nav canada

[wizad]

hi guys,

is there anyone on here from nav canada,or even better has made the move from the uk over the pond?
i have an aerodrome and area rating and currently spend my days at a certain london tma......
any pm's would be greatfully welcomed as i have a few questions i would like to ask away from the eyes of the public forums on the issues of employment.

w

[squibbler]

Feel to free to PM me with any questions you have. I left EGGP for Nav Can in January this year and work at CYQT tower - and loving it :ok:

[Married a Canadian]

Wizad

If you work for NATS you will find it EXTREMELY difficult to transfer at this point in time due to "political" reasons!

I think I was the last NATS guy to transfer and I had to jump through hoops!

PM me for info.

If you don't work for NATS right now..then it should be straightforward enough if you can pass the controller interviews they do here and there are enough Brits over here now that you could probably get the whole paper and interview in advance from us and enough advice to keep you going

[Jerricho]

Hi Wizad,

I haven't heard much from the "Experienced Controller Program" here in Canada at the moment. The lovely lady who was the focal point for it has recently left for greener pastures and I'm not sure who the new person is.

Chances are if you work in a certain London TMA, you worked with me. PM away.

[cossack]

I've been at YYZ Tower for 3 years now and still loving every minute of it. It has gone relatively quiet as far as offshore hires goes. We've got an ex-USAF guy started here recently, so openings are still available. The "agreement" between NC and NATS is probably still there, but be persistent and I'm sure they'll listen.

[Number2]

I was under the impression that most NATS recruits came and went scurrying back. Well done to those that made it.

I did hear a rumour that a Norwegian from Oslo has been offered YVR ACC next year.....

As for the 'lovely lady' in recruitment. She's now at Transport Canada.

[Married a Canadian]

Guy from Auckland approach to start in YYZ terminal in the autumn aswell I believe.

The NATS recruits that came "scurrying" back from what I heard fell foul of when the system over here was a bit of a mess regarding training and the like. Since I have been over here in YYZ NAV Canada have bent over backwards to help me and training has been a priority for them. None of the scare stories I heard came to fruition.

I am sure Jerricho and cossack and all the rest would agree with me. If you can somehow bypass the "agreement" (which is still in place!) you will find an excellent country to live in and not a bad wee company aswell.

Better logo also!

[AlanM]

I had to jump through hoops!


Hell - getting married to a local bird is quite a hoop.

[Lock n' Load]

Before heading west, make sure you have all the facts!

Good points:-
Canada is a great country to live in, and probably a much better place to raise kids than the UK.
The money goes a long way here.
Canadians are, for the most part, much more friendly and helpful than most Brits, and that goes for businesses and even some governmental office types as well as neighbours and service-industry people.
Controllers seem to have more fun at work than in the UK.

Bad points:-
Training, especially in Edmonton ACC.
The seniority system - you will be at the bottom of the leave roster for years.
Leave entitlement sucks.
Having to "earn" sick leave.
Procedural control is a reality here, and in even in the terminal environment there's more procedural separation applied (mainly with trainers doing approaches to satellite airfields) than you might expect.

Edmonton ACC has the worst reputation among the centres for morale and training, followed by Winnipeg. My advice is to go to either Toronto or Moncton Centre (at the latter, you'll get a HUGE house for decent money) or to go to a tower where, in general, they seem to have more fun despite less money.

[cossack]

I agree with what LnL says for positives.
The seniority system - you will be at the bottom of the leave roster for years.I still am and got all the leave I was after for the second year running!
Leave entitlement sucks.Its not the same as NATS but I've got no complaints. Its better than the USA for sure.
or to go to a tower where, in general, they seem to have more fun despite less money.Not all towers earn less money you know!:ok:

[Jerricho]

I'll third comments regarding the "seniority" system. I was never made full aware of how it worked until I started (yes, that is my fault) and the implications it can have (believe me, you can get screwed over very easily when it comes to taking leave).

[ATSA_Grunt]

Several of my friends went to Canada acc's. Have spoke to 3 of them that came back and asked the reasons why they returned...

They said basically the treatment they get is horrendous. You are not allowed to sit on the same table in the canteen as valid ATCO's. Under no circumstances should you EVER change the channel on the TV and so on. One of my friends turned up at a validation drinks party to be told he was not welcome as he was a "Trainee"!!!

Told him "Now you know what it feels like to be an ATSA!!". He said we get treated better!!

They have no SRATCO, and most do overtime getting only one or two days off a month (through choice). So if they keep validating new controllers the overtime will dissappear (in their eyes). Hence the reason for their treatment.

You have been warned!!

If anyone else know's different then add a post...

[Married a Canadian]

The unit that got all the scare stories was Edmonton. A couple of my friends who came back had been posted there. I know NAV Canada has made a concerted effort to clean up that side of things.

YYZ is nothing like that...and I have heard good stories about YVR aswell. Maybe Jerricho can elaborate on YWG?

If you are coming over as an experienced controller you have nothing to worry about as you may have been in the game longer than some of your colleagues. They do respect that over here (in YYZ anyway).

However you are still starting as a trainee and it dosen't matter where you are in the world it still means that you have to accept that you "know less" than before and you aren't as senior as you may have been back home. If you want to put your head above the parapet and act like a and be a know it all then I'm sure the reaction would be the same at West Drayton as it would be in Canada.

Act like a professional and I have found they treat you like one here.

[Jerricho]

Act like a professional and I have found they treat you like one here.

Very wise words.

However, I have unfortunately witnessed similar attitudes as outlined by Mr ATSA_Grunt. Here in YWG there is the "trainee couch" at the back of the TV room where the ab-initios sit and madly study their ManOps. It's also deemed unacceptable for a trainee to attend a check-out party, even if it was his/her best mate (the check-out party itself is a strange concept for an import like me, but that's another story)

It seems to be a self-perpetuating problem and a strange one at that. It's not written down anywhere nor would anyone actually openly support the attitude, but it's there. And from what I can gather, it always has been. I find it strange as Nav Canada are very forthright in making all staff aware of the Code of Conduct, Respectful Workplace and alike, yet stuff like this seems to be ingrained to the core. I'll bet there hasn't been one trainee that didn't think it sucked to be treated like that, but when the tables are turned...........

[cossack]

I'm also in YYZ, but not the ACC, and I was treated brilliantly from day one. I have no complaints about training or the attutudes of those around me.
I came here with 15 years experience, realising that I was going to be a trainee again. Being a trainee at anything sucks and ATC is no different. You may have done things differently where you were before, but if that's not how its done here, then don't do it like that! And certainly don't keep banging on about "we didn't do that in the UK, we did this..."
The check-out party is a strange concept to me too. There has only been one in the 3 years I've been here, mine! (joint with 2 others).
People do like the OT there's no denying that. Whether that is the reason for regulating check-outs, I doubt.
We are short of staff. Fact.
Everyone in the tower could max out every period if they wanted to. Fact.
Do trainees get canned to maintain the shortage here? No.
Why do trainees get CTd? Not able to meet the standard required. Fact.
I'm sure there are units in the UK and elsewhere where these anti-social behaviours can be found.

[CZYZ_QQ]

do any of you (ex-UKers) that came over to Nav know if there is a similar program with NATS? LACC is on my radar and am interested in getting contact info for the people that make these decisions...

Tks

[cossack]

There was a thread on here about the NATS "experienced controller program". Those that contacted NATS were not exactly swamped with information and invitations to apply. Whether things have changed, I don't know.
In the past NATS have required experienced controllers to undergo the full training course. I don't know if this is still the case.
I think this was more likely a testing of the water to see how many people might be interested without actually having a program or even a plan in place.
There have been persistent rumours that NATS and Nav Can came to a "gentleman's agreement" to not recruit from NATS to Canada anymore. Whether this "agreement" would be bi-lateral, I also don't know.
It seems I don't know much!
BTW Give your head a shake for even thinking of it;)

[CZYZ_QQ]

BTW Give your head a shake for even thinking of it;)

Are you saying moving from the Great White North (ok not so white in summer) to the UK to control wouldn't be the best of choices?

[Number2]

IMHO, it would be a huge error and achieve little.....

[cossack]

If I were in your position, knowing what I know now, moving from here to the UK would not be a consideration.
If you do manage to get HR to acknowledge you exist, get a course (full or otherwise) and move to the UK at base of scale living in the south of England, you would not be improving your quality of life.
If you want to do it as a means of living in another country for a few years, then knock yourself out. But as a long-term career move, no.

[CZYZ_QQ]

well when you are paying an avg of $1,000 per ticket (avg throughout the year) to travel to see my gf (future wife if things continue) and I will be over between 12 and 14 times this year, it makes sense to move... Besides, from what I have heard, the job is alot more challenging in the UK.

Can you give some good ideas as to why I shouldn't move?

[cossack]

Well now that we have a bit more pertinent information!
Why doesn't she come over here? My wife loves it here and would not go back to live in the UK, except Scotland where she's from.

[Number2]

Reasons not to move?

Cost of housing
Price of petrol, sorry gas
Overcrowded Island
Putting yourself through training again, inc some sort of basic course
Work will eventually feel just the same
Overall quality of life

UK is great to visit, never missed it tho......

Move the significant other to Canada, definitely the way ahead.

[ex-EGLL]

Can't argue with Number2. Made the move 25 years ago and never once considered returning

ex-egll

[Married a Canadian]

Can't argue with what has been said but what I can say if you have never lived abroad before and have the chance..... go for it.

It gives you a new outlook on life and a broader view of things that you don't get if you are just visiting a country.

I would caution with NATS though....we hardly ever saw foreign controllers coming in which makes me wonder if they are being scared off!

[Jerricho]

From the point of view of an import who has done the foreigner thing in both countries, I must agree with comments regarding the UK being a very expensive, very densely populated little island. The house we purchased here in Winnipeg has an unfinished basement that is twice the size of the semi-detached house we had in Farnham, and nearly cost us in dollars what we sold our UK house for in pounds. In the UK I couldn't afford to insure my Impreza WRX (if you could find a company that would), here not an issue. I'll probably sound a little like a tree hugging hippie, but the pollution level here is nothing (ok, conceed Toronto and alike are a little different). The prairies (Winnipeg/Calgary/Edmonton) can be a little red-neckie, but the people are friendly and the weather is great (although you do get some wicket cb lines come through that make life a little interesting. The last traffic jam I sat in was due to LONG train, and it was my fault for trying to be smart and take a short cut. Waking up in the morning and having to clear a couple of feet of snow off your driveway can be a little daunting (or if you come out after a night shift and find your car buried can p*ss you off a little). But you know you're alive when you experience minus 40 BEFORE windchill (wet hair freezes, your eyelids can freeze shut and your car makes some very strange noises.......best remember to plug the block heater in :ok: )

Job wise, they do things a little different, say things a little differently............but in the end it's 5 miles (or 3 ;) ) and 1000 thousand feet (although brush up on procedural for some places in Canada).