Ditching, what may happen?

[funfly]

I have a glass aircraft looks a bit like a Cirrus. MAUW 2240;bs. Lycoming IO360 on the front, fuel in the wings, fixed undercarriage, gullwing doors. (It's a KIS Cruiser if you know what that is).
In order that I can formulate the best emergency procedures in the event of a ditching as there any research available on the most likely scenario if I emergency land in the sea - assuming I make a reasonable slow landing and don't stall it in.
Stay upright and float flat?
Instantly flip over forwards due to drag of undercarriage?
Go nose down due to the weight of engine?
Flip right over on it's back so that doors are underneath?
Generally float?
Go straight down?

[IO540]

There is very little data on ditchings from the UK but from elsewhere it would appear that the aircraft is likely to immediately assume something like a 45 degree nose-down angle (due to engine weight) and sink within minutes at most. That's assuming a good landing and an intact front window.

I always carry a raft. Around the UK, life jackets are good for locating the corpses :O

Fixed gear is likely to be a big disadvantage but much is going to depend on your stall speed.

But as I say, not a lot of data around, and a fair % of ditchings appear to have been botched.

[crap pilot]

With a fixed under carriage i would be looking to stall the aircraft a few feet above the water. I think that you would be very lucky not to flip the aircraft on its back if you fly it in and if that happens your chances of getting out are reduced. If possible i would try to get the tail end into the water first as this will slow the aircraft down very quickly.

[Islander2]

Quite a lot of useful data and informed opinion available from the USA (although naturally, not much of this for composite airframes). Try these for starters:

www.equipped.com/ditching.htm (http://www.equipped.com/ditching.htm)
www.equipped.com/aopa-ditch-rebut.htm (http://www.equipped.com/aopa-ditch-rebut.htm)
www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm (http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm)
www.equipped.com/bschiff-ditching.htm (http://www.equipped.com/bschiff-ditching.htm)
www.equipped.com/ditch.htm (http://www.equipped.com/ditch.htm)
www.avweb.com/news/safety/182976-1.html (http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/182976-1.html)

[markflyer6580]

Ditching, what may happen?

You may get wet (or drown possibly):}

[Droopystop]

I think that you have to assume that you are going to want to get out ASAP in the event of a ditching, regardless of how the aircraft might float (if at all). What the aircraft might do in calm water will almost certainly be very different to what it will do if there is any wave action. In other words, your escape plan has to assume all of the scenarios you have put across. But most importantly, you have to make sure that you are in a fit state to put that plan into action, ie not injured in the impact.

['India-Mike]

Hmmm...who knows what'll happen, unless the manufacturer has conducted ditching trials.

Having almost had to ditch 6 weeks ago (made the beach), I've had my mind re-focussed. The flight ref. cards for the aeroplanes I fly/flew (Chipmunk & Bulldog) state:

'Ditching: abandon rather than ditch'

For the 'dog, no height given; for the Chippy, if above 1500' then abandon. Rather says it all, if the military would rather have you jump than ditch. I normally wear a parachute for over-water Chippy flights - but didn't on the day the cranshaft broke!

CAA safety sense leaflet 21 is pretty good, although it does say don't stall in - the Chippy FRC's say stall it in!

So I'd assume the worst - the bl**dy thing will head for the bottom as fast as it can. Yet leaflet 21 states that 88% of controlled ditchings are carried out with few injuries! But then I'm a 'glass half empty' sort....

[jabberwok]

Saw a Cessna ditch some while back. After the splash subsided (maybe a second or two) the aircraft was already vertical with just the fin sticking out of the water. It was gone in less than 10 seconds.

The crew survived the impact but it was the next few seconds that determined their survival. The windscreen had caved in on impact (most do) and both described the sudden shock to their system as they were plunged into very cold water in an unusual attitude. Both had trouble releasing their harnesses because on impact the belts had twisted round with the buckle lying against their stomachs. Both believed the aircraft was going down far faster than it actually did - possibly because of the vertical attitude - and that almost triggered panic.

Luckily both kept calm, released the harnesses and one got his door open and kicked out. The other door was jammed so No2 used this to kick against and followed his mate out of the open door.

Despite talking about ditching in the past and working out what to do should it happen, both said that it was the things they hadn't anticipated that nearly did them in. The rapid immersion into very cold water immediately on landing, the unusual aircraft attitude and the twisted belts all resulted in confusion and disorientation. Both kept their heads but both still thought they were lucky to survive.

[OCTA]

Hello,
A subject clost to my heart at the moment as I do alot of overwater flights (at night to make it better) A few weeks ago my partner was in this very situation although it was in a float plane that flipped on landing. The windscreen broke and the cabin filled with water extremly fast. All where unhurt luckly apart from minor cuts. They ended up getting out through the passenger side window as they couldn't get the pilots side door open. The aircraft floated for a little while but that was mainly due to the floats (they still work even if they are upside down)
So my theory is have a plan and expect to be underwater before you even know it and make sure your seat belt is really tight because water may look soft but it still hurts!
octa

[Tarq57]

Spoken to two people who've had to do this. One in a Cherokee140, smooth sea, ran a tank dry, flared so the stall warning went as the gear touched the water. No probs. Got out, aircraft sank in about two minutes.
The other had, (I think) a crankshaft failure in a 206 just after takeoff from an island. Very rough sea. Landed into wind (about 40kt) across the swell. Impact didn't break the windscreen, but it did dislodge a can of paint from the cargo bay which hit him hard on the head. He couldn't get the door open because of water pressure - the aircraft was quite nose-down - so dived into the back, opened the clamshell doors, swam like hell for a few seconds, turned around just in time to see it sink. Possibly if he'd had enough time to lower the flaps, he wouldn't have been able to open the rear doors.
From memory the recommendation is to not stall just above the surface, but to fly it on just above stall speed with the nose not too high. If the tail hits hard first, the abrupt pitch down will make the impact worse. Land along the swells, trying to put it down on the back of one of them (yeah, right! good luck!) unless the wind is strong...30kt or thereabouts I think, then land into wind.

[Jetscream 32]

mmmm surprised!! no one has mentioned getting rid of the doors first or at least getting them open if not detached - UK Navy Dunker crew taught us to stall/incipient spin as close as we dare to the water - ie wing tip scrap the water surface at very high aob - if small swell - as if you hit tail first it would slam the engine in and sink in half the time - only a nearly ditch for me in a chipmunk with a glider on the back @ 300 on climb out over the sea - turned back!! - yes i know - but as said earlier in thread - bale out @ 300 not really an option.

[Lister Noble]

I know I'm only a mere student, but we are taught to release the top door lock on the PA28 if we are force landing, as the airframe can twist and jam the door.
I assume this would apply to most aircraft?
Lister:)

[AfricanEagle]

Opening doors before ditching is high on my over water check list.

With the C172 the plan is to open the doors and put on the lock back on so they can't close again.

Just hope I never have to try it.

AE

[SkyHawk-N]

With the C172 the plan is to open the doors and put on the lock back on so they can't close again.


I was taught the following...

1 - Take shoe off
2 - Open door and wedge open using shoe
3 - Ditch
4 - Exit and swim off into the sunset.

I'm sure if it ever happens to me I'll only remember to do no.3 :}

[mcgoo]

why all this talk of jamming doors open, the original poster has a glass aircraft which surely would shatter on impact leaving him nicely bobbing along on the surface!

[IO540]

After I had a failure of one of the two PA28 door locks, I would never fly a single door aircraft over water.

This will get some people going :O

[funfly]

why all this talk of jamming doors open, the original poster has a glass aircraft which surely would shatter on impact leaving him nicely bobbing along on the surface!
Fibreglass with carbon interlay - will take a lot to destroy that.
From the replies on this forum I have produced the following checklist:

DITCHING

At 6,000’ you have up to 10 minutes flying time, 15 nm downwind 10 nm upwind

CHECK LIST

Mayday call – position reference on GPS
Look for ships, nearest land
Best glide 80 kts.
Engine restart procedures
Remove sharp objects
Check for unsecured objects behind you
Put life-raft in ready position
Tighten seat belt
Secure immersion suit – feet, head, gloves
Start emergency locator beacon
Passenger open door as you get lower - hold closed, don’t let go!
Do not use flaps
Land along the swell
Keep nose high
Touch down as slow as possible without stalling

BE PREPARED

Aircraft may go nose in. windscreen may shatter, cold water will come in - it will bob back to the surface - at least for a while
The cold water will cause SHOCK

Prepare to do three things only and keep these in your mind:
1. Undo seat belt
2. get yourself out
3. Inflate your life jacket – pull chord hard

If aircraft remains upright after ditching:
1. Throw out life-raft, hold on to the inflation cord - it will sink if not inflated, it will float away if not held!
2. Get yourself out
3. Inflate your life jacket – pull chord hard

[Fuji Abound]

Whilst life rafts have been mentioned, and in addition to all the other good points, I think the importance of the life raft needs to be emphasised.

People often believe if you get out the aircraft with life jackets on - job done. In fact the vast majority of people will die from hypothermia. If you are in any doubt you should look at the trials on our ability to survive in water at the typical temperatures around our coast. In reality your only real chance without a life raft is if you happen to be lucky for rescue to come very very quickly

Life raft drill is therefore very important. It is surprising how often the life raft is simply placed on the back seat. Consider whether in the "panic" of a forced landing you will be able to get to the life raft in the few minutes available. Consider also whether the life raft will float away as soon as it is inflated, leaving you stranded. Also consider how the rescue services will find you. An EPIRB is cheap and gives them a significantly better chance.

Finally I cant remember whether anyone has mentioned landing near a ship if possible - again it goes back to minimising the time before rescue.

If you can a dry suite is also a very good idea.

[Droopystop]

Here we go again.

Liferaft would be great providing the following points are addressed:

The liferaft is adequately secured so it would become an unguided missile on impact.
The liferaft can be quickly and easily removed from outside (as well as from inside) the aircraft.
Everyone on board is familiar with its use and at least one has done a dinghy drill.
It has been well maintained and regularly serviced.
It can be inflated and boarded before it sinks/blows away.

I underestimated the ease of use of a life raft until I did a dinghy drill. They are not easy to use in a swimming pool, let alone in a seaway. Sudden immersion cold water is very debilitating and can seriously inhibit ones ability to scramble into a liferaft. IMHO, I would put a survival suit and life jacket as must haves. The lifejacket must be fitted with a spray hood, EPRIB and day night flare. Some form of "Spare Air" would come higher up my list than a life raft.

Of course, the cost of all this kit has to be offset against the risk and that point is for the individual to decide.

Fuji, keeping your "suite" (sic) dry is one thing, getting it into an aircraft is quite another:E

[dublinpilot]

Some form of "Spare Air" would come higher up my list than a life raft.

What portable options are available for this?

dp

[Droopystop]

DP,

The military have a system that I believe is now being used on some N Sea helo flights (not the rebreather system the pax get). It seems very similar to a system available to Sports divers and is based on a cylinder about the size of a beer can with a regulator and mouth peice on top. Small enough to fit in the pocket on a lifejacket (all be it a big life jacket). Does require formal training before use.

[IO540]

Just a few thoughts here:

Once the aircraft is fully submerged, it will sink at a substantial vertical speed. Ships have been known to go down at something like 50mph, breaking up into several pieces upon impact. So if you aren't out before this point, you've had it (unless the water is pretty shallow) so no need to worry about underwater breathing options. I've done the BSAC course so I know one could get out from 50-100m deep if one was quick but I doubt most people, suddenly submerged in pitch black freezing water and with their eardrums punctured etc would manage it.

A drysuit is nice but the fact is that most people won't wear them. What everybody could do is carry a raft, yet it's common knowledge that most over-Channel flights don't carry one. So there is a lot of hypocrisy in this area.

Also I don't think they will find you bobbing up and down in a big swell in a drysuit unless you also have an EPIRB deployed, or they get lucky.

To add to the checklist: chuck all headsets in the boot. This prevents getting tangled up in the cables when trying to get out. The engine has failed so it should be quiet enough :O

I carry a raft (an American Survival Products one; the better quality RFD ones sold by Transair etc are too heavy for most women/children to move about) with a canopy, get it overhauled by SEMS every 2 years. It cost about £1200. The Kannad 406 EPIRB cost about £500. The probability of the raft not opening is of the order of 1%. Multiply that by the tiny chance of an engine failure and the odds make this a pretty good escape route.

The really obvious thing, if in a PA28, is not to position an elderly or otherwise not very fast moving person near the only door!

[Piltdown Man]

Some time ago, a friend of mine ditched in the Channel (midway between Scilly Isles and Lands End) in a Grob 109 (appropriately registered G-WAVE to be specific). Malcolm, being a gentlemany sort of chap, leapt into the water as soon as it stopped with the intention of hanging onto the tail so that the aircarft could float in a "flat" attitude. This would have the benefit of allowing his wife to remain dry inside the plane whilst they waited for the Lifeboat. He kept falling of the tail as the swell went through and all the while his wife (charming lady, Margaret was her name if I recall correctly) remained dry inside. When the lifeboat did come, all she did was walk into the boat with only her shoes getting wet. Malcolm wished he'd stayed inside with her!

Only when the lifeboat attempted to tow the plane for salvage (with a rope around the prop) did the thing sink. But as soon as the rope was cut, it bobbed back up to the surface. Salvage was effected by towing it backwards. It buggered the ailerons, but so what. Marvellous stuff this Tupperware.

What will happpen to yours? Who knows. But at least ditching is survivable in style! The really important thing he did was to make a proper "Mayday" call thus ensuring rescue in minimum time.

PM.

[tmmorris]

A friend of mine who sails pointed out to me the other day that landing next to a ship might not be all it's cracked up to be - most of them are on autopilot and no-one's monitoring 121.5...

Tim

[B2N2]

Might be some interesting material here:
http://www.equipped.com/ditchbib.htm

And here:

http://www.equipped.com/ditchtoc.htm


Quite a read by the looks of it...:ok:

[Ni Thomas]

Ships don't monitor 121.50 because they do not generally carry any radio equipment covering the aeronautical frequencies - nor are they obliged to.
Ships do operate under auto-pilot most of the time when at sea, but they are obliged to keep a good look out. However, this doesnt necessarily release another pair of eyes to look out for falling bits of aluminium as, during daylight hours, ships may only have a single multi-tasking person on the bridge, he/she/it's (hereafter referred to as 'he') the navigator, the lookout, the collision avoidance bloke and the communications officer etc etc.
He may be plotting a position in the chart room just as your precious aeronautical steed plops into the oggin and will very probably miss the splash. He may not hear you as, presumably your engine has given up the ghost and you are in glide mode. This isnt helped as ships can be noisy beasts with a whacking great diesel popping away just behind the bridge. There's also the rattling bulkheads and the wind whistling through the rigging. The bridge doors may be closed too.
This officer may not react as you would have hoped. It depends on their training (a subject close to my heart).
The ship may be a ponderous beast. Just imagine a large vessel trying to undertake a turn and to stop in time to get alongside a sinking aircraft. It takes time, searoom and no small measure of skill.

My advice is to transmit a Mayday to whichever frequency you are monitoring, if no response and if you're not already on it, go to 121.50 .
My first landing option would be to land just ahead of a yacht or motor cruiser thingy.
Second option - a fishing vessel.
Third - a small coastal vessel/barge/warship (They are more manoeuvreable than the larger vessels)
Fourth - A Ferry
Fifth - another vessel.
Last choice - a large Flag of Convenience bulker/oil tanker/container vessel:E

Just my thoughts after 35 years at sea.

[funfly]

Although I currentl carry a life raft I am dubious about the practicality of getting it out (can't keep it on the front seat as our aircraft is stick controlled). If left in the back it may impact us on arrival.

I have opted for immersion suits and have bought for myself and my wife the sort used in North Sea helicopter operations (from The Shark Group - if anyone interested contact me for more details but be warned they are £500 each!). These are worn fully done up while over water.

It is not uncomfortable to wear them and they do give a tremendous feeling of security while you are wearing them, which is the important bit.
Before every trip over the sea we confirm the actions of each person in case of emergency as part of our pre flight briefing.

Following all the comments above, I have ammended my check list to contain 4 vital actions on arrival instead of three;
1. Throw headsets in back
2. undo seat belt
3. get yourself out
4. pull hard to inflate life jacket.

This discussion has helped me a great deal on this subject and I hope will have helped others,

[stocker]

Ditching anywhere around uk waters, especially North Sea you are unlikely to survive very long in the water(if you survive impact) due to water taking heat from your body more than 25 times faster than air. Increase your chances by wearing an imersion suit. Many ditching/drownings occur due to cold shock as you involuntery take a huge breath as you contact the cold water, this can be dealt with by having a small air bottle in use at time of ditching. Lifejackets with a sprayhood will also extend your survival time dramaticaly.
I am speaking from personal experience after receiving ditching training(including into cold water) on a regular basis over the last 18 years. Exercises were carried out in various conditions in an enviromental tank using a helicopter fuselage sim where you are strapped in and lowered into the water,sometimes quite quickly and also going inverted.
Even after dozens of simulated ditchings I find that orientation is always the key as you would not believe how easy it is to forget which is up/down or left/right. Keep one hand on your exit(if possible) and that will help.
You can obtain training yourself on this simulator at training centres throughout th uk.

www.nutecuk.com
www.blackpool.ac.uk/fosc

At nutec they can slect a surprising number of door/window configurations for you to try.
Usually the courses are set for offshore workers but I believe they do ditching only courses for pilots.
I am not trying to sell their product as I have nothing to do with them but I reckon my chances in a ditching to be gratly enhanced.