Flight Planning Software

[Tolka]

I am thinking about buying a VFR flight planning software package such as NavBox or Jeppesen Flightstar VFR. Does anyone have any experience of these or other packages. Do you have any recommendations. Do the packages print out a full flight log? Any other information would be helpful.

Tolka

[pulse1]

I have used Navbox Quickplan for many years and find it excellent value. You can print out a plog for the out and return trips and it is easy to edit or modify. In fact, as long as it is up to date, it gives all the information you require except for NOTAMS and weather. The only improvement I can think of would be heights for controlled airspace and danger areas.

[Mike Cross]

I use NavBox ProPlan and it's brill. Others have suggested that Jepp is more suitable for IFR and NavBox better for VFR.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

NavBox is good for plotting out plogs. Jepp Flitestar is handy for the vertical profile option and the display of controlled airspace. Flitestar also lets you print out sections of Jepp format charts so you can make a route chart for longer trips.
In the UK the CAA charts in MemoryMap are good as you can rubber band your route to avoid controlled airspace and then download it to the GPS or run with it on a PDA. Just check that you have the latest charts or make allowances for changes in airspace. Flying with the PDA display means that you are on an electronic version of the chart you have on your knee.
I’m just down loading PocketFMS to the PDA, having been out and bought a 1Gb compact flash card. PocketFMS is the cheapest, even if you make the donation and get the upgrade:ok: . You’d probably need broadband to download it to your PC economically.
Just a thought. If you do create a route in one flight planning program and down-load it to your GPS, try the GPS in simulator mode feeding in to a different moving map program (some of the planning programs will work as moving maps). It will show up any nasties before you blunder in to controlled airspace.
Happy Planning & Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[IO540]

My view, despite being a self confessed fan of electronic gadgets in the cockpit, is that for VFR flight planning one needs to have the printed chart. This chart is then used for planning the terrain and airspace avoidance.

Then it's a case of which software one likes for generating the plog.

I'd steer well away from using any flight planning software for any kind of vertical navigation. The only use of it, IMHO, is in accurately calculating fuel usage through climbs and descents, but you won't be doing that kind of stuff unless you have an accurate flowmeter (linked to the GPS), know the aircraft, know about engine management, and are pushing the range of the (accurately characterised) aircraft. In other words, for typical VFR flying, you won't be doing that anyway :O

To get VFR charts in Flitestar you need to purchase their Raster Charts add-on, about £200 for Europe. You can then print out en route sections as required. This is an acceptable alternative to the printed charts (both legally and to me) and is cheaper than buying all the charts for Europe. But, IMHO, the CAA charts are much clearer for the UK.

Which takes us to Memory Map. Even though this is the only product which can run the CAA charts officially (Oziexplorer can run any map if you can "obtain" a scanned copy) I'd steer away from it because it is a dead end - unless you never intend to venture outside the UK.

Which is why I use Navbox Pro myself, for VFR, or for UK-style IFR (Class G or D).

IFR (airways) is something else. Flitestar IFR is the only suitable product on the UK market, although Navbox Pro will hack away at it well enough if you stick to routes that get through CFMU without too much work.

[WorkingHard]

Agree entirely with IO540. Navbox is just right for VFR

[Aussie Andy]

Agree with IO540 -- for VFR in UK / Europe NavBox is the way to go! I have bene using this happily for a number of years...

Andy :ok:

[FullyFlapped]

Does Navbox Pro have moving map support for a PDA (pocket PC) ? I know it has this feature on a PC ...

I use a combination of Flitestar/FliteMap on a tablet PC and Memory Map on a PDA ... have looked at Navbox in the past, but was put off by the lack of detail on the maps and lack of PDA support. If it's all much better now, I guess I'll have to look again ...

FF :ok:

[IO540]

No pocket/pc version of Navbox. They planned one but it never came.

No detailed maps in Navbox. The maps are more bare than Jepp's base maps, making it less than useful IMHO with a GPS input.

Flitemap (Flitestar with GPS input option) is adequate with the Jepp base data (if you have a printed chart to hand, and correlate the airspace shapes) and pretty slick with their Raster Charts. But it has been discontinued, though data updates are still available (they are the same as for Flitestar).

However, I was once flying along somewhere near Greece and found a ~ 5 mile error between Flitemap, and my KLN94/KMD550. I checked and cross-checked with VORs etc, and a PDA GPS running Oziexplorer. Flitemap was the odd one out. I rebooted the tablet PC and from then on it was fine. Very odd... just that one occassion but it has me worried. I don't know if this bug was quietly fixed with their update patch (on their website) which is meant to fix the "plain text" input mode crashing (and it does).

[pulse1]

As I said earlier, I have always used Navbox Quickplan which seems to do all I want for VFR flights. What additional features does Navbox Pro have for VFR flight which justify the much higher price?

[Aussie Andy]

What additional features does Navbox Pro have for VFR flight which justify the much higher price?Main one from my perspective is that it has a GPS interface... so I can easily knock up a plan, print the PLOG, and with a few extra clicks I can also have the route in my GPS-III, which obvisouly avoids making silly errrors with Lat/Long etc. It also lets you see your track form the GPS when you return, but I use www.goflying.org for that these days.

Andy :ok:

[Mike Cross]

Errrr....

Wot's wrong wiv using a proper GPS wiv a proper updatable Jepp database and uploading your route from Navbox? That way you get runway headings, freqs etc.

Being a bear of very little mental capacity I prefer a "track up" orientation so all I have to do is keep the little aeroplane on the line that's running vertically up my screen. Fortunately this is not too difficult so I have plenty of time to indulge in plane-spotting. The downside of Memory Map is that, while it can give you "track up" it can't turn the place names the right way up so you either spend your time figuring whether it's a right or left turn to regain track or else you try to turn your head upside down to work out the name of that airfield in your 2 o'clock.

Oh - and the other thing was that the pocket PC I was using kept crashing (is Windoze the best OS for aviating?)

Mike

[Aussie Andy]

I would suggest an embedded OS, as in a proper GPS, is more reliable than either Pocket PC or Windoze mate!

Andy :ok:

[IO540]

I agree completely re windoze (or the products running under it, one can never tell) being too unstable for serious usage.

It's just that

a) Dedicated aviation GPSs tend to be rather limited functionally, and

b) Some people want to do other things with the unit, e.g. run windoze-based flight planning software on it, or get internet access for weather etc.

I think far and away the best aviation GPS is the new Avmap EKP IV (about £1050 from Harry M) - the only real drawback is that there is as yet no Navbox interface for it for route download.

I have just bought the Motion LS800 tablet, so watch this space :O

[Chilli Monster]

Wot's wrong wiv using a proper GPS wiv a proper updatable Jepp database and uploading your route from Navbox? That way you get runway headings, freqs etc.

You can't upload additional data into a certified GPS - the data itself needs to be certified.

Therefore no external route upload into systems like GNS430/530.

[IO540]

It would not take more than a day to reverse engineer the garmin crossfill protocol. You would need an ARINC protocol analyser. Then, potentially any flight planning program could do it.

It would not be legal, but would be a super feature.

It's probably been done, but it's unlikely to be advertised :O

Being able to plan your route and then view your progress over that same planned route is a major advance in safety, as it eliminates the most common human errors. It's a shame that we live in such an anally retentive world.

Mind you, being able to connect a keypad to these units would go a long way...

[dublinpilot]

I would suggest an embedded OS, as in a proper GPS, is more reliable than either Pocket PC or Windoze mate!

While I don't disagree with what you are saying, or what IO540 is saying, some of us use a PDA solution, and are very happy with it. A PDA does have many advantages, including development.

For example my pda is about 2, maybe 3 years old. If I had purchased a Garmin at the time, I'd be looking at the great new models released since then and with all the feature that I don't have. But with PocketFMS, I just download the latest version and instantly have all th new features.

I also feel that the PocketFMS team are much closer to their customers than Garmin, in that they readily take suggestions and incorporate them into the next version.

Reliability was an issue when I first started using it 2-3 years ago, but that seems to be something that is simply a distant memory; at least for me.

But more than anything I would say it's biggest advantages are the layout and clarity of the display, the ability to customise it significantly, and the seamless integration with the PC. All preflight and post flight work can be done on a pc, and simply synced with the PDA.

The major disadvantage is the PDA's screen readability in strong sunlight. I find the Garmins screen to be more readable in direct sunlight. I would also trust the Garmin (Jeppesen) data to a much greater extent, but in the end I wouldn't trust either completely. My routes will always be planned on a paper chart, and the gps is simply to make sure I say on course.

dp

[IO540]

PDA problems are

a) screens

The not-cheap polarised screen, variously called "all-view" etc etc and available on tablets, doesn't appear to be out on PDAs yet

b) accidental touching

It is so easy to b*gger up a PDA GPS by touching the screen. I thought about getting a pocket/pc expert friend of mine to write a little driver which (when executed) would capture and dump all keystrokes but in the end I never bothered. Obviously one has to disable all the preprogrammed buttons, but not all buttons can be disabled, IME.

Whereas a tablet PC comes with an inductive screen which can be touched without problems.

[bencoulthard]

What are the options for PDA owners?

PocketFMS is one, anyone know any others?

[Superpilot]

CoPilot with FlightMaster for the Palm Pilot devices. CoPilot is the planning application (does W&B and all sorts) and integrates with the Moving Map GPS part which is FlightMaster.

Download from http://www.flight-master.com/download.html
Additional databases available from: http://www.flight-master.com/database.html

Been using it for years and it does the job IMO.

[IO540]

Memory Map runs on a pocket/pc PDA but is a pretty naff job. It displays the CAA charts OK if used on a 640x480 PDA like the HP4700, useless on anything less.

CoPilot is available for the Palm; I used it on that myself but it is a very US-centred product with many UK airfields missing. It does W&B very nicely.

Oziexplorer runs very nicely on a HP4700 too, but you have to obtain the scanned maps somehow.

There isn't much else. PocketFMS is worth a look although the database is something I would personally not trust that much (user compiled).

[Superpilot]

IO540,

There is a database specifically designed for the UK, it has every single airfield (inc private, disused, microlight and glider strips) in the UK.

[IO540]

I would always support a "open source" project like pocketfms (not least because the whole business of map and aeronautical data copyright is so obscenely tight in Europe that anybody having a go needs support) so I am probably unfair to pocketfms in my comments.

However, I personally need a uniform database for Europe, not just the UK. The UK is a piece of cake - just buy the CAA chart for £14 or so, or for £50 for Memory Map, and fly around. It is when venturing into Europe that one needs uniform and reliable coverage. I don't think pocketfms will ever achieve this properly simply because GA activity in much of Europe is almost nonexistent.

I also need IFR (airways) flight planning and that is something else. Flitestar IFR is perhaps the only suitable product on the market, although one can get by with Navbox (to generate a plausible plog) if one does all the dirty work on bits of paper outside of it. It's a shame that Navbox has not gone just that bit further - the Jepp software is packed with perhaps too many features for most private pilots.

[S-Works]

I have both Navbox and Flightstar. Navbox is perfect for your VFR bimbler who just wants to run a basic what if and PLOG around the UK.

Going further afield Flightstar is the biz. I use the IFR version and its airways planning is superb, never had a flight plan from it rejected. The 3d profile and the airspace markings are excellant and allow for very accurate long distance planning. Also being able to pump out the PLOG, W&B and FLightplan are great. I can produce the flight plan and fax direct from the PC all from Flightstar.

[nigelisom]

Do any of these run on a Mac, preferably MacOsX?

Nigel

[S-Works]

i got flight star to run under the emulator on a mac. not very impressive performance compared to my dual core dual processor 2gb Pentium but usuable.

[soay]

I have both Navbox and Flightstar. Navbox is perfect for your VFR bimbler who just wants to run a basic what if and PLOG around the UK.
Going further afield Flightstar is the biz.
Are there any disadvantages if your VFR bimbler who just wants to run a basic what if and PLOG around the UK uses Flightstar instead? In particular, is it any more complicated to set up a route and upload it to your GPS?

Thanks

[S-Works]

there are no diasadvantages to using flightstar, it is a better product all round but costs more!

I dont upload flight plans into the GPS allthough flightstar will allow me to. I prefer to print the plog and add them manually. I also tend to fly either GPS direct or via Nav aids so I do not enter coordinates.

[IO540]

bose-x

Serious questions:

1) Would you mind describing how Flitestar VFR is better than Navbox Pro?

2) Would you mind describing how Flitestar IFR is better than Navbox Pro?

The first one I find hard to see. Obviously FS has far more features but I am talking in the VFR flight planning context.

The 2nd one is clear enough for airways use; you can enter the airway route spec into Flitestar IFR (using the "plain text" entry option) and it draws the whole track, and then prints out the plog containing all the individual waypoints. (One then has the job of manually entering all 40 of them into the IFR GPS, but that's another story). But for UK-style Class G/D IFR, I fail to see the advantage over Navbox.

I have played around with Flitestar IFR a fair bit (the Flitemap version actually) and really tried to get the benefit of the extra features but except for generating a plog for European airways routes I still go back to Navbox every time. It's just so much easier to use and the plog is simple and concise.

The other thing is copy protection. Jepp stuff is tight. Navbox you can put on as many machines as you have kicking around; I have it at my office, at home, on two or three other devices I use.

[S-Works]

Horses for courses I guess. I have Jeppview and Flightstar and the Rasta maps of Europe, Notams and weather all in one so I have a one stop shop for a flight plan.

I did not say there were any disadvantages to pro plan, it is just a bit basic for my needs. I like the fact VFR or IFR I have one common interface.

I plug in the route and out pops a full set of docs in colour that I clip to the kneeboard and off i go!

I also have flightstar running on several machines. The licence key allows 3 live at the same time. I can move the key around in seconds so it has never been a problem. I would suggest that someone who is using more than 1 copy at any time requires further licences as the licence is issued on a per user basis so the fact that Jepp allow 3 in use at once is pretty good.

[Aussie Andy]

I also have flightstar running on several machines.ProPlan has a similiar license -- can use on additional machines.

Andy :ok:

[IO540]

bose-x

Do you buy the Euro Raster Charts CD every so often, and print out en route VFR chart sections? That would make sense.

Re copy protection, this is obviously a contentious area since any relaxation tends to be associated with bootlegging, but I think one should be allowed to install a piece of software on as many machines as one wishes. I can see why Jepp limit this - the price!

Did you go on a training course?

[Ptkay]

I would like to highly recommend to all of you the PocketFMS software.

I am using it since 1,5 year with great pleasure and good effects.
The flight planning part is extreemly easy to use,
moving map just excelent.
Also the UMN (user maintained nav data) is better than Jeppersen,
but of course not certified.

And it's freeware, only the hi-res maps cost you a "donation".
Check yourself, the download of full functioning version is free.
www.pocketfms.com

(Nevertheless I have to admit I fly with PocketFMS in Poland, where
the airspace is not that congested like in UK) ;)

[JeroenC]

Hi all,

you are al talking about charting software, but what about a digital AD? Something like an electronic Bottlang? Is this on the market, with a subscription service?

[IO540]

There is no properly regularly updated VFR touring guide available in electronic format, for Europe, that I know of.

Jepp have been talking about theirs coming out for a few years. I suspect they worry about bootlegging.

[LowNSlow]

As a self confessed VFR bimbler I find NavBox Pro perfect. How could it be easier than this:

1. Draw proposed route on the PC
2. Print out plog
3. Draw route on chart for sanity check and use in aeroplane
4. Amend route to incorporate any changes
5. Print out final plog
6. Upload to GPS III
7. Go flying

This cuts out finger trouble in entering waypoints, ensures that the courses and distances work on the official CAA chart and give you a plog.