Heavy Metal in VFR??

[pax britanica]

I wonder if come kind controller can answer a question I have wondered about several tmes.
Driving today between Camberley and Farnborough I saw a large 4 piston airliner-DC6 and a smaller 2 engine one flying in formation just blelow the cloud base heading roughly N-S over Farnbough airfield.I subsequently found from PPrune that theywere headed for Dunsfold.
Now living near Camberley I am iued to seeing what at times is a sky full of LHR inbound and outbounds Gatwick inbounds -flights from Luton Stanstead etc and I understand these are all essentially seperated by using different levels. Flying below all this is lots of GA stuff and Helicopters from /to Blackbushe , FairOaks, W Waltham plus Farnborough Biz jets and Odiham military.
I have often wondered I wondered what happens when some seriously large low level aircraft get involvedin using these low levels like today or as I used to see from my old office nearer Reading anonomous smoky DC8s and 727s at low level 1000-1500 ft headed to or from Lasham
I understand how the airline stuff is seprated from itself and the light stuff. And the light stuff is small and no doubt OK with VFR but when a unwieldy thing like a formation betweena DC6 and Dove or a smoking lo vis grey DC8 is kept out of the way of all the Cessnas Pipers Etc Etc -are the light aircraft told of a large aircraft transit-are they grounded temporarily or what. It really struck me today because the Dc6 and its little friend were very close to the cloud base in pretty poor visibility and as a formation I don think they could manouver as quickly to avoid a conflict as could saya Blackbushe based cessna 152.
Long winded-Im sorry- but how do you folks keep these dramatically different types apart at these very low levels
thanks
PB

[ToweringCu]

Most of the time we don't. They are VFR (visual flight rules) and responsible for seeing and separating themselves from any conflicting traffic. They may or may not receive traffic info, but the responsibility for seeing and avoiding is theirs. That's why you don't see large airliners flying outside controlled airspace VFR very often.

[PA7]

Atlantic formation was in receipt of a RIS and was passed traffic info.

[NudgingSteel]

As mentioned....aircraft operating VFR outside controlled airspace are responsible for their own separation. This is true regardless of the aircraft size or speed. (There's a speed limit of 250 knots to assist with this visual task). In practise, whenever such a large aircraft like those you mentioned is operating outside the protection of controlled airspace, they will often use a radar service such as the RIS mentioned (ATC will tell them about other traffic, but it's entirely up to the crew to visually acquire it and then avoid it - a handy service but subject to lots of things like ATC traffic loading, radar coverage etc).
In practise too, it should be easier for a pilot flying their C152 around to see a DC8 heading towards them, than it often is to see gliders or other light GA traffic....

[Have heard stories from 'the old days' of Vulcans transiting the Manchester low-level VFR corridor - that must have been a sight for opposite direction traffic to suddenly encounter!]

[Talkdownman]

The jet aircraft positioning to/from maintenance at Lasham operate on IFR flight plans. Arriving aircraft descend to not below the MSA under RIS from Farnborough and/or Lasham then further within the Lasham RVA under SRA. Departing aircraft depart IFR under RIS from Farnborough and/or Lasham. These procedures are only available to specifically approved operators. It is very rare for pilots of such aircraft to elect to fly outside CAS for the entire positioning flight to/from aerodromes beneath the London TMA because of the very concerns highlighted by 'pax britanica'.

[chevvron]

Aircraft to/from Lasham for maintenance are NOT descended to 1500ft over Camberley if leaving airways; they might pass just south of Camberley decending though depending on runway in use at Lasham.

[pax britanica]

Thanks to all for being kind enough to take the trouble to reply.

For Chevron -regarding the Lasham aircraft I have never seen these that close to Camberley and would not expect to but I thought I mentioned that when I worked in Reading for a whileIoccasionally saw the lasham bound 'classic -vintage even- jets them flying low roughly parrallel to the A331? Reading to Basingstoke road
PB

[White Hart]

The jet aircraft positioning to/from maintenance at Lasham operate on IFR flight plans. .

Not always, they don't. I have filed VFR FPLs for a B727 going out of Lasham on a number of occasions.

[aluminium persuader]

I've worked Concorde when it arrived early, cancelled the IFR plan & went VFR for a wander around. Had a PA38 at 2.0 or 2.5 & Conc went underneath him! :ok:

[chevvron]

White Hart - don't argue with Talkdownman; it makes him angry; you wouldn't like him when he's angry.

[White Hart]

who's arguing? :hmm:

[Talkdownman]

I'm not.
Who's angry?

[throw a dyce]

Pax,
The military do a lot of low-level flying in Scotland and they don't talk to anyone.Tornados,Jaguars,F15's,F16's,Harriers are quite common at 500kts.I have also seen C130's,B52's and the good old Vulcan all at tree level.Even Spitfires,Hurricanes,Mustangs,and a Lanc if there's an air display on.
In the good old days I talked to Bac 111 that came up the Stonehaven lane.We also had a C17 that did the same for some training.If the pilot wants to go VFR then,that ok traffic permitting.Mind you there are probably''[email protected]'' that prevent it now.
It can be a bit on an airshow sometimes;)

[NorthSouth]

I have also seen C130'sC130's what?

[AlanM]

Chevvron - don't argue with Talkdownman; it makes him angry; you wouldn't like him when he's angry.

[throw a dyce]

C130 is a Hercules.Very impressive at 250 ft:ok:

[letMfly]

Pax,
The military do a lot of low-level flying in Scotland and they don't talk to anyone.Tornados,Jaguars,F15's,F16's,Harriers are quite common at 500kts.I have also seen C130's,B52's and the good old Vulcan all at tree level.Even Spitfires,Hurricanes,Mustangs,and a Lanc if there's an air display on.
In the good old days I talked to Bac 111 that came up the Stonehaven lane.We also had a C17 that did the same for some training.If the pilot wants to go VFR then,that ok traffic permitting.Mind you there are probably''[email protected]'' that prevent it now.
It can be a bit on an airshow sometimes;)
Throw a Dyce
Don't forget the BOAC Viscount that used to flog between Dyce and Prestwick VFR much of the time. (Maybe that was before you were born!):ok:

[chevvron]

I've done 500ft across Scapa Flow in a BEA Viscount; didn't know BOAC had ever operated them!
The there was the day the Viscount from Macrihanish (aka Campbelltown) called downwind at Glasgow; we couldn't see it because he was low level along the Clyde until he climbed to go over the Erskine Bridge!

[letMfly]

I've done 500ft across Scapa Flow in a BEA Viscount; didn't know BOAC had ever operated them!
BOAC had two 700 series Viscounts based at Prestwick in the early to mid 70s. They operated a feeder service from Aberdeen and, I believe, Edinburgh or Belfast to connect to the transatlantic flights which BOAC then operated. They were painted in full BOAC colours and used the Speedbird callsign (not Beeline). They were repainted in British Airways colours shortly before retirement.

[NorthSouth]

C130 is a Hercules.Very impressive at 250 ft:ok:Ah, I see my question went over your head. Just picking at your use of apostrophes (or as you might say, apostrophe's).
NS
aka Apostrophe Police

[NorthSouth]

BOAC had two 700 series Viscounts based at Prestwick in the early to mid 70sI believe one of them's about to go to East Fortune.
NS

[ekatehtnohsabuD]

Just thought you guys might like to know that in addition to the DC6 (Air Atlantic) there was a Virgin Atlantic A340-300 GVHOL at Dunsfold on 2nd June - did a 200ft flypast then a go around before landing. Very spectacular. Was there for filming of new Bond movie. Stayed overnight.

[throw a dyce]

NorthSouth,
Yes I have been nicked by the Apostrophe rozzers.Guilty I'm afraid.Drunk and disorderly in charge of a computer:= .Wait to you see a B52 at 250ft:eek: .
LetMfly,
Well you are showing your age now.You're right about BOAC Viscounts being before my time,although I do remember racing down to see the Vanguard at Dyce in BEA colours.But then I am 5+ years younger than you.:ok:

[Jay Doubleyou]

Came late to this thread, but mention of the Vanguard recalls an incident from my youth at Aldergrove in 1965. BEA had a fleet of three Heralds (GAPWB to WD) which flew Scottish internal services but had a daily return trip Glasgow (Renfrew, so that dates it a bit!) to Belfast.
The Heralds had a construction problem came to light, and caused them to be flown unpressurised for a while, the evening Belfast-Glasgow went at 3000ft VFR!
All was fine until one night, the "Mainline" crew due to fly the next Belfast-Glasgow schedule with a Vanguard, happened to meet the Herald crew in flight planning and compared notes. The Vanguard crew thought that this VFR thing might be a "bit of fun", and a time saver, so they filed VFR, and, of course Scottish (Airways) didn't get the Fpl., it only went to the FIR.
About 10min after it left, we got a very pained 'phone call from the Scottish sector controller (D-man) saying please don't do that again, as they were still trying to revive his Radar man. It seems that the sight of a very large, unknown, primary (only) radar blip doing 340 knots arrowing straight for base leg at Renfrew was more than fleash and blood could stand!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I've worked Concorde when it arrived early, cancelled the IFR plan & went VFR for a wander around. >>

When it arrived where "early".

[throw a dyce]

HD,
Ah but you ain't seen it (Concorde) coming round the corner past the Checker Board at Kai Tak.:mad: Awesome.
Nearly got 3 B52's do to a flypast at ISZ many lunar new years ago.Also saw the last 5 Shackeltons fly past on their farewell drone of Scotland.
Ah well,DD in charge of a computer again.........

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

throw a dyce.. I would agree that Heathrow is hardly the place for anything too much out of the ordinary but I've had a Sunderland do a low run... see F-111s light the sky at 2am (they used to do runs after their training missions until the local populace got narked at their sleep being disturbed) and I've seen a War Bird (Fairey Firefly?) do a barrel roll down rwy 05 whilst we were running traffic on 28R and 28L! Quite enough to obviate the need for Exlax.

[Jay Doubleyou]

About 10 years ago on Jersey Approach, quiet sunny morning, I got free call from a formation of EIGHT Sea Stallions wanting to transit overhead from EGUN to LETO, VFR.
Not being flavour of the month with admin, I felt a little pay-back coming on!
The formation offered to climb, but I declined and gave them an advisory radar track to "keep clear of the circuit traffic." Just by chance,:hmm: this took them overhead the field, past (and almost level with!) the tower and down the main road to the local supermarket at about 200ft! A colleague, coming back from the shops, came over the hill and met this lot going the other way, thought he'd slipped in to a 'Nam epic, took him most of the day to get his hearing back!

[Wycombe]

Saw a DC10 leave Fairford this afternoon and route outside CAS over to Farnborough.

The Mil controller passed mutliple contacts to the aircraft, then said "Can't get Farnborough on the land-line, free-call them 125.25".

This seems a little foolhardy in such busy Class G airspace, doesn't it?

[av8boy]

... see F-111s light the sky at 2am... (etc, etc)

And for the other end of the spectrum... I spent my formative ATC years working at a very busy general aviation airport in S. California. One year there was a major golf tournament at a course very near the airport, and the tourney was covered from the air by cameras in one of Goodyear's blimps. One evening a few days into the tourney, when the blimp driver advised that he was heading back to his base for the night, I asked him whether he'd like a low approach to our airport before he left. He indicated that this was something they never get to do, and accepted my invitation.

Seven-mile straight-in at 20 knots. They didn't even really screw up the traffic until they got to a mile-and-a-half final or so, because I kept putting stuff in front of him till then.

What really amazed me is how this airship filled the windows of the tower. Being a g/a airport, the tower is closer to the runway than at the international airports I've worked, and this 60 foot tall by 200 foot long 20 knot behemoth with its tens of thousands of LEDs was quite startling to behold. He did his low approach (probably 50 AGL), got to the end of the runway, made a 90 degree left turn, pointed the nose toward the sky and was on his way.

Scared the hell out of me. :eek: Never offered it again. One of the other controllers video taped it, but I've lost track of the guy and don't have a copy of it myself.

Dave

[chevvron]

Wycombe: I agree, especially as the LARS controller would definitely not want a DC10 on his/her frequency instead of the notified approach frequency!