NATS ATCO Pay Deal Accepted [Archive]

AeroBatfink

8th Feb 2006, 15:38

hi
forgive my ignorance, but is this the same pay deal that could change the starting pay of Trainee's at the college from £15,000 to £10,000?
Thanks
I would guess so, because we were all told about the pay reduction by an ATCO at the NATS initial assessment I attended yesterday. It's not just the reduction, they've also done away with the accomodation allowance. So it's effectively gone from around £20000 to £10000 at one fell swoop! :eek:

I don't know about anyone else, but if I do get in, that would pretty well shaft me - I'm not quite sure how I'm supposed to afford to relocate my family to the south of england and survive on £10000 pa. I can't see any other option than to get a part-time job in the little spare time I would have at the college - needless to say, I can imagine that adversely affecting my studies and meaning I see even less of my child's early development. I can appreciate that NATS would feel that they're 'wasting' a lot of money by paying a higher salary to 80 of the 120 students (disclaimer: anecdotal figure) who never get through the training, but considering that someone with a family to support is likely to work hard and not piss around at the college, an allowance for families would seem a good idea (well, it seems like a good idea to me, anyway!).

I can understand what I suspect to be the reasoning behind it, but it seems a shame that NATS might be cutting a whole section of their applicant base out of the equation, some of whom, under different circumstances, might go on to make extremely reliable and competent ATCOs.

driver 8

8th Feb 2006, 15:40

future atco

8th Feb 2006, 15:56

my god.................£10,000 is crap!!!

The ATCO we had at my selection day said that it probably wouldn't get voted in..............but it has!!!

This is not good!

Is that tax free-we were told it would be?

Aiguilleur du ciel

8th Feb 2006, 16:21

that deal is shocking, this effective means 'mature' applicants will deter from this career as the salary would not cover all the necessary expenses

i being one of them know that i would have to take a drastic pay cut, but as i want the position so badly, the light at the end of the tunnel is the factor that motivates me

i rather get paid crap wages for a job i love initially than being paid mega bucks for a job i have no motivation for......

Stupendous Man

8th Feb 2006, 16:37

I would guess so, because we were all told about the pay reduction by an ATCO at the NATS initial assessment I attended yesterday. It's not just the reduction, they've also done away with the accomodation allowance. So it's effectively gone from around £20000 to £10000 at one fell swoop! :eek:

I thought that the WAP was still going to be paid to trainees.

Stupendous Man

8th Feb 2006, 16:40

Well if it's been accepted then what's the deal? I've been on leave a couple of weeks and am off another couple still, never received a ballot paper or any info even though Prospect do have my correct mailing address (apart from a single grainy photcopied a4 sheet a few months ago from Prospect without much detail).
Once agin the union had failed me :*
- Sorry, rant over -
D8

If you didn't receive your ballot paper did you get in touch with Prospect over the last couple of weeks and ask where it was/check your details/ask for a new ballot be sent to you?

Angrel

8th Feb 2006, 16:42

so no living allowances? tax and ni on 10000? so after that about 700 monthly. that doesnt even cover cost of living down here in cornwall! and thats with a RAF house!! i now have to seriously rethink even though my reports are pushing to get controller (just dun wanna do it in the raf!). i realise that in other countries, a lot of the course is paid for by the students themselves. Canada for example is approx CD$3500 for the IFR course. Why not get the students who fail to pay back the money? or a proportion at least?

the wifes gonna go crazy! oh shi............................................!

oh, and i really really really wanted to be an ATCO too!

and is there any links to show what this whole deal is? ta!

AREA52

8th Feb 2006, 17:07

Hi folks,

As an Atco at a large unit on the South coast, all I can say is that I can understand your concerns over Student pay which would appear to now be less than what we were being paid in the early nineties as cadets. However, the salary is supposedly going to be paid in "a tax efficient way" whatever that means. Therefore, the cash in hand amount at the end of the month remains to be seen.

I do think Aerobatfinks idea of a family allowance would definitely be worth looking at, as this would make the training period somewhat easier on those with family responsibilities who may feel the pinch that little bit more.

On the positive side, over the last couple of pay rounds, the ATCO scales have increased considerably and that is where you will spend most of your career.

Admittedly, that doesn't come with a guarantee of validation!

Angrel

8th Feb 2006, 17:33

Area52, fair enough the pay scales for atco's have gone up. is there any way i can find out these pay scales? or anything about the new pay deal? might help me put the trg wage into perspective!

atcomarkingtime

8th Feb 2006, 17:34

:mad: Well at least now it may start attracting those people who actually want to be an ATCO and not just those doing it because the money looks good! Lets hope this recruits guys and gals who know about aircraft types etc!
You're not on the low salary all your life...show NATS what you can do and see the money go up!!

atcomarkingtime

8th Feb 2006, 17:50

Angrel....if you really really want to do one of the most rewarding jobs going, then don't worry about the trg pay....look to the future!!! Never a dull day and they pay you to enjoy it......

Angrel

8th Feb 2006, 18:01

atcomarkingtime
i agree totally. but to be able to look at the future, ya gotta look at the big picture! hence why i would like to know the full deal. just so all is straight in my own mind.

ayrprox

8th Feb 2006, 18:04

ah roll on the canteen moans and groans in a couple of years or so when the company is making profits which we will now not be able to take a slice of. :mad: :mad:
but hey thats democracy for you:{

trainee101

8th Feb 2006, 18:06

Just to let you know, all the information about your pay is on the recruitment page under Career FAQ's on the NATS website. Rumour at the college is that over the next few years they are gonna completely phase out trainee pay and maybe even make the trainee pay themselves. Also the £10,000 (taxed) and no WAP pay has been on the website for at least the last month and supposedly NATS have had the highest amount of applicants (someone mentioned 1700 since the beginning of the year). This is due to the huge recruitment advertising campaign. How many of those applicants will be viable is anyones guess as they have targeted a completely different crowd.

Nats is a business now and very few countries around the world pay their trainees as much as Nats used to, therefore making it easy for Nats to redistribute the 20,000 from trainees pockets to experienced ATCO's, just think that if you make the grade you get paid even more.

Overall I'd count yourself lucky you are going to get anything as eventually training to be an ATCO will be like going to Uni... Debt!

Also there is no hope in hell that you'll be able to have a part-time job and be successful at the college. It is so intense that you have to totally give yourself weekends, although they even get infringed upon as the course goes on, but it is only for 10 months then your pay goes up!

G-UNIT

8th Feb 2006, 18:14

At the end of the day it comes down to market forces. There are a number of people of this forum bemoaning the new pay deal and saying how hard it will be(myself included), the key point is we're still intending to accept a place at the college if one is offered. Playing devils advocate to a certain extent, but why should NATS pay more than necessary( as long as the quality of candidate doesn't slip). Who would be surprised in a couple of years time (if the standard of candidate has been maintained) the £10,000 became £7,500 and so on.

Radarspod

8th Feb 2006, 20:58

Try looking at this from an engineer's point of view

4 years spent at uni, Bu**er all money to live off even with a full grant.....I would have loved to have had 10 grand a year to play with. Of course there are those who have families and relocation to deal with, but that's just the way of the world - the big bucks don't roll in until you qualify.

By the way, we only got 8ish percent over 3 years - count yourselves lucky! BUPA cover? closest we would get is a free elastoplast.

5milesbaby

8th Feb 2006, 22:44

Unfortunately the pay deal is accepted so for those of you who haven't started yet, I feel sorry for you, but £10k it is - there is nothing you can do about that now. I believe the "tax efficient" method is to pay £6k as basic pay and the extra £4k as "accomodation allowances" which will be given tax-free, but don't quote me on that.

To give an alternate perspective on this though, as we tend to compare pay with that of pilots, how many pilots receive pay during their training thats a tempting offer just to start? And of those that do offer some subsidies, how many DON'T reclaim some of the training fee after qualification for the next 5 years?

My personal thoughts are that we have just shafted ourselves voting this in, but I now have to live and work with it, I'm sure for any new cadets - if there's a will there's always a way.

bagpuss lives

8th Feb 2006, 23:37

Any news on the PCS deal - accepted or not I wonder?

Radarspod

9th Feb 2006, 00:04

niteflite01,

from CE's email:

PCS, Prospect ATCO Branch and Prospect ATSS Branch have all accepted the proposals that were reached through extensive negotiations held between NATS and the Trade Unions representatives.

coolbeans

9th Feb 2006, 09:41

To take the Uni comparison further, you suffer your 4 years of debt, destitution and cold baked bean and beer sandwichs. But chances are you are a single student living in a crappy little flat just out of school.

This means that £10000 a year to go to "ATC Uni" is pretty good, if you are a single school leaver.

If you have any kind of financial commitment = mortgage, wife, kids, dog, previous debt. I really dont see how it could be done.

You chaps have my sympathy

And for all you school leavers you folks have my envy. Think how much beer £10000 would buy you.

Nimmer

9th Feb 2006, 15:13

Good point from coolbeans. So if ATC wants to attract school leavers, congratulations. However to succeed as an ATCO you can't beat a bit of maturity, not going to get the people in their mid twenties now, myself or my wife wouldn't have been able to accept that low pay, and that was 5 years ago for her 15 for me!!!!

Boy am I getting old!!!

nodelay

9th Feb 2006, 16:06

future atco

9th Feb 2006, 16:17

i'm not even sure if i've passed the aptittude tests yet but i know that i really really want to do this so i will take the job, should i get offered one, because its the only thing i want to do.

However, there are people who have mortgages and families and if you are the main earner, £10,000 just wont get you far but as its already been said, its only 10mths at the most, after which your pay will start increasing.......and then we wont be moaning!!

if you're more worried about the pay than the future prospects of this job (which we all know could be pretty good) then maybe its time to get out now...........before you take the place of someone who really wants it?!

thats not meant to get anyone's back up of course,i'm just simply airing my views :ok:

chevvron

9th Feb 2006, 16:28

The success rate of candidates has been poor for a long time due to the fact the selection procedures tend to favour ex-university types with no interest in aviation who are looking for a well paid job.

nodelay

9th Feb 2006, 16:37

Chevron,
The only requirement for a training slot at the college is two A Levels and success at apptitude/interview level, being a graduate has no bearing whatsoever. You can just as easliy be somebody with only 2 A levels, no interest in aviation and an eye on a good salary!!!

Dan Dare

9th Feb 2006, 17:39

Actually, you do not need ANY A levels, merely to have studied at that sort of level. One of the best cadets on my course only had GCSEs whereas the PhD did not validate in NATS. The course and training is not academic, although there is a lot to learn, but aptitude is the thing that no-one really seems to be able to select or predict acurately.

Keepitsimplestupid

9th Feb 2006, 17:47

Maybe I am missing the point but is it just possible NATS has a multitude of experienced and keen potential ATCO's within its ranks in the form of Air Traffic Assistants and other support staff? Does NATS not have some sort of internal trawl system in place for the benefit of these potential candidates?

chevvron

9th Feb 2006, 18:00

I know a s**t hot FISO who would make an excellent ATCO, but he has no GCSE's therefore can't even be an ATSA!

Anyway, Band 1 and 2 units shafted in favour of 4 & 5 units as usual; there should have been some measure to reduce the differentials between the bands. Don't get me wrong, of course operational 5's should get more than operational 1/2/3, but why are the college in band 5? And why are ATSOCA's ignored as 'unquantifiable' when LARS units are required to keep comprehensive records of their movements?

flower

9th Feb 2006, 18:40

Unfortunately only those units who provide ATSOCAs or LARS understand the amount of work that goes into them, they are also in the brand New NATS not revenue earning so don't even show as a Blip on the board members radar screens.

We are not going to get the banding scheme changed we have to unfortunately live with it.

I really feel we have sold ourselves down the river with accepting this pay deal, next year who knows what the RPI will be but if it less than the 2.3% forecast I wonder how those who voted yes will feel. Will we next time around get told it will be a 4 year deal 5 year deal etc ?

My biggest disappointment though has been the way we have potentially shafted ourselves for the future with trainees, second jobbers will probably not even consider applying now as they, however much will want to do the job will find themselves unable to afford to do it. Second jobbers often came in with the most enormous commitment and put in so much effort to succeed.

The current training scheme seems to have been a failure, I don't hold out much hope for the future.

halo

9th Feb 2006, 19:23

That's not strictly true.... There are many of us at non-radar units that fully appreciate the huge amount of effort and care that goes into ATSOCA/LARS.

The company are the ones that choose not to take into account all the "non-revenue earning" services that are provided by you good folk out at the Cardiffs/Farnboroughs/Edinburghs, etc. Unfortunately the people further up the management chain forget that we provide a "safety based service" and not a "let's make loads of cash" service.

The way things are going with this company at the moment, we should all be pretty glad that we aren't PCG grades.... Because they are going to be dropping like flies if the top team have their way, and they aren't anywhere near as well protected as us ATCOs are.

SilentHandover

9th Feb 2006, 20:08

KISS

There is no internal trawl of assistants in NATS, as a current NATS assistant I have to apply for position as a trainee ATCO in exactly the same manner as anyone from outside NATS.

TATC

9th Feb 2006, 20:20

KISS
There is no internal trawl of assistants in NATS, as a current NATS assistant I have to apply for position as a trainee ATCO in exactly the same manner as anyone from outside NATS.

there was a trawl last May for ex trainee atcos to apply and try to get back into Atco training - this was responded to by quite a few current ATSA's.

When I was at the college there was one ATSA on the course with me - he was on mark time ATSA pay until his ATCO salary caught up.

Nowadays they have to apply like the rest - resign there jobs as ATSA's and start on the same basic salary as new employees - even for people at the start of the ATSA 1 scale this more than halfs there pay (when you take into account UHP which they currently get paid, with no guarantee of an ATSA position should they fail the course. This means that one source of aviation experienced potential trainee atco's is removed.

bagpuss lives

9th Feb 2006, 21:08

I wasn't aware that ATSAs had to resign before taking up a post as a student ATCO?

DC10RealMan

9th Feb 2006, 21:22

I would not consider it an attractive proposition, Resign from a "secure" post, take a 50% pay cut, and at the end of it as a "reward" the prospect of working for thirty years on the radar at Swanwick!. NATS does not deserve the calibre of staff that it has, but for how much longer I wonder?

Gonzo

9th Feb 2006, 21:54

Interesting you use the word 'secure' regarding ATSAs, DC10, that's not the case everywhere, unfortunately.

And chevvron, the college is band 5 because nobody would want to work there otherwise.

TATC

9th Feb 2006, 22:01

there was a trawl last May for ex trainee atcos to apply and try to get back into Atco training - this was responded to by quite a few current ATSA's.
When I was at the college there was one ATSA on the course with me - he was on mark time ATSA pay until his ATCO salary caught up.
Nowadays they have to apply like the rest - resign there jobs as ATSA's and start on the same basic salary as new employees - even for people at the start of the ATSA 1 scale this more than halfs there pay (when you take into account UHP which they currently get paid, with no guarantee of an ATSA position should they fail the course. This means that one source of aviation experienced potential trainee atco's is removed.

The resignation is dependant on if they are applying to an internal VN or not. I Know of people who have asked the question what would happen if they applied outside of the internal system and they were told that is what would happen ( admittedly this was about 3 years ago and might have changed since then)

Turn It Off

10th Feb 2006, 00:19

If the trainee pay was this low three years ago when I started with Nats, I wouldn't have started, i wouldnt have been able to afford to.

Just to put the trainee pay into perspective

Asda Graduate Scheme £21000
Halfords Deputy Store manager £14000
Person taking Car insurance reports over the phone £13000 per annum.
118 188 operator £ 12000
Nats Trainee ATCO £10000

That looks mighty impressive! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Gonzo

10th Feb 2006, 00:46

Just some more perspective....(we could go on round in circles on this one....)

Pilot: no salary, pays for own licences (or part sponsored, paying back the company with a low salary for x years and bonded)
Doctor: no salary etc etc.

I think some examples are misleading: Surely the starting point of the Asda Gradute Scheme member would be the degree course, so no salary there.

And in at least half of your examples, TIO (Halfords manager, call centre operator), they are doing a job, ie. earning money for their employer. Also, what salary would those five employees be on in five years? I don't think it will be anywhere near 50k.

in three years time, when we get presented with the next pay deal, I would be surprised to see trainee ATCOs getting any salary as we know it. Loans/grants/bondage :E is the way it's going.

flower

10th Feb 2006, 06:56

IF Gonzo then you expect there to be no salary then NATS shouldn't be employing them, then at least they can apply for benefits, improvement loans. The problem is that once employed by a company then many of the benefits and loans normal students can get go out of the window.

NATS cannot have it's cake and eat it, either they train in house or they don't. On the one they must treat their employees favourably on the other well that is down to the student if they are prepared to commit thousands of pounds and not then have the definite guarantee of a job.
You could say that is what Airline pilots do, but let's be honest now we don't quite have the same appeal as flying to many out there.

This was just yet another way to cut costs in what is now an industry more interested in money than the safety industry it once was prior to PPP.

DC10RealMan

10th Feb 2006, 07:28

Flower,

I could not agree more. Money is the prime factor nowadays not safety, but then that scenario was one of the major objections to privitisation I believe.

up the tower

10th Feb 2006, 09:30

So far I have seen what appears to be only one comment from a current ATCO stating they could not have coped on the new trainee rate. Everyone else is harping on about look at pilots, you’re not dedicated if money concerns you etc. I wonder how many ATCO's on here, now happily earning their salary could have coped? Many on here would have been receiving nearly twice this rate, over 5 years ago.
I think a little more compassion from some is needed.
Love of the job does not stop the building society knocking on the door asking for the keys when the mortgage payment isn't made; nor does it magically put food on the table for your dependants, and most of all, it doesn't stop you worrying about huge debts; that's one thing to stop the mind being focused on any job.
Maybe NATS should look at setting up a university of its own, only looking at school leavers etc, then students could apply for grants, be means tested etc, and have student loans with lower interest rates over a longer period, after all, you have to earn over 15K (I think) before you need to pay the money back, and any lender is going to fall over themselves to give this money out, as 15K is surpassed after validation. Those that fail, well, your next job will probably pay over that, so you'll have to pay it back. Also conveniently stops tax on earnings should you so desire to get a "Saturday" job, and knocks out council tax etc. For "mature" students, tax credits kick in for those with families etc.
I for one cannot agree with the situation of pilots, I think many nowadays are pulled in by clever advertising of the training schools when in fact there is little or no chance of employment for many, and just a lifetime of debt, but that's a different thread.

callyoushortly

10th Feb 2006, 09:56

TATC

10th Feb 2006, 10:21

up the tower,
Just a small point, when I was at the college, nearly 8 years ago now, yes I did earn the £15k ish start pay plus WAP and trips home, but I KNOW that even at that time we didn't have to pay council tax as we were classified as students. Surely this would allow our current crop of 'students' to take on the loans and schemes aimed at uni type students, whilst allowing them the flexibility of earning, an albeit small wage, and gaining the short course guide to air traffic which catapults them into better wages in the future.
Also, would our students with families not be able to claim top whack benefits with regard to their children?? (Having no family I don't know) I know it's not ideal, but as has been said before, it's a means to an end, and doesn't last very long. The remuneration after a couple of years will soon pay off any loan payments outstanding.
many councils stopped accepting the student tag for council tax while i was there 6 years ago. And I think that the student loans people would have trouble accepting it too when you are employed by a compnay.
Secondly - Benefits are means tested. For every pound you earn over a certain limit then you lose a pound in benefit. Probably be able to claim about a tenner a week. No Housing rebate or council tax rebate as the wages would be deemed too high. Would be able to claim higher rate Tax Credits of about £30 per week - depending on the number of children

GT3

10th Feb 2006, 11:11

Valid ATCO, at college 1998, on approx £20K all in at the time. Would have done it for half that, was highly surprised they paid anything anyway and I was not bonded to the company.

Dances with Boffins

10th Feb 2006, 11:32

Just take a look at the cars in the college car-park and tell me that NATS students are under-paid...:hmm:
When I were a lad at Uni, I went everywhere on a bus. I wasn't contributing anything to the world and thus didn't feel that anyone owed me a salary. Why are trainee ATCOs seen as such a special case that they need to be protected from financial risk whereas just about any other professional trainee in the country puts their life on hold to achieve their goal?
Sure it's a bummer for those who are about to start compared to those that have gone before, but compared to what you get when you validate, it's a small price to pay.
If ERG say we gotta save money, then we gotta save money. Pay trainees less, or valid controllers in the centres?
Like it or not, we is swimming in the privatised waters now, and here there be monsters.
If we get no applicants, they'll put the pay back up and sack a few assistants instead. Or maybe close a Sector or two?:rolleyes:

DwB:cool:

TATC

10th Feb 2006, 12:40

[QUOTE=D
Like it or not, we is swimming in the privatised waters now, and here there be monsters.
If we get no applicants, they'll put the pay back up and sack a few assistants instead. Or maybe close a Sector or two?:rolleyes:
DwB:cool:[/QUOTE]

If they get no applicants then they will have saved the 10000 a year on each persons wages so there will be no need to make any other savings by sacking assistants

GT3

10th Feb 2006, 13:12

And where will the new trainees come from then??

flower

10th Feb 2006, 13:51

It would appear that university applications are now down since the introduction of top up fees, I suspect the same will now happen to us.

Angrel

10th Feb 2006, 14:28

still worrying about the wifes reaction to the money but least im through too stage 2! so i'll worry about that later! looking at it , it is only 9 mths if area so i guess its gonna be bread and water for a while!! but if i get offered, i will do it. just gotta ask the friendly (sic) tax man for some benefits!
and i totally agree with the fact its now a company and profits is the motivator for most of the higher echelons!
:D

here be dragons

callyoushortly

10th Feb 2006, 14:33

It would appear that university applications are now down since the introduction of top up fees, I suspect the same will now happen to us.

The thing is though Flower uni students have to pay out 3k per year to be trained, we pay out 10k a year to train someone. I feel there's a massive difference.

TATC
I take your points and stand corrected.

055166k

10th Feb 2006, 15:25

The deal is done. A fair and democratic voting process has produced a clear result. No matter which corner your points of view came from, this is the time to show support and backing for union representatives. I didn't like the deal but now that it has been adopted I recognise its validity and will be prepared to work within it......that's what solidarity is all about: however it is somewhat disappointing that almost a third of those eligible to vote did not do so. It is that level of general apathy that ensures my complete support for the union even when the deal is not 100% to my liking; the reps had a hard time......to them I say "thanks" for all your work.
On the subject of trainee pay......the sacrifice is relatively short term. For those with families/dependents there is a whole raft of support mechanisms in place through the benefit system and they apply just as much to NATS staff as anyone else. One should not expect to undertake career-change and not take a salary hit......consider it to be an investment in the future.......short-term pain/long-term gain; but it will certainly test your motivation.

chevvron

10th Feb 2006, 15:30

incise

10th Feb 2006, 16:09

lets be honest 10k for trainee pay is small compared to what was previously on offer and of course it is small compared to a 'validated salary' but you can certainly live on 10k for 9-12 months and probably live reasonably comfy. It will just take a wee bit of ingenuity and strict budgeting, kiss bye bye to the luxuries and dont get snared by 'status syndrome'. There is plenty of 'families':ouch: not just individuals that survive on 10k a year with no prospects of higher future earnings:ouch: :ouch: .

Me thinks that this will weed out the people for whom money is the sole reason of wanting entry, and those that think ATC is cushy wee number those who have genuine reasons for wanting to be part of ATC will find a way to cope, nothing comes without sacrifice.

if there are some ouy there with genuine concern for the trainees, please start a thread giving advice on how to live on a budget, tip and tricks to save dosh etc there must be a wealth of experience out there and this will be more beneficial than pity.

GT3

10th Feb 2006, 16:15

Gonzo:
I'm afraid you're wrong; at least three people from my unit couldn't wait to get to the college having spent a minimum of time as operational ATCO's, and that was long before banding was introduced. Two others went to what are now Band 5 units, knowing they wouldn't validate, and were consequently posted to the college, which is what they'd wanted in the first place.

Would say they are simply playing the NATS system to be honest. If the college was Band 1 then people would not go there plain and simple. It would mean that anyone coming from a non-Band 1 unit would mark time as they would possibly be above the current Band 1 pay point they would move to. Also it would not be viewed as a promotion with this unit grading.

Not Long Now

10th Feb 2006, 17:44

OK OK what's wrong with people being attracted by the money?
I know of at least a dozen on my watch who have validated since I arrived on watch that joined because of the lure of big money, and couldn't care less how they earn it, let alone know the difference between a 772 and a 773. Let's face it, ATC/aviation doesn't have to be a great lifelong dream to be able to do the job.

nodelay

10th Feb 2006, 18:26

NATS cannot have it's cake and eat it, either they train in house or they don't. On the one they must treat their employees favourably on the other well that is down to the student if they are prepared to commit thousands of pounds and not then have the definite guarantee of a job.
You could say that is what Airline pilots do, but let's be honest now we don't quite have the same appeal as flying to many out there.
This was just yet another way to cut costs in what is now an industry more interested in money than the safety industry it once was prior to PPP.

Flower, I accept your argument but I don't agree with you. Firstly, ofcourse NATS can train in house, they pay a decent salary for unqualified people who aren't earning the company any money. Then, after spending thousands of pounds on training somebody (£350K(with no definite guarantee of that person validating)) we offer a fantastic salary.

And you can't criticise NATS for being more interested in money than safety, becuase, a) that just is not true, and b) we are all on this forum discussing money, putting forward our opinions, and just becuase I and others don't agree with you does not mean we care any less about safety.

And for the record, I would not want to be a pilot for all the Tea in China. It was always ATC for me.

YourFriendlyATCO!

10th Feb 2006, 18:36

Everyone has different opinions on this. My personal one is that it would've been very hard, if not impossible to survive on 10k with no accomodation allowance.

Out of interest, is that about £600 take home a month?? B&B's down here cost around £400 a month. Think we're going to see a lot of people walking and cycling to the college, as i doubt students will even be able to afford a car!!

Like i said, this is only my personal opinion, but i feel sorry for future cadets. I think we've sold them out a bit. And i don't think this new pay deal will lead to more suited people applying for the job. I think it will actually have the opposite affect. I hope i'm proved wrong.

The Friendly One

flower

10th Feb 2006, 18:41

When I joined the armed forces initially i was of no use to them, I had to be trained. I was paid a living salary , given accommodation and fed. At the end of the training my salary was increased and I became of use to them.
Many other organisations take on people who when they first start earn them no revenue but they accept that once employed by a company they must re-numerate them.
We all of us know just how much work you need to put into the college to pass, you can't get a second job to keep the wolves from the door. Benefits will be extremely limited because they are employed by NATS.
Students will be thinking how the heck do I pay my bills instead of being able to concentrate fully on the course.

My argument is this, either you pay them a living wage during the time at the college or you cease to train people with a salary full stop so they can get self improvement loans.

Does NATS employ Bankrupts, I can see that being a genuine problem for some.

I am one of the many second jobbers who would not be in NATS now if this situation existed back when I joined up. It has nothing to do with lack of commitment it is simple economics.

Nodelay I do not believe an single ATCO or ATSA or engineer doesn't still have the same commitment to safety that we had prior to PPP, I do however believe that the upper echelons of NATS have a different agenda to us coal face workers

BEXIL160

11th Feb 2006, 09:32

Flower.....

Memory is fading a bit, but I think there was/is colleague of yours (a very decent ex RAF, and ex Dunsfold, chap) at EGFF who ended up claiming some sort of family benefits during his training at CATC.

All this in the early 1980's....

His opininons would be worth hearing.

Rgds BEX

eyeinthesky

11th Feb 2006, 09:45

Get real, people!

Quite apart from the very good point already made that some families live 'forever' on £10000 or less with no prospect of big salaries on validation, this is only a short term problem.

The college course is as short as 11 months for some people, then you move onto the T&D scale which is £18k, rising (at Band 5 unit) to £28k on first validation and £42k on second validation. As others have already highlighted, the path upwards is very steep, with earnings topping out not far short of six figures.

If you want to be an ATCO, you should be able to take the year or so of 'hardship' (whatever that means!) in anticipation of a great job with excellent pay prospects thereafter. You could even take out a bank loan to cover your extra needs for the first year, and you'd be able to pay it off within a year after that.

Take a look in the jobs section of any of the national papers and you will see very few jobs paying over £40k, let alone for people who have only joined the company within three years and may be newly qualified in their field.

The analogies with students in general and pilots in particular are valid. Many people who have the desire to be a professional pilot will take a career pay hit and PAY upwards of £55k to an integrated course, PAY their own living costs and have NO guarantee of ANY job afterwards. Then many end up forking out another £10k for a bonded type rating with their employer which they must PAY BACK if they leave within a certain timescale. That's a commitment to a career, and moaning about a year or so being PAID £10k with NO bonding arrangements and a guaranteed job if you pass the stages of the training seems a little churlish to me.

So what if you can't afford a car? The college is 7 miles from the centre of Bournemouth. You can cycle that in 30 mins. Some people splash out loads of money to health clubs to go and spend 30mins every day cycling nowhere! Think how fit you'll get:D

GT3

11th Feb 2006, 11:48

Get real, people!
Quite apart from the very good point already made that some families live 'forever' on £10000 or less with no prospect of big salaries on validation, this is only a short term problem.
The college course is as short as 11 months for some people, then you move onto the T&D scale which is £18k, rising (at Band 5 unit) to £28k on first validation and £42k on second validation. As others have already highlighted, the path upwards is very steep, with earnings topping out not far short of six figures.
If you want to be an ATCO, you should be able to take the year or so of 'hardship' (whatever that means!) in anticipation of a great job with excellent pay prospects thereafter. You could even take out a bank loan to cover your extra needs for the first year, and you'd be able to pay it off within a year after that.
Take a look in the jobs section of any of the national papers and you will see very few jobs paying over £40k, let alone for people who have only joined the company within three years and may be newly qualified in their field.
The analogies with students in general and pilots in particular are valid. Many people who have the desire to be a professional pilot will take a career pay hit and PAY upwards of £55k to an integrated course, PAY their own living costs and have NO guarantee of ANY job afterwards. Then many end up forking out another £10k for a bonded type rating with their employer which they must PAY BACK if they leave within a certain timescale. That's a commitment to a career, and moaning about a year or so being PAID £10k with NO bonding arrangements and a guaranteed job if you pass the stages of the training seems a little churlish to me.
So what if you can't afford a car? The college is 7 miles from the centre of Bournemouth. You can cycle that in 30 mins. Some people splash out loads of money to health clubs to go and spend 30mins every day cycling nowhere! Think how fit you'll get:D

Well said :ok:

G-UNIT

11th Feb 2006, 12:45

"£28k on first validation and £42k on second validation"

Assuming everything goes to plan, how long would this take?

250 kts

11th Feb 2006, 13:03

Are we absolutely sure that they don't get £10k PLUS WAP? I'm sure that I saw that WAP was extra? maybe the old grey matter really is failing me but I could have sworn WAP was on top.

055166k

11th Feb 2006, 13:36

incise
Help is available in many forms. Basic information on tax for example can be found on www.hmrc.gov.uk
On a salary of £10k you would need to adjust for personal allowance and the remainder would be taxed at 10% for the first taxable £2090 and at 22% thereafter.
There is an ongoing campaign "Its OK to Claim"....it is also OK to ask for advice on the whole range of potential benefits. Of course it very much depends on the validity of "need"...we get a lot of crocodile tears on these threads.
Actually, if I was in charge I would instigate a training "bond" recoverable over the first years of employment with borrowing flexibility to suit individual cases and protected by a specialist insurance package: if you want to, it should be possible to set up the same kind of package without the "bond" much in the same way as a personal loan with payment/unemployment protection.

foghorn

11th Feb 2006, 14:36

The college course is as short as 11 months for some people, then you move onto the T&D scale

T&D was voted away with the new pay deal. It has been replaced by new TATC grades earning in the £15 - 17k bracket during unit training (i.e. less than TATCs used to earn whilst in college).

Are we absolutely sure that they don't get £10k PLUS WAP? I'm sure that I saw that WAP was extra? maybe the old grey matter really is failing me but I could have sworn WAP was on top.

The £10,000 includes WAP which will continue to be paid tax free thus boosting the net pay a bit.

Standard Noise

11th Feb 2006, 15:22

Well, assuming I've got the figures right (from the HMRC website),
10K a year split into 6K salary and 4K WAP, with a full personal tax allowance for 2006/7 of 5035, it works out at about 825 sovs a month before allowing for National Insurance (couldn't be arsed working the NI out). However, assuming the whole 10K was salary, it's somewhere about 763 sovs before NI. Not exactly a pittance, is it?
Now don't get me wrong, it's not a fortune, but it's more than I got at the college in the early '90s. When I left NATS in late '95, the college students were earning the same as me, and I was a valid, albeit non-state, ATCO. Maybe the company came to realise that the student salary jackpot just had to be curbed or it would spiral out of control.

I know people who went to UNI, got into debt and didn't get a job paying that much afterwards. And that was in the days before student loans.
It may not be perfect, and may discourage the older, more mature applicants who have families to think of, but we'll just have to live with it. It worries me slightly, as an OJTI, that the standard of student may drop, and become harder to train, but I like a challenge.

flower

11th Feb 2006, 16:13

If it is £6000 a year and the rest WAP it may fall into problems with the minimum wage ,which does still apply to staff who are training.

Bright-Ling

11th Feb 2006, 17:01

Funnily enough I went through Uni getting a total of £9678 in grants...... over three years. Then unpaid for the Post grad stuff.

I went from a fair wage with new car, to a crappy old Fiesta overnight, no holdays and rented a room in digs. (People keep saying that they have well paid jobs and can't afford to leave them - THEN SAVE!!)

If you want something enough then make sacrifices. 'Nuff said. It is not for long.

If anyone has driven past the Hurn car park in the last 6 years they would see something akin to the HR Owen Forecourt there. Breadline? Don't make me larrf.

Oh - and why have people waited until the result was announced to raise all this? Perhaps the debate should have raged before the vote!?!?!?

Mad As A Mad Thing

11th Feb 2006, 17:06

This pay deal just shows what a greedy selfish money grabbing bunch the majority of ATCO's are. The same bunch of hypocrites who bemoan NATS as a company for putting money ahead of other considerations. It's hardly a democratic process when those who get shafted don't get any say in it. Does it give you a nice warm feeling inside that the ATCO 1's company cars & family BUPA are being paid for this way?

Which minority section of the workforce will you hang out to dry to pay for your payrise in three years time? Obviously you won't have any problem justifying why they get paid far too much for what they do compared with you. And I suppose if they don't like it they can always move to a busier unit or different job.

This deal gives notice to all ATCO's at the smaller units & other minorities eg job sharers that the big boys will stop at nothing to ensure they get what they feel they deserve.

Mad As A Mad Thing

11th Feb 2006, 17:09

[quote=.

Oh - and why have people waited until the result was announced to raise all this? Perhaps the debate should have raged before the vote!?!?!?[/quote]

May I refer you to my posts in the NATS pay deal thread.

Bright-Ling

11th Feb 2006, 17:17

....OK thanks for that.....:rolleyes:

So - what did you do (apart from your four posts to date) about raising an "anti yes" vote??? Stand outside with placards at the tower car park roasting your nuts on a brazier???

Hey - here's an idea.... start putting your efforts into the next vote on H2D.

If you are in the Union you are part of a democracy mate. And it didn't go the way you wanted - but that's democracy for you.

For the record - I didn't agree with 100% of what was offered (in fact little of it) - but it is a done deal now.

Move on. :p

B-L :ok:

eyeinthesky

11th Feb 2006, 17:30

Mad as a Mad Thing:

You miss the point. Those of us whom you describe as 'money-grabbing' went through the pay scale as it was then (and I took a 50% pay cut to start in ATC because I wanted the job). Now we are saying that we see no difficulty with a modest salary (which is more than 99.9% of students get) for a short period in order to guarantee better earnings for the rest of your career. Surely one year or so on £10k and then 25 years on upwards of 50k is better than an inflated student salary now and then reduced earnings for the rest of the career.

In short, if you're good enough, you'll get through the college, validate at your unit and never look back. If you're not good enough, you'll be able to go and earn 'better' money in another industry.

I also wouldn't mind betting that some of those who bemoan the students' lot now won't either:
a) refuse the extra money and open a 'Student Hardship Fund'for these poor unfortunates
or:
b) complain when they have made it through the College and are going up the steep pay slope.

Scott Voigt

11th Feb 2006, 18:30

Interesting disscussion, over here we have also lowered the pay for our students drasticly to about what they are going to pay all of you, we also did away with our per diem to them. The good news for them is that our school (really a screen) is only four months long. Then they go to the facility to really train.

regards

Scott

stag1

12th Feb 2006, 18:20

It seems to me that the student pay is the most contentious of issues here,I sympathise with students,however for me the most worrying thing is that around 600 votes weren't returned.Could it be that a lot of ATCOs in regional airports were left stranded by prospect and their pay-briefing?In the end they told us that they didn't have time,a lot of people in my unit were going to base their votes on this briefing.Prospect keep showing us year after year that they simply don't care about certain units.Are they going to try and recruit students?and take a tenner ,or whatever it is ,of their 600pounds?

250 kts

12th Feb 2006, 19:08

Data Dad

12th Feb 2006, 21:22

250 Kts

Aberdeen did not get a visit from Prospect - just an e-mailed PowerPoint presentation.....

DD

stag1

12th Feb 2006, 21:51

data dad has answer my question 250kts.A unit with 66 controllers(or 65).same as Heathrow more or less.

REVOLUTION

13th Feb 2006, 06:20

When I was at the college the car park was full of pretty decent motors (mine included) People will survive on £10 they'll just have to wait til they validate before buying the beamer!

REVOLUTION

13th Feb 2006, 06:21

Sorry £10,000, £10 a year might be a struggle!

TATC

13th Feb 2006, 06:29

Sorry £10,000, £10 a year might be a struggle!
i thought it was 10 pund a month for union membership

surface wind

13th Feb 2006, 08:28

I think that all 'us' valid controllers may be completly missing the point here! The Red Barron is a very smart guy....what is he actually up to? Well who has all the power in NATS at the minute......ATCOs.....how do you get round that....well you flood the market place with student ATCOs, paying them as little as possible and hope as many as possible get through...even if you loose a few along the way it does not matter....you have only lost £10,000! Then you hope all these student ATCOs validate, asap and then, over time, you have the ATCOs by the short and curlies....time to take the medicine again..... :} :}

Hootin an a roarin

13th Feb 2006, 09:32

"250 Kts

Aberdeen did not get a visit from Prospect - just an e-mailed PowerPoint presentation.....

DD"

I may be speaking out of turn but the blame may lay at the door of your local rep. I know for a fact that a member of my unit had booked a day to come and 'present' the pay deal to Aberdeen but when he rang 2 days before to confirm interest nobody new about it as the local rep hadn't promulgated it. He therefore cancelled which is why you only recieved an email presentation.

:ok:

250 kts

13th Feb 2006, 10:06

So which units didn't get a vote? I know our reps went off on a trip for at least 4 days and those units were well north of Watford and in fact Hadrians Wall. Not sure that should have been the responsiblilty of my local reps though.
Surely it would be down to the unit reps to chase up any perceived lack of attention.
Maybe we should have a poll on whether your unit got a brief or not. Come on stag1, put your money where you mouth is and name a few units that didn't get a brief.:( :(

stag1.

I specifically asked for a "few units"

Your claim was that alot of ATCOs at the regional airports were left without presentation because Prospect couldn't be bothered. Well it would appear that Aberdeen didn't get a presentation for whatever reason. That would mean that on a 68% turnout and a unit complement of around 60 maybe 40 votes could have been influenced by that presentation-and that is assuming that more than around 30% of the staff actually bothered to go to the brief. This is the number on my watch that could be bothered and I don't think we're significantly different to any other unit.
I still think you should take it up locally as it does sound as if an attempt was made but a communication break down led to it not taking place.
Not sure why the other 550 people failed to register a vote though.:confused: :confused:

stag1

13th Feb 2006, 10:06

your speaking out of turn ,I knew of the brief well in advance as everyone else in the unit did,but the date kept changing until eventually cancelled.Another worrying thing is,that if you look at the percentage of non-members in Aberdeen compares to other units its quite high,and it continues to rise because of prospect's neglect.

throw a dyce

13th Feb 2006, 11:32

The way that Aberdeen has been treated over the years is only making Prospect's position weaker.Atco 3 downgrading,followed by the ridiculous Banding has caused people to resign from the Union.You can't blame people,after being treated like 4th class Atcos compared with other units.
For whatever reason,not briefing a unit this size,is more or less what we expect for our union.{S}cottish {F}ootball {A}ssociation! I'm still in Prospect,by only just.It certainly is not worth it anymore.:*

250 kts

13th Feb 2006, 11:40

Not sure which bit is factually incorrect.

We have established that Aberdeen seems to have been the ONLY unit without a brief.
A date was arranged but subsequently failed to materialise for whatever reason. It doesn't sound like a lack of desire from the central union's position though.
What % of non-members are there?-if it is significantly higher than average then I would agree that a visit from the "big players" would be sensible.
I still believe that your insinuation that Prospect deliberately disenfranchised a number of the regional units and that that significantly contributed to the 600 who couldn't be bothered to vote should be withdrawn.
I assume that you have now actively arranged a full briefing by your unit rep to see the finer points of this deal and what it will mean to you and more importantly that you will canvass and urge your colleagues to turn up at that briefing.

throw a dyce

13th Feb 2006, 12:57

250 kts.
I would love to see Big Players come here and explain themselves. Airport Atcos, have to work with 4 instersecting runways,a huge mix of traffic,and it has 4 terminals.We also have to validate on Radar,with Class A,D,F,G airspace,a huge mix of traffic,getting constantly bounced by the military.Virtually none of this counts with Banding!
Guess what ? We did get over £21K LESS than a Thames Radar Atco.Single discipline.The pay deal has made the differences bigger.Sure come and explain it please,cos I don't get it.:*

stag1

13th Feb 2006, 13:20

:ok: well spoken throw!

250 kts

13th Feb 2006, 13:32

This was not about banding. This was about whether prospect could be "bothered" to give a presentation at the regional units and if that was the case did it have a bearing on the result.
Every unit has its' traffic issues-yours is no different.:{
It is my inderstanding that the good days for Thames radar ATCOs are over and that BECAUSE of the banding they are being required to validate elsewhere in TC. :)

Still waiting for evidence of other units not getting a brief.
It's really easy for you to sit behind this site and throw stones at central Prospect but I have to say again that locally it seems not to have been up to scratch. Maybe the time has come for a change of rep or additional support for him/her. I know- you could do it and spend lots of your own time doing union business like they probably do.

stag1

13th Feb 2006, 14:05

the bit about banding was only mentioned as an example of how prospect has let is members down in previous ocassions,no one said the rant was about banding.The rant is that they didn't bother to turn up,be it central's fault or our rep I couldn't care less,they both represent prospect.As for non-members well,someone else might know the exact answer but membership is declining rather than going the opposite way.Mind you its quite obvious that prospect don't give a toss about their membership in this parts,so I doubt they'll address the issue.

throw a dyce

13th Feb 2006, 15:59

250kts.
Banding is relevant to this issue.I understood that there was a way of changing Banding this pay deal,if it was wrong as here,or if traffic increased a lot;here again.So what do we get ;zip.Mention it to Prospect and it's like your speaking Double Dutch.
Correct me if I'm wrong,but if someone validates another sector at TC,it is still using one discipline.Approach Radar? Here you have to have Tower,Radar,and do procedural approach on a night shift.That's 2 disciplines and an in-house course.
It's just with a unit this size,that the image given out by Prospect is very bad ,on top of being stitched up in the past.Your on the top of the world,don't count and we don't care.Your Band 2 face front and shut up,and we'll give the money to guys who earn the most anyway.Sorry but I pay them money to represent me:yuk:

flower

13th Feb 2006, 16:20

I wonder how much longer this thread should be kept going.
I didn't vote in favour of the last pay deal for two reasons, the fact it was 3 years and my great unease over the student issue. The actual pay deal I am more than happy with and it is such a shame that what we are actually going to get paid is in some ways overlooked.

I am however with throwadyce over the banding issue and i think many who are not Band5s will always feel this way. We pay exactly the same amount to the union but very much feel , both in terms of NATS and Prospect, second class citizens.

Trying to get new equipment, or even anything done at the Airports relies upon your unit having a decent Airport company much of the time. Aberdeen is also not alone in doing a far greater job than maybe some realise, other so called Airports also do far greater functions controlling Class A airways and so much more besides.
A motion was passed by the Union over 2 years ago about getting units who do more than the approach function to be reassessed for banding, it has never happened. I don't believe NATS will do it either, why should they when they get so much done on the cheap.

250kts there is so much anger out there from the regionals with so many of us feeling let down by the union and the Company,whilst you may wonder why banding has come up I am not at all surprised.

AlanM

13th Feb 2006, 16:28

Sorry but I pay them money to represent me

Then don't stay in the union. A mass exodus would get you noticed.

Hootin an a roarin

13th Feb 2006, 19:29

"Then don't stay in the union. A mass exodus would get you noticed"

Very constructive comment from a band fiver!! There has been an exodus from Aberdeen as has previously been mentioned. I'm just waiting for the old 'if you don't like it then move to Heathrow, Swanwick etc'.

Thanks Mossy

Northerner

13th Feb 2006, 20:41

If you don't like it then why not move to Heathrow/Swanwick etc?
:E

Sorry, couldn't resist it.....:}

However, on a slightly more serious note - why not consider becoming a rep yourself? Then you could represent the views of the folk where you are who you don't feel are being taken much notice of at the moment. Slightly more constructive than just ranting, or declining membership or whatever.

Reps work blooming hard in my experience. Most of our guys were out doing briefings all over the place to ensure everyone understood what was going on. I don't know the ins and outs of why PD didn't, but perhaps you could prevent it happening again?

Personally I prefer that we stand together with the union, if necessary against the management, splitting up and infighting doesn't get us a long way. I appreciate that many feel that things are unfair in places at the moment, I would say do something other than just whinge about it!

Cheers,
N

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

Gonzo

13th Feb 2006, 20:54

If you don't like it.........

Oh, :mad: You beat me to it!!!:p

Northerner

13th Feb 2006, 21:11

DO you like me beating you????? :E :E :E

Not something I do very often I should think..
;)

Bumpy

14th Feb 2006, 08:39

Eyeing with greed, jealousy and parochial nosiness the trainee cars in the car park. What a lovely bunch of people:yuk:
Wonder if those trainees bought those nice cars being successful beforehand in other professions.:rolleyes: Bringing those skills and worldliness to atc.
That won't be hapnin as much anymore so no more green eyes necessary in that direction.:yuk: :yuk:

Who's next. Now what are those ATSA's driving nowadays.

ukatco_535

14th Feb 2006, 08:59

How pathetic;

Once again, when it comes to a discussion about terms and conditions/pay, the banding issue comes up. I work at a band 5 unit; I fully agree that some units work bloody hard and don't get the recognition - for example Farnborough to name but one. I also believe; somewhat controversially, that there are probably a few units who, when all is taken into consideration, work as hard as Heathrow tower controllers. I appreciate ground can be tricky; but air controller on a dual runway operation??

That aside; why do we always get these whinges about 'the big band 5 units stitching up the lower banded units' when it comes to pay?? We all got the same deal this time; banding was never going to be discussed. You were not stitched up by us.

If you look at the voting figures; 1/3rd did not even vote..... are you trying to say that we can have a 65% vote in favour even if all the lower banded/airport units voted no, with a 70% turnout? The maths do not add up - there are people out there at airports who voted yes. Similarly there are people at Band 5 units who voted no.

The question we should be asking is why was there such an apathetic turn out? I have heard stories of people not getting voting papers, and of people not being briefed by the union. These are the issues we should be addressing first, instead of bitching at each other.

We are all supposed to be colleagues, regardless of banding. Until we start being united, the management are always going to walk over us.

That is a particularly worrying fact, considering how limp wristed and ineffective the management are. :hmm:

Hootin an a roarin

14th Feb 2006, 09:23

"How pathetic;

Once again, when it comes to a discussion about terms and conditions/pay, the banding issue comes up. I work at a band 5 unit"

I work at a Band 2 unit and I voted yes! THIS time we all got the same percentage and associated benefits. However don't patronise the bands 1,2 and even 3 units with

"We are all supposed to be colleagues, regardless of banding. Until we start being united, the management are always going to walk over us"

Thats what happened 2 years ago idiot! Thats why we ARE split and being band 5, unless you were the moral minority, you probably voted the banding in!

Pay deals from now on are always going to be about banding as that is when the company was split, you cannot change this unless the whole banding system is readdressed.

Mad As A Mad Thing

14th Feb 2006, 09:56

EXACTLY!!! A union is supposed to represent ALL its members, NOT just the most influential group at the expense of the rest. That's what being united means mate. It meant it 2 years ago over the banding isuue & it meant the same this year over the trainees pay. You can't expect the rest of the company to unite with you when at every opportunity you let management screw those lower down to line your own pockets.

It's hardly surprising that some people don't bother to vote, cos in reality it's not going to turn the vote against the way the big units vote is it? Management know this & that's why they always offer the carrots in your direction & beat the rest of us with the stick.

So don't talk to me about being united until you can convince me you know what it really means.

GT3

14th Feb 2006, 09:57

Heathrow tower controllers. I appreciate ground can be tricky; but air controller on a dual runway operation??

Now you mention it yeah its dead easy.

ukatco_535

14th Feb 2006, 10:32

Compared to working at a single runway airport or an airport with intersecting runways, with circuit traffic etc, yes; it is!! I will still grant you that ground would be interesting, in a not a very nice way!

Mad as a mad thing and hooting and a roaring.

The banding issue happened 2 years ago... it is not going to change in the forseeable future.

What other method do you suggest to pay the units that are more complex/busier??

I do not think that banding is perfect - far from it - but how else can people be 'rewarded' for complexity etc.

I do believe that the banding system should be re-assessed every pay deal instead of it being a done thing.

It's hardly surprising that some people don't bother to vote, cos....

Sorry, but that is not a legitimate argument if people are then going to bitch about things.

I work at a Band 2 unit and I voted yes! THIS time we all got the same percentage and associated benefits. However don't patronise the bands 1,2 and even 3 units with....

So, now you get exactly the same pay deal as band 5 units, you vote yes?? Screw the new trainees tho eh 'cos this time you are all right - now thats showing the united front that you talk about.

Not

Tell you what; lets do the pay deals in future with a 'cost of living' factor thrown in as well... because the paltry inner/outer London weighting does not even begin to touch the difference in costs...

Bettyboop

14th Feb 2006, 10:35

I think everyone is getting a bit hot under the collar. :sad:

I've just had my interview....literally yesterday. When I applied for this job, some time ago, it was on the £15k / year and £400 expenses as told by the ATCO at my assessment day in November 05.
Having found out very recently there'll only be half of this going into my bank account I can honestly say it hasn't made the slightest bit of difference. Yes it will mean extreme tightening of the purse strings but banks are more than happy to throw money at people knowing they'll get more back in return...believe me I know!!! There's people that live on this planet that don't even know what money is never mind a whole £10K/year, just to get all moralistic.
I want this job no matter what and if there's people out there who aren't willing to give up their luxuries for one, two tops years of their lives then they shouldn't even be contemplating applying. Are people really shallow enough to apply for a job just because of money??? I honestly can't stand that and would hate to think they pick some-one like that to train instead of me who has a real passion for it.
Sacrifices have to be made in every aspect of life, I was looking forward to passing my driving test, buying a car and driving to and from college in Bournemouth. Now I'll be bussing it...so what! At least I'll be there...hopefully!!!

Possibly I'm getting a bit hot under the collar myself now...oops!

Betty:p

ukatco_535

14th Feb 2006, 10:40

Bettyboop

Good luck with the interviews etc; I know that I for one, could not have afforded to give up my well paid (but terrible conditions) job to join NATS on todays wages.

You will find as you go through the training that ATCOS are a canny bunch - people that are in this only for the money tend to be found out. I still do not think that that is a good enough reason to pay peanuts.

Hootin an a roarin

14th Feb 2006, 10:43

ATCO_535

"The banding issue happened 2 years ago... it is not going to change in the forseeable future.

What other method do you suggest to pay the units that are more complex/busier??"

The more complex units were getting better pay before the banding system!

"So, now you get exactly the same pay deal as band 5 units, you vote yes?? Screw the new trainees tho eh 'cos this time you are all right - now thats showing the united front that you talk about"

I'm not talking about a united front, we haven't got one. If you read my post that is the point I am making. You are bleating on about being united and sticking together, but seeing as you and your kind screwed your brothers lower down the scale when the banding vote came in, you must understand we feel you now have a real cheek telling us to stick together. You can't s**t on us and then expect us to smile back!!!

Bettyboop

14th Feb 2006, 10:51

Thanks UKATCO 535, its much appreciated.
If I do get accepted I'm not about to turn down the opportunity of a lifetime simply because I can't afford it. I may regret saying that though in months to come but sure.
The Canny Bunch thing....I think I've found that out already, LOL

Betty:p

Bettyboop

Good luck with the interviews etc; I know that I for one, could not have afforded to give up my well paid (but terrible conditions) job to join NATS on todays wages.

You will find as you go through the training that ATCOS are a canny bunch - people that are in this only for the money tend to be found out. I still do not think that that is a good enough reason to pay peanuts.

flower

14th Feb 2006, 11:16

Complexity doesn't really seem to have been the issue when assessing banding, throughput of traffic however was. Some of the most complex units are on the lower bands.

As for stop wingeing and so something about it, well that is exactly what we did, we put a motion through conference which was passed unanimously regarding some units needing to be reassessed as their primary function was not the one upon which the banding was assessed.
It doesn't however matter if it is union policy if it isn't NATS policy.

throw a dyce

14th Feb 2006, 12:08

It never will be NATS policy.If anything they will want to screw the smaller units more.Thats why there is a Spine point 2-7,for ''New Business''.Yeah right Atco 4 I think.It happened before,it can happen again.
The review on Banding came from the Prospect Big Brass. 2 years ago when learning that NatsProspect had screwed us again,they said if the Banding is wrong it can be reviewed next time around.Yeah Right again .
The pay deal has a lot for ATCO 1's.How many are there at Band 1,2,3 units?
Ok there may be a few new posts formed,but this has little effect on the working ATCO.
Oil companies used to pay an Aberdeen allowance for the cost of living etc.Can't see the Band 4/5 boys wearing that one!:p

Gonzo

14th Feb 2006, 17:19

So we're now differentiating between 'busy seats' and 'quiet seats' at the same unit on the same validation? Tell you what, maybe next time I do arrivals on 27L I should get paid more than last week when I did arrivals on 27R. Maybe next time Cardiff go into LVPs with 150m RVR, they should only get paid 1/8 of the hourly rate. Next time time Farnborough have an hour with no outbounds, maybe they should not get paid at all?:E

GT3, Arrivals iseasy, that's why all our trainees have had no problem at all with picking it up in the past few years. :rolleyes:

GT3

14th Feb 2006, 17:36

GT3, Arrivals iseasy, that's why all our trainees have had no problem at all with picking it up in the past few years. :rolleyes:

But it took them a few.... not I will stop there. ;)

Mad As A Mad Thing

14th Feb 2006, 17:51

Of course all you hotshots could validate at any unit in the country if you wanted to. Couldn't you?

Anyway my dad's bigger than your dad.

Gonzo

14th Feb 2006, 18:54

I wouldn't say that, I might struggle with Campbeltown:O

eastern wiseguy

14th Feb 2006, 19:09

[QUOTE]could validate at any unit in the country if you wanted to[QUOTE]

They might struggle on radar though!:D :D

Gonzo would be fine at EGEC

boynefly

14th Feb 2006, 19:24

Where are the details of the pay deal?

250 kts

14th Feb 2006, 20:01

betty,

Check your PMs.

stag1

14th Feb 2006, 21:41

Compared to working at a single runway airport or an airport with intersecting runways, with circuit traffic etc, yes; it is!! I will still grant you that ground would be interesting, in a not a very nice way!
Mad as a mad thing and hooting and a roaring.
The banding issue happened 2 years ago... it is not going to change in the forseeable future.
What other method do you suggest to pay the units that are more complex/busier??
I do not think that banding is perfect - far from it - but how else can people be 'rewarded' for complexity etc.
I do believe that the banding system should be re-assessed every pay deal instead of it being a done thing.
Sorry, but that is not a legitimate argument if people are then going to bitch about things.
So, now you get exactly the same pay deal as band 5 units, you vote yes?? Screw the new trainees tho eh 'cos this time you are all right - now thats showing the united front that you talk about.
Not
Tell you what; lets do the pay deals in future with a 'cost of living' factor thrown in as well... because the paltry inner/outer London weighting does not even begin to touch the difference in costs...
rewarded for complexity? I wish banding was about that.
Lets see multiple runways,traffic mix,yes this is complex,but ..wait a minute,they took all this things out of the equation when calculating complexity!lets see what a/f in the south have multiple rwy ops and a very varied traffic mix?traffic mix was however kept in the equation when calculating complexity on the area side,mmmm how convenient.
sorry for being a cynic but at my unit if you calculate complexity and leave multiple rwy ops and traffic mix out of the equation,its what you call being severely shafted!

throw a dyce

15th Feb 2006, 08:38

Stag 1,
I believe that the Band 4/5 centres get paid for traffic mix,but the Band2 airports didn't.Hmmm:hmm: . I suppose having an R22 doing circuits,with a Tornado behind,and a pile of Helis,turbo-prop and jets waiting,isn't a mix in traffic??
It ain't going to make any difference.Prospect/Nats have no intention of doing anything.As long as the Band 5 units are happy,who cares about the rest.Mind you this band 2 controller only works at a certain rate.Whats the point busting a gut when,they don't pay you for what you actually do.:cool:
Gonzo,
Come and listen in here on a day when all the helis are returning IFR at 2A.Or in the tower when they are returning VFR.Dust off your Radar Rating and work here.It takes as long to validate in the tower at PD as LL,and then you do radar.Could you take the pay cut?:ok:

ukatco_535

15th Feb 2006, 09:19

Throw a Dyce

I am with you on that one - I have done your job before - not at PD but elsewhere... I know how complex it is and at least you guys do not have an ego either; which probably goes a long way in explaining success rates in validating ab initios at different units.

However - the banding issue, whether good or bad, will not go in the forseeable future. What do you think would have happened if it had not been brought in??

Yes there was a pay differential in the old pay scales but if they had not brought banding in, they would have just made the disparity between the scales even greater (a stealthier way of dividing the pay scales) - at least banding is totally visible and everyone can see it warts and all.

The banding should in my opinion be re addressed every pay deal, and all tasks that are regularly undertaken at a unit should be included - after all the company gets paid for providing LARS etc by the government (tho not much addmitedly).

Traffic levels are again on the increase - as shown by the figures for January. London City for example is up about 15% (I think - I do not have figures to hand) - that is going to be a 15% rise in real traffic - not overflights etc, so the complexity and busyness has jumped big time, whereas at the area units, although there has been a rise as well, a lot of that is due to overflying A/C - potentially less difficult to deal with.

Banding is here to stay; no amount of infighting is going to change that. What we need to try to do is ensure that next time round there is a better turn out of people to vote. Apathy only helps the management.

We also need a bit more proactivity from the unions - to not visit units is despicable.

fly bhoy

15th Feb 2006, 10:09

GT3, Arrivals iseasy, that's why all our trainees have had no problem at all with picking it up in the past few years. :rolleyes:

Maybe all it takes is a move to decent watch to master it, haha!!!:} :ouch:

FB:ok:

AeroBatfink

15th Feb 2006, 10:56

I want this job no matter what and if there's people out there who aren't willing to give up their luxuries for one, two tops years of their lives then they shouldn't even be contemplating applying. Are people really shallow enough to apply for a job just because of money??? I honestly can't stand that and would hate to think they pick some-one like that to train instead of me who has a real passion for it.
With all respect, Betty, I think you (and some others) are missing the point somewhat. I find it more than a little patronising for it to be suggested that I (and others in my situation) am fussing about having to give up a few luxuries. Unless you're managing to relocate to the other end of the country, support a young family and service existing debts on £10k a year, then please don't suggest that we are being mercenary in our attitudes. After having checked out a load of property websites, even the most modest 2 bed flat seems to cost around £650 to £700 (a B&B is hardly an option with a baby, is it?) - even using the best estimate of £825 pay after tax, that doesn't leave much for council tax, gas/elec/water, food etc, never mind luxuries such as phone bills, trips back to see the relatives, a car, internet access, and other such frivolities.

Yes, plenty of families do survive on £10000 for a lot longer than a year, and we'd be able to do it where I live now, but rental in Bournemouth is hardly cheap! The only place I've found that would be affordable is Boscombe - anyone familiar with that area? Because from what I've heard, it seems to be a very deprived area populated mostly by drug-addicts. Sounds like a great place to leave my family every day as I set of to the college, don't you think? Of course, that's just what I've been able to find out from where I live, I don't know for sure, and if someone can point out more affordable rents in Bournemouth than I've been able to find so far, I'd be very appreciative to hear from them!

I'm just lucky that I have a partner who's understanding enough to encourage me to follow my dream, even if it means uprooting us both and putting us back to square one financially, but if it gets to the point where she says "we just can't afford to live on this", then what do I do then? Choose between my family and my own selfish career ambitions? Even the most dedicated applicant is bound to think twice when faced with that possibility. I have a great deal of enthusiasm and excitement about applying to become an ATCO, I have a real passion for aviation in general, and I have had since I was a young child. But passion doesn't pay the bills and keep my baby in clothes and nappies.

Another point I like to put forward is that the idea of using the cost of pilot training as a justification for the pay reduction is poorly thought through - I'm sure I'm not the only potential ATCO who has given up on a career as a pilot because of lack of funds. If NATS are headed the same way of forcing prospective employees to pay more and more towards their training, then they are just as short-sighted and just as likely to end up with a similar skills shortage on their hands. There are plenty of career paths to use as examples where intitial training is carried out as a paid employee, the armed forces being the one cited earlier. It's all part of 'investing' in your future workforce. However, I can appreciate that NATS feel they are pouring money down the drain when they pay someone £20k pa, only for them to fail Bournemouth.

At the end of the day, the pay deal is done and there's nothing anyone on here can do about it, but to be told after applying that, should I get in, I'd be paid half as much as we'd budgeted for when we assessed if NATS was a viable career option... well, there's no escaping the fact that it's making us both think long and hard about it. True, the reduced pay might put off those who have no real interest in the job apart from the money, but the simple fact is that NATS are going to lose out on a number of more mature, responsible applicants with a great deal of accumulated transferrable skills to bring to the job. I'm just hoping I can be one of the few who, if offered a place, can find a way of making it happen.

chevvron

15th Feb 2006, 11:53

Throw a Dyce - you're assuming that Band 5 controllers know what an R22 is; I wonder how many actually do 'cos they'll never work one!

AlanM

15th Feb 2006, 11:54

I do.

:):)

Quincy M.E.

15th Feb 2006, 11:55

How many students leave uni, having been paid £10K pa and then step into a job with earning potential of upto £70,000 and above in a fairly short period of time? Not many I would suggest. The success rates of candidates has reduced significantly recently, and with the introduction of 'online' applications combined with a relatively high salary at the college, NATS is running the risk of attracting the wrong type of person. NATS is still offering a good deal for wannabe ATCO's. What we are saying is that we will pay you a certain amount of money whilst you are training, we will pay the £350,000 it costs to get you through training to validation and then we will pay you a respectable salary, which is higher than all of our competitors, (with Bupa cover as extra in a couple of years!!)
I funderstand the family issue, and yes I agree that maybe some allowance could have been made for this, but it hasn't. And if it's what you really want to do, then you will find a way of funding the short fall. After all trainee pilots do.

Im sorry but that is complete bull****; the uni comparison is utter nonsense. Loads of applicants will have already completed a uni course before they apply for NATS and people like myself (interview on 24th) who are changing career are in even deeper sh*t thanks to having mortgages etc. I am seriously considering whether or not to bother turning up.

I am sick of this '....if thats what you really want........' crap. What do you mean? If I really want the job hard enough then a fairy is going to come and deposit a load of cash in the bank? Or maybe if I wanted the job badly enough I could rob the bank itself.

The earning potential is only like that of many other careers available to good grads so the 'wrong type of person' is not the money grabber, more like the spotter!

Not all potential trainee pilots find the money, I used to be one of them and I was thankful that NATS offered a realistic route into operational aviation. Not any more.

ukatco_535

15th Feb 2006, 12:21

Nodelay

It takes about 13 years to get to the top of the scale - not that quick a progression. The £70k you talk about is a band 5 unit.... what about all the other units?

The BUPA deal is a load of cr@p - you will pay tax for the 'privelege' of getting cover that is less than an ATCO 1 gets.

You say the success rate has reduced significantly recently - so how is paying people less going to improve that?? You will not get the second career, mature people through the door.

People leaving uni straight into the job are not the real issue here - £10k is not a bad starting point for them, however;

people will now go to the college on £10k, about £670 a month, with no WAP and no monthly trip home. Considering the fact that you need transport to get to the college, you need accomodation and you need food there is not going to be much left in the pot at the end of the month.

Maybe we should ban students from drinking in their time off and letting their hair down - that will help them save money.

How about introducing uniforms, paid for by the company - that way the students can save on clothing expenditure - especially as they will not need different clothes to go out in as they will be staying in every night.

We are short of ATCOs worldwide as it is, NATS management reckon we will be up to strength by 2008 - that's a complete load of tosh. This pay reduction will not help get quality people through the door.

Getting people to pay for their own tuition al la airline pilots will not work either... when people are interested in aviation they tend to think about aircraft not radar screens - there will always be the pull of wanting to fly - it's a little boys dream. Our company is not savvy enough to get the message out in the public domain about what we actually do. The majority of people do not realise that we dictate to pilots what they should do... Joe Public only thinks about the glamour of being a pilot (which in a civil aircraft would bore me rigid by the way). ATC is never going to have the 'glamour' of an airline pilot ergo we are never going to be able to get people to pay for their own training. We need to provide a suitable package to get the right people through the door.

It's not the lure of money that allows bad people to join the college; it's a poor vetting process in the first place with too much mumbo jumbo from HR types who have never spoken to an aircraft in their lives.

GT3

15th Feb 2006, 12:41

Throw a Dyce - you're assuming that Band 5 controllers know what an R22 is; I wonder how many actually do 'cos they'll never work one!

I know what an R22 is and also work them!

MancBoy

15th Feb 2006, 14:05

I know what one is too!

When I was in TC we used to speak to loads of helicopters particularly chinooks going to Odiham.

Gonzo

15th Feb 2006, 15:51

FlyBhoy, you know I love ya! :ok:

Throw a dyce: 12-14 months up in the arctic circle before I validate, no chance!!!;)

I know what an R22 is, but what's this VFR thing????

throw a dyce

15th Feb 2006, 16:42

Hey Gonzo,
It will be 12-14 years after you validate to escape.Should have turned you into a caber tossing eskimo by then.
VFR,it's good fun.You should try it sometime.That's when it stops snowing.:cool:

Mad As A Mad Thing

15th Feb 2006, 17:04

Of course we do realise that band 5 ATCO's know what R22's are really. They have to spend all that money on something.

:p

Gonzo

15th Feb 2006, 17:16

Throw: Well, that's 10 years sooner than escaping from here!

R22s? Naaa, Band 5 ATCOs have A109Powers!!!

AlanM

15th Feb 2006, 17:28

Hey Mad thing.

Not many of us would dare get into something as bottom of the range as that.

How very dare you! :):ouch:

fly bhoy

15th Feb 2006, 18:36

[QUOTE=Gonzo]FlyBhoy, you know I love ya! :ok:
QUOTE]

Ok now i'm worried!!!!:\

FB:ok:

PPRuNe Radar

15th Feb 2006, 23:51

Shouldn't non radar guys (ASMR don't count) all be Band -5 ? ;) :p

Gonzo

16th Feb 2006, 05:19

Hey, it says 'RAD' on my Licence!

Captain Mayday

16th Feb 2006, 05:24

chevvron

16th Feb 2006, 06:18

Don't worry we're being taken over by the Spanish, we'll all be able to retire at 52.

AeroBatfink

16th Feb 2006, 09:33

Running out of ATCOs .. ?
Running out of oil ... ?
Anyone thought ahead 20 - 25 years .. ? How much oil will be left then ..?
How many commercial jets are actually going to be scooting about ?
How many ATCOs are going to be needed ?
Who's going to pay for the pensions of the 3000 retired ATCOs by then ?
Perhaps in that light - reducing pay for trainee ATCOs - closing ATC College - handing airspace to Ireland - attacking pension etc..etc.. won't seem such surprising actions when they happen ... ? :ouch:
Nah, haven't you heard? We'll all be flying to work in personal tilt-rotors powered by bovine methane by then.
So, if anything, there'll be even more work for ATCOs trying to stop half-asleep commuters bumping into each other - after all, they seem to give a driving licence to anyone, why should it be any different for PAVs?
:eek:

Bettyboop

16th Feb 2006, 14:25

Aerobatfink,

I wasn’t trying to be patronising whatsoever…it’s really not in my nature and I’m sorry you think that. My interview day consisted of 5 of us, 2 of which had really no interest in ATC, simply heard the advert on the radio and thought they’d apply for the job…this had frustrated me as I couldn’t but help think of the many, many people I’d met at the initial selection day and a career as an ATCO was all they thought about. I can understand that not everyone who wants to be one can get through obviously as you need to have the characteristics to be able to do the job well than just do the job.

I have thoroughly digested what you had to say and it saddened me somewhat that you so brazenly put your point across as if you were the only one who is going to be faced with stresses and strains. You do not know what other peoples state of affairs is simply because they are not posting it on a public forum. You could so easily have made it through to college on £20K a year and not passed an element of the training and then been back to square one financially anyway. Not that I’m saying that would happen but nothing in this life is guaranteed……especially money and I’ve come to accept that. For my situation it’s just completely typical of how my life goes that when I get through to the last stage the pay gets reduced dramatically but C’est la vie!

I get the feeling from the way you write that it’s not possibly a career as an ATC is exactly what you want and that you’ve been forced to settle for that and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I for one does not want to end up in college with some-one who is somewhat bitter that they couldn’t become a pilot because of one reason or another.

Certainly think twice about, I understand how much of a struggle it will be but don’t nitpick about something that might not necessarily happen. It’s a bit like counting your eggs before they’ve hatched.

I sincerely hope (should you get accepted) that you decide to give it a go, that it’s a success for you and you can start to see a light at the end of the tunnel. Also I hope you enjoy it as I reckon there’s bound to be nothing like the feeling of looking forward to going into work everyday…and get paid for it!!!
Good luck

Betty:p

Number2

16th Feb 2006, 16:41

Bettyboop
I'm sorry, I'm sure you are a wonderful person with perfectly good intentions but, for someone who hasn't even started at the College, you come across as really, really patronising.
Or is it just me being sensitive!;)

AeroBatfink

16th Feb 2006, 23:57

I wasn’t trying to be patronising whatsoever…it’s really not in my nature and I’m sorry you think that. My interview day consisted of 5 of us, 2 of which had really no interest in ATC, simply heard the advert on the radio and thought they’d apply for the job…this had frustrated me as I couldn’t but help think of the many, many people I’d met at the initial selection day and a career as an ATCO was all they thought about. I can understand that not everyone who wants to be one can get through obviously as you need to have the characteristics to be able to do the job well than just do the job.

My apologies if I offended you, that wasn't my intention. I possibly made my point a little too forcefully. And I'm sorry to hear that you got stuck with interviewees who weren't interested in ATC - obviously, you'd hope that anyone without the proper motivation or capacity to do the job would be weeded out by the selection process. If NATS recruitment deem that I am amongst them, then so be it. As long as I gave it my best I'll be happy. Of course, I'll still think they're making a mistake ;)

I have thoroughly digested what you had to say and it saddened me somewhat that you so brazenly put your point across as if you were the only one who is going to be faced with stresses and strains. You do not know what other peoples state of affairs is simply because they are not posting it on a public forum. You could so easily have made it through to college on £20K a year and not passed an element of the training and then been back to square one financially anyway. Not that I’m saying that would happen but nothing in this life is guaranteed……especially money and I’ve come to accept that. For my situation it’s just completely typical of how my life goes that when I get through to the last stage the pay gets reduced dramatically but C’est la vie!

You're absolutely right - I don't have any idea of other people's state of affairs; I can only speak from my own perspective. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who will find the pay reduction a challenge. I was merely pointing out the fact that the reduction in pay doesn't simply mean fewer luxuries for everyone; for some it'll mean less ability to provide for their families or more debt.

I get the feeling from the way you write that it’s not possibly a career as an ATC is exactly what you want and that you’ve been forced to settle for that and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I for one does not want to end up in college with some-one who is somewhat bitter that they couldn’t become a pilot because of one reason or another.

I couldn't agree more - I wouldn't want to end up at the college with an embittered failed pilot either... or for that matter with someone who is only in it for the money, or someone who believes it's their god-given, transmissible right to work in ATC. But then, we could end up working alongside any one of the people we're at the college with, so I'm of the opinion that it would probably be a good idea to make the effort to get on with everyone. Having done my research fairly thoroughly, and seen a little of ATC from both sides, I about as certain as anyone can be (who doesn't have direct experience of doing the job) that being an ATCO is what I want to do. It seems to be a career that fulfills my criteria of working in the aviation industry, using technology, problem-solving and doing work that never really gets dull and hum-drum. I also suspect it's not necessarily an entry requirement to have wanted to work in ATC since childhood, but I do believe in putting 100% effort into whatever you do. Plus, I'd have to be a little unhinged to go through the selection if I wasn't really decided on the job, don't you think! I'm fairly sure I'm not unhinged.

That's not to say that if I was offered a life of luxury that involved flying floatplanes around my own private archipelago in the south pacific I wouldn't take them up on it, but I reckon there'd be a fair few validated ATCOs who do the same. Just guessing of course, I might be completely wrong... ;)

Certainly think twice about, I understand how much of a struggle it will be but don’t nitpick about something that might not necessarily happen. It’s a bit like counting your eggs before they’ve hatched.

I'd say it's more like thinking ahead. Granted, it might all be immaterial if I don't get accepted. But on the 'off chance' I do get accepted (I hoping it's a little better odds than that if I'm honest, though, as I'm putting a lot of preparation into this), I'm going to need to have counted more than just eggs. I believe thinking ahead is a valuable trait for ATCOs as well, so I hoping that maybe there's a small chance I'm on the right track there...

Anyway, let's draw a line under what are, after all, fairly minor differences of opinion - I'm sure the others on this forum aren't interested in reading our 'to'ing and 'fro'ing. Plus, you never know, we might end up working together.

Also I hope you enjoy it as I reckon there’s bound to be nothing like the feeling of looking forward to going into work everyday…and get paid for it!!!

Thanks. After six years of working in IT, I'm very excited about that prospect! ;)

The best of luck, Betty, and you never know, we might bump into each other somewhere along the line at a Manchester selection day (if you're over from Belfast), or even (fingers crossed) in Bournemouth. :ok:

@ Number2 - ok, rumbled :* ;)

Bandbox4Training

17th Feb 2006, 10:13

I couldn't agree more - I wouldn't want to end up at the college with an embittered failed pilot either... or for that matter with someone who is only in it for the money, or someone who believes it's their god-given, transmissible right to work in ATC.
Don't get your hopes up! :ooh:

AeroBatfink

17th Feb 2006, 11:02

Don't get your hopes up! :ooh:
;) I'm not doing... but like I said, I still think it's important to work effectively with my team irrespective of issues that don't affect how they do the job.

flower

17th Feb 2006, 11:11

All this holier than though business about people doing the job only for the money is driving me nuts.
I enjoy sitting there in front of the radar screen controlling aircraft, but guess what i only work because I need money to live. Given the opportunity and a Lottery win I can assure everyone I will be off.
As for embittered failures getting in, you find those in every occupation and ATC is no different.

Because some choose to do ATC because it pays well and looks after it's staff in the main is not that bad a reason to do any profession, not everyone needs to have a vocation in life :hmm:

anotherthing

17th Feb 2006, 11:36

Aldi were advertising in yesterdays Times...

a precis.

Area Store Management Trainees required... A levels or higher.

Salary whilst training - £38k plus Audi A4, rising over the next 3 years to

£54.5k plus Audi A4.

I have been very reliably informed that the union did well to hang onto £10k for our students - management allegedly wanted it to be no pay whatsoever - I am not sure whether they meant whilst at college or during the whole of the training process.

I would have thought the former as people can choose to go to Bournemouth and live and study - thats black and white, but then they could end up anywhere, so the company would probably have to start paying them then.

Still - retail management anyone?? - It's a lot of pay to protect those metal tubes full of beans as opposed to metal tubes full of beings :D

AeroBatfink

17th Feb 2006, 11:53

@ flower: fair enough, strictly speaking a person's motivation for doing the job is nobody's business but their own, as long as they get the job done. Personally I need more than just money as motivation.

@ anotherthing: the ATCO mentioned NATS had pushed for £5k, but I hadn't realised they were trying to stop paying altogether! :eek: Obviously nobody told the marketing dept who'd written 'get paid while training' very prominently on the advert I saw...

flower

17th Feb 2006, 12:19

[QUOTE=AeroBatfink]@ flower: fair enough, strictly speaking a person's motivation for doing the job is nobody's business but their own, as long as they get the job done. Personally I need more than just money as motivation.
QUOTE]
Yes so do many of us but i am getting rather tired of hearing people have a go at others because they have different reasons for doing a particular job.
It is driving me nuts, and this isn't a pop at you , to hear people not in the job yet saying that only they should be going to interviews as they are the only one who wants the job and they wouldn't want to work along side those with different motivations.

The college and validation training sorts the wheat from the chaff, if you can do the job what does it matter what your reason is for being there.

AeroBatfink

17th Feb 2006, 13:52

Yes so do many of us but i am getting rather tired of hearing people have a go at others because they have different reasons for doing a particular job.
I had my motivation for applying to NATS called into question on a public forum - I think I'm entitled to defend myself. I don't believe I had a go at anybody. If you're referring to this comment:
I couldn't agree more - I wouldn't want to end up at the college with an embittered failed pilot either... or for that matter with someone who is only in it for the money, or someone who believes it's their god-given, transmissible right to work in ATC.
...it was intended as a context to bring up this point:
But then, we could end up working alongside any one of the people we're at the college with, so I'm of the opinion that it would probably be a good idea to make the effort to get on with everyone.
By the way, I'm also fully aware that I'm not the only one in this situation, and anything I write is only written from my own perspective. That's also the case for anyone else on here and shouldn't need pointing out.
It is driving me nuts... to hear people not in the job yet saying that only they should be going to interviews as they are the only one who wants the job...
I might be missing something in a post I've skimmed over, but I'm not sure I've seen anyone on here saying that...
The college and validation training sorts the wheat from the chaff, if you can do the job what does it matter what your reason is for being there.
I imagine so. I also think we're probably largely in agreement over a lot of what's been said; evidently earning reasonable money from work, although not my sole motivation, is still important to me (as it is to everybody), otherwise I wouldn't have written my original post on how the reduced training pay may prove a struggle for trainees with families. Obviously the vast majority of us work to provide an income, rather than just for the fun of it - it would just be nice to be one of the lucky few who actually enjoys how we earn that income.
Anyway, we seem to be drifting this topic away from the subject of the pay deal - my apologies for going OT...

SonicTPA

17th Feb 2006, 15:58

There's been a lot of discussion about the new pay levels at the College, and also for Trainee's when they arrive at their unit.

However, I haven't seen any discussion about the fact that a trainee will not receive UHP (sorry, ASAP as it's called now) until they validate.

Surely that seems to be a bit cruel - to have to work shifts and not be paid for it?

On another tangent, what about the hourly rates of pay for OJTI's training? Do people think that this is open to abuse? Any thoughts about what procedures should be brought in to make it fair to everyone?

Just my 2p for now.

fly bhoy

18th Feb 2006, 09:27

[QUOTE=AeroBatfink]@ flower: fair enough, strictly speaking a person's motivation for doing the job is nobody's business but their own, as long as they get the job done. Personally I need more than just money as motivation.
QUOTE]
Yes so do many of us but i am getting rather tired of hearing people have a go at others because they have different reasons for doing a particular job.
It is driving me nuts, and this isn't a pop at you , to hear people not in the job yet saying that only they should be going to interviews as they are the only one who wants the job and they wouldn't want to work along side those with different motivations.
The college and validation training sorts the wheat from the chaff, if you can do the job what does it matter what your reason is for being there.

Totally agree flower. Well said.

Aerobatfink, I think both you and Flower are in agreement on this one and are arguing the same point here!!!

FB:ok:

siam

18th Feb 2006, 20:56

I cannot think of any other industry that pays its students you should think yourselves lucky you will be getting 10k. You are in effect starting an apprenticeship in ATC I think you will find that no other apprentices in any other trades will get paid so much when starting out with no skills what so ever.

Aerobatfink why you think you should get more money just because you have a family is beyond me. You make your own choices in life if they interfere with your present plans - TOUGH LUCK.

Andanotherthing and aldi manager will work at the very least 12 hours a day 6 days a week believe me they earn their money

Pickled Pheasant

18th Feb 2006, 22:13

Hi,
New to this sort of dispute on the web, but not in the workplace. I watched a very nice Union man with an axe chop numerous bands from under me as I climbed the scale. I am at the top and have no problem with the fact that people are reaching that level quicker than I did. They have the ability to get the same house,car,etc as me but earlier. Am I bitter? No, that is life. Be happy with what you have got. If you want to do the job, go for it. I do not know any other employer who rewards you for simply doing the job with a £1500-3000 pay rise every year, regardless of how the company is doing, until you reach around £80,000. Pilots have to have at least a PPL before they are taken on. Who pays for that? When I started, we had people who were choosing between the City and being an ATCO. The instant decisions they had to make were broadly similar, but the pay in the City was massively better, with a chance of being chopped if you lost the firm's money. We opt for those type of people who are not prepared to lose at all. The pay may have gone down for trainees, but the rewards later on are guaranteed, if you keep your medical. I love my job, and someone is nice enough to pay me an awful lot of money for doing it. And yes, I am worth it, but I'd do it for a lot less if pushed. Try telling a teacher how much you get as an ATCO and justify that figure. Basically, if you want to do it, go for it, beg and borrow, as you will be able to pay it back later.

PP

AeroBatfink

19th Feb 2006, 00:13

Aerobatfink why you think you should get more money just because you have a family is beyond me. You make your own choices in life if they interfere with your present plans - TOUGH LUCK.

For god's sake, I'm not saying I think I should get more money, nor am I saying I think trainees should get more money - I'm simply commenting that NATS' recent decision to halve the training pay, from what us potential trainees thought we might be getting if we get in, is going to make those of us with existing commitments think twice about accepting a place if any of us so happen to beat the 40 to 1 odds of being offered one. I, along with several people on here, am also merely commenting on the irony that, though NATS profess to favour applicants with some maturity, the new pay deal is likely to put off many such potential applicants. I'd like more money to be offered, but so would anyone (who isn't paying it, obviously!) - that's a completely different issue. ;)

And NATS isn't really paying students is it? How would qualifying as an ATCO be a transferrable skill useful to any other industry outside ATC. Are there even many examples of trainees passing Bournemouth then going straight to work for a rival company? It's vocational training, and there are plenty of examples of that around. Granted, they're probably not better paid though...

Basically, if you want to do it, go for it, beg and borrow, as you will be able to pay it back later.Aye - personally, should I be given the opportunity, I'll do my best to do that, and I'm lucky my partner backs me up on that. As I said above though, I imagine there will be many who are put off. But then, if some of them aren't the right people for the job anyway, maybe NATS' strategy is more cunning than everyone gives them credit for... ;)

Hooligan Bill

19th Feb 2006, 07:41

And NATS isn't really paying students is it? How would qualifying as an ATCO be a transferrable skill useful to any other industry outside ATC. Are there even many examples of trainees passing Bournemouth then going straight to work for a rival company? It's vocational training, and there are plenty of examples of that around. Granted, they're probably not better paid though...

Maybe not straight from the College (at the moment), but there are a large number of controllers in the UK and in other parts of the world, who have been through the NATS training system, and now work for other ATC providers. While many of them like myself were chopped when only partially qualified, there are a small, but significant number who have fully validated and then moved on, for various reasons, long before you could say that they had "covered their training costs".

For many years NATS has been supplying the "non-state" sector with a steady stream of partially and fully qualified controllers, resulting in huge savings in training costs for these companies. Since the restructuring of the NATS training courses, the number of "drop outs" with Aerodrome ratings has dropped. With this supply drying up, these companies are now facing two options. The first, like NATS, taking unqualified people and training them from scratch, or, the second and most likely, offering competitive salaries and benefits that might just tempt someone straight out of the college to go and work for them. So there is a real possibility that at some point in the future the situation you describe may become a reality. Therefore be prepared for bonding, the "non-state" companies have no hesitation in doing this to protect their training costs.