Heavy Metal in VFR??
Thread Starter
Heavy Metal in VFR??
I wonder if come kind controller can answer a question I have wondered about several tmes.
Driving today between Camberley and Farnborough I saw a large 4 piston airliner-DC6 and a smaller 2 engine one flying in formation just blelow the cloud base heading roughly N-S over Farnbough airfield.I subsequently found from PPrune that theywere headed for Dunsfold.
Now living near Camberley I am iued to seeing what at times is a sky full of LHR inbound and outbounds Gatwick inbounds -flights from Luton Stanstead etc and I understand these are all essentially seperated by using different levels. Flying below all this is lots of GA stuff and Helicopters from /to Blackbushe , FairOaks, W Waltham plus Farnborough Biz jets and Odiham military.
I have often wondered I wondered what happens when some seriously large low level aircraft get involvedin using these low levels like today or as I used to see from my old office nearer Reading anonomous smoky DC8s and 727s at low level 1000-1500 ft headed to or from Lasham
I understand how the airline stuff is seprated from itself and the light stuff. And the light stuff is small and no doubt OK with VFR but when a unwieldy thing like a formation betweena DC6 and Dove or a smoking lo vis grey DC8 is kept out of the way of all the Cessnas Pipers Etc Etc -are the light aircraft told of a large aircraft transit-are they grounded temporarily or what. It really struck me today because the Dc6 and its little friend were very close to the cloud base in pretty poor visibility and as a formation I don think they could manouver as quickly to avoid a conflict as could saya Blackbushe based cessna 152.
Long winded-Im sorry- but how do you folks keep these dramatically different types apart at these very low levels
thanks
PB
Driving today between Camberley and Farnborough I saw a large 4 piston airliner-DC6 and a smaller 2 engine one flying in formation just blelow the cloud base heading roughly N-S over Farnbough airfield.I subsequently found from PPrune that theywere headed for Dunsfold.
Now living near Camberley I am iued to seeing what at times is a sky full of LHR inbound and outbounds Gatwick inbounds -flights from Luton Stanstead etc and I understand these are all essentially seperated by using different levels. Flying below all this is lots of GA stuff and Helicopters from /to Blackbushe , FairOaks, W Waltham plus Farnborough Biz jets and Odiham military.
I have often wondered I wondered what happens when some seriously large low level aircraft get involvedin using these low levels like today or as I used to see from my old office nearer Reading anonomous smoky DC8s and 727s at low level 1000-1500 ft headed to or from Lasham
I understand how the airline stuff is seprated from itself and the light stuff. And the light stuff is small and no doubt OK with VFR but when a unwieldy thing like a formation betweena DC6 and Dove or a smoking lo vis grey DC8 is kept out of the way of all the Cessnas Pipers Etc Etc -are the light aircraft told of a large aircraft transit-are they grounded temporarily or what. It really struck me today because the Dc6 and its little friend were very close to the cloud base in pretty poor visibility and as a formation I don think they could manouver as quickly to avoid a conflict as could saya Blackbushe based cessna 152.
Long winded-Im sorry- but how do you folks keep these dramatically different types apart at these very low levels
thanks
PB
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Most of the time we don't. They are VFR (visual flight rules) and responsible for seeing and separating themselves from any conflicting traffic. They may or may not receive traffic info, but the responsibility for seeing and avoiding is theirs. That's why you don't see large airliners flying outside controlled airspace VFR very often.
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As mentioned....aircraft operating VFR outside controlled airspace are responsible for their own separation. This is true regardless of the aircraft size or speed. (There's a speed limit of 250 knots to assist with this visual task). In practise, whenever such a large aircraft like those you mentioned is operating outside the protection of controlled airspace, they will often use a radar service such as the RIS mentioned (ATC will tell them about other traffic, but it's entirely up to the crew to visually acquire it and then avoid it - a handy service but subject to lots of things like ATC traffic loading, radar coverage etc).
In practise too, it should be easier for a pilot flying their C152 around to see a DC8 heading towards them, than it often is to see gliders or other light GA traffic....
[Have heard stories from 'the old days' of Vulcans transiting the Manchester low-level VFR corridor - that must have been a sight for opposite direction traffic to suddenly encounter!]
In practise too, it should be easier for a pilot flying their C152 around to see a DC8 heading towards them, than it often is to see gliders or other light GA traffic....
[Have heard stories from 'the old days' of Vulcans transiting the Manchester low-level VFR corridor - that must have been a sight for opposite direction traffic to suddenly encounter!]
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The jet aircraft positioning to/from maintenance at Lasham operate on IFR flight plans. Arriving aircraft descend to not below the MSA under RIS from Farnborough and/or Lasham then further within the Lasham RVA under SRA. Departing aircraft depart IFR under RIS from Farnborough and/or Lasham. These procedures are only available to specifically approved operators. It is very rare for pilots of such aircraft to elect to fly outside CAS for the entire positioning flight to/from aerodromes beneath the London TMA because of the very concerns highlighted by 'pax britanica'.
Aircraft to/from Lasham for maintenance are NOT descended to 1500ft over Camberley if leaving airways; they might pass just south of Camberley decending though depending on runway in use at Lasham.
Thread Starter
Thanks to all for being kind enough to take the trouble to reply.
For Chevron -regarding the Lasham aircraft I have never seen these that close to Camberley and would not expect to but I thought I mentioned that when I worked in Reading for a whileIoccasionally saw the lasham bound 'classic -vintage even- jets them flying low roughly parrallel to the A331? Reading to Basingstoke road
PB
For Chevron -regarding the Lasham aircraft I have never seen these that close to Camberley and would not expect to but I thought I mentioned that when I worked in Reading for a whileIoccasionally saw the lasham bound 'classic -vintage even- jets them flying low roughly parrallel to the A331? Reading to Basingstoke road
PB
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Originally Posted by Talkdownman
The jet aircraft positioning to/from maintenance at Lasham operate on IFR flight plans. .
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Pax,
The military do a lot of low-level flying in Scotland and they don't talk to anyone.Tornados,Jaguars,F15's,F16's,Harriers are quite common at 500kts.I have also seen C130's,B52's and the good old Vulcan all at tree level.Even Spitfires,Hurricanes,Mustangs,and a Lanc if there's an air display on.
In the good old days I talked to Bac 111 that came up the Stonehaven lane.We also had a C17 that did the same for some training.If the pilot wants to go VFR then,that ok traffic permitting.Mind you there are probably''[email protected]'' that prevent it now.
It can be a bit on an airshow sometimes
The military do a lot of low-level flying in Scotland and they don't talk to anyone.Tornados,Jaguars,F15's,F16's,Harriers are quite common at 500kts.I have also seen C130's,B52's and the good old Vulcan all at tree level.Even Spitfires,Hurricanes,Mustangs,and a Lanc if there's an air display on.
In the good old days I talked to Bac 111 that came up the Stonehaven lane.We also had a C17 that did the same for some training.If the pilot wants to go VFR then,that ok traffic permitting.Mind you there are probably''[email protected]'' that prevent it now.
It can be a bit on an airshow sometimes
Originally Posted by throw a dyce
Pax,
The military do a lot of low-level flying in Scotland and they don't talk to anyone.Tornados,Jaguars,F15's,F16's,Harriers are quite common at 500kts.I have also seen C130's,B52's and the good old Vulcan all at tree level.Even Spitfires,Hurricanes,Mustangs,and a Lanc if there's an air display on.
In the good old days I talked to Bac 111 that came up the Stonehaven lane.We also had a C17 that did the same for some training.If the pilot wants to go VFR then,that ok traffic permitting.Mind you there are probably''[email protected]'' that prevent it now.
It can be a bit on an airshow sometimes
The military do a lot of low-level flying in Scotland and they don't talk to anyone.Tornados,Jaguars,F15's,F16's,Harriers are quite common at 500kts.I have also seen C130's,B52's and the good old Vulcan all at tree level.Even Spitfires,Hurricanes,Mustangs,and a Lanc if there's an air display on.
In the good old days I talked to Bac 111 that came up the Stonehaven lane.We also had a C17 that did the same for some training.If the pilot wants to go VFR then,that ok traffic permitting.Mind you there are probably''[email protected]'' that prevent it now.
It can be a bit on an airshow sometimes
Don't forget the BOAC Viscount that used to flog between Dyce and Prestwick VFR much of the time. (Maybe that was before you were born!)
I've done 500ft across Scapa Flow in a BEA Viscount; didn't know BOAC had ever operated them!
The there was the day the Viscount from Macrihanish (aka Campbelltown) called downwind at Glasgow; we couldn't see it because he was low level along the Clyde until he climbed to go over the Erskine Bridge!
The there was the day the Viscount from Macrihanish (aka Campbelltown) called downwind at Glasgow; we couldn't see it because he was low level along the Clyde until he climbed to go over the Erskine Bridge!
I've done 500ft across Scapa Flow in a BEA Viscount; didn't know BOAC had ever operated them!
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Originally Posted by throw a dyce
C130 is a Hercules.Very impressive at 250 ft
NS
aka Apostrophe Police