What do i need (rating)

[night hawk 150]

Hello to all and hope everyone had a good christmas and will have a great new year.

just a quick question about type rating, i am near the end of my PPL training now and will be getting the IMC, IR, MEP, Night Ratings after that can i fly a BEECH KING AIR 200 with all that or do i need a type rating / check out flights

thanks in advance

craig

[Lowtimer]

The P in MEP stands for Piston... the King Air is turbine powered. I think you will find that you require an individual type rating for the King Air.

[night hawk 150]

Ok thank you for your reply.

i guess i should ask another question that im unsure on and that is what is the biggest (piston plane) inregards to paasenger number for example the BEECH KING AIR 200 has 10 passenger seats.

can anyone tell me what the largest piston plane there is i could fly with a MEP rating

thanks
Craig

[LondonJ]

As I understand it with an MEP rating you can fly any MEP aircraft without a check up to 5700Kg MTOW. Above this size you'll need a type check. However, you will also need to note that by law, with a PPL the PIC must pay all flying expenses for aircraft with more than 5 seats.

Out of interest why do you want to get the IR and IMC?

Finally you need 70 hours P1 before you can get an MEP rating though I wouldn't touch anything as big or complex as a king air with this minimum amount. It is a lot of plane to handle, especially alone.

[Lowtimer]

Piston twins of more than 6 seats that can be flown on a PPL are thin on the ground. When it comes to aircraft of which I have personal experience, the MEP aeroplane sub 5,700kg with the most seats that I can think of is the DH Dragon Rapide, which manages up to eight plus the pilot. Not sure if some of the bigger Cessnas come in under the weight limit? A C404 can carry up to 12, I think, but it's not the sort of thing generally available for PPL hire. Neither is a Rapide, for that matter. Another (theoretical) possibility is the delightful DH.104 Dove / Devon, which I believe can be configured with up to 6 in the cabin and two up front. Very few of those left, though. The BN2 Islander used to carry, I think, 7 pax max plus one pilot. Again, very rare these days.

In practical terms, I reckon six seats including crew is about your lot on a plain PPL-MEP - unless anyone knows of a larger type still available for hire.

[night hawk 150]

londonj

i am doing my IMC, IR as my next route is ATPL ground school and the my CPL

regards
Craig

[mad_jock]

M8 you really don't want to be flying a king air on low hours.

Most of the MCC schools have king air sims for the course if you want to have a play you should be able to get access for under 50 quid per hour.

Although I can assure you after 15mins and your first engine failure on go around you won't be so keen to fly the machine by yourself.

Most twins unless you own your own have an insurance requirment of 50hours MEP. Which if you do a 55hour IR course in a FNPT 1 and your CPL in the twin you might just get enough.


MJ

[night hawk 150]

hi and thanks for your replies

my plan is a little simple i guess for me still being a student any may no understand the true reality but here is my plan.

1. finish PPL

2. Complete Night, IMC, IR

3. Complete MEP Rating

4. Hour Build (usa)

5. Complete ATPL Ground School

6. Complete CPL (A)

once complete i shall do some check flights and try and get some hours as PIC on a twin

do you know any fliying schools that have the KING AIR flight sims as my computer is just to slow for Flight SIms

i understand that there is so many people which huge knowledge and experience so please your views are very important to my way of thinking

Craig

[Hour Builder]

mate no offence but your plans sound a bit all to c0ck

for instance, if going down the professional route as a long term aim, you have to do the ATPL ground school before you get your IR. you also need to hour build before you get the IR, as its an ICAO requirement to have at least 50 hours XC before the IR rating can be issued.

IMC and IR are totally different, and from what you've said so far it doesnt appear you actually know just how different they are. Not only course hours, but the theory side is immensly different.

perhaps you should read Lasors 2006 on the CAA website

www.srg.caa.co.uk

[flyingfemme]

I think what people are getting at Craig, is the why and how you want to fly a B200. It makes a difference....

On the offchance that you can write a large cheque and want to fly your own KingAir; I'd tell you to keep it on the N reg and fly it on an ordinary FAA ME licence - no ratings under 12,500lbs.

If you want to be paid for it then it depends on where you will be doing it, and for whom.

[jai6638]

this is kind of OT, but if I wanted to fly a Turbo Prop and I only had a PPL, what rating would I need to get? Would i just need an individual type rating for the turbo prop aircraft i want to fly or would I frst need to get my MEP and then do an individual type rating?


Thanks

[flyingfemme]

You are in the US, Jai. There are no type ratings under 12,500lbs for a turboprop. On a PPL you can fly a Caravan.....if your insurance company let you.

With a plain vanilla MEL you can fly a Kingair (up to 200).

[mad_jock]

Any school which offers a MCC course will have a sim for you hire if you wish.

Your can do a internet search, look in the back of the mags or the adverts on pprune for MCC providers

MJ

[dwshimoda]

Craig,

Hour Builder is right - you really need to review your approach to this in order to do it in the most time and cost effective route.

As noted, you need to do your ATPL theory before you can do the IR. You do not need to do the IMC as part of the ATPL, but it can help make the IR easier - if you are flying regularly and keep current at it.

I also wouldn't do your MEP until after the your theories - again, keeping current whilst you do the theory - plan on at least 9 months if Distance, less if full-time - will cost you an absolute fortune.

There's loads of resources in the Professional training forum - it's probably worht you spending some time in there and seeing how other people are going about gaining their license.

Good luck with it all though!

DW

[IO540]

Pretty amazing stuff to read. Somebody learning to fly and planning to fly a King Air right away.

As someone who wanted to get a plane (or a share in something half decent) from nearly the start (and got shot down by all instructors I spoke to) I really admire that, and hope it isn't a wind up.

Instructors will really love such a student. Actually, not; most PPL-level instructors will be totally scared of such a student. He will need to get seriously well sorted out on the instructor front, with a real working ATPL man who is current on the type and can teach the right procedures right from the start. The stuff one learns in a PPL belongs to the Dark Ages, for someone wanting to fly IFR.

My input, knowing next to nothing about turboprops, is to get an N-reg one, and get an FAA PPL/IR. I doubt anybody will be willing to teach the type rating to somebody without an IR (certainly true for bizjets).

If the UK (or EASA, a few years down the road) manages to kick out N-reg planes, then the pilot will have to upgrade to a JAA PPL/IR and spend a wad putting the plane on G. That is about the worst case scenario though and it will probably never happen. All the same, I would avoid planes that would have massive certification issues going on G.

[youngskywalker]

Well It's great to have ambition but perhaps you are setting your sights a tad high at this stage, C150 - kingair <100 hours?

Are you aware of the performance of an aircraft like the Kingair?

Unless you have a shed load of dosh and you intend buying your own one (doubt the insurance company would let you) then I would love to know who is going to let you fly one?!

I would suggest if you have your heart set on flying the kingair, you either work at getting your ATPL's and all that goes with them, get the experience then apply for a first officer job with Gama or somebody like that.

Or, you could do the FAA licence, find a kingair on the N reg (no type rating) , and try and blag your way into the right hand seat.

[englishal]

Insurance could (would) be an issue. But other than that, why not? I read about a guy in the US with 50(?) hours ME time, and he did a 737 type rating - just to prove that you don't need to be able to fly MEPs to fly a Boeing.....Everyone I have talked to about the 200 reckons it's easier to fly than a Seneca....so there you go.

[Hour Builder]

lol it probably is easier to fly then the Seneca, but its definately harder to fly then a 150...lol jk

Even though I posted what I did earlier, it was purely to help this guy, who has seen a plane he likes and is aiming to someday fly it. I think thats pretty cool tbh.

good luck

HB

[Flyin'Dutch']

just a quick question about type rating, i am near the end of my PPL training now and will be getting the IMC, IR, MEP, Night Ratings after that can i fly a BEECH KING AIR 200 with all that or do i need a type rating / check out flights

JAR Land

ATPL and type rating

In principle you can do it on a PPL but you would need to have done an High Performace Aeroplane course, the material and test is currently not available for this and the ATPL stuff is considered 'equivalent'

FAA land

As Flyingfemme says.

For both, to be able to make any sensible use of such a machine you need an IR and a few buckets of dosh to pay for the upkeep and running costs.

[Say again s l o w l y]

A king air is not a machine you can just jump into, straight from "normal" PPL flying.

It is big, heavy, fast and complex. Compared to a 73 it isn't difficult, but compare it to most PPL available a/c it is in a different league.

As has been pointed out before, larger a/c aren't more difficult to fly, but they are totally different to operate safely. With the lax attitude most have to reading the POH in something like a PA28, then I shudder to think of the same attitude being applied to something like B200.

It's not impossible by any means, but it is improbable, certainly in JAR land.

A type rating on a king air in the U.K is around £12K I think.

[Whopity]

Amongst all the useful information there is a lot of bunk re 5700Kgs; that went out with the Group B rating in 1999 and does not apply to MEP Class or any JAA aircraft ratings.

[IO540]

At the 2003 MCASD at Middle Wallop there was a CAA presentation, by a grey haired man of about 50-60, who put up slides of various planes including a top-end Gulfstream bizjet (single crew certified) and said all of these can be flown on a PPL.

In the context of private flying, can anyone supply a reference for a single crew twin turboprop requiring anything more than

legally:

a PPL/ME and a type rating, or

practically:

a PPL/ME/IR and the type rating

This applying to both N and G.

I add the IR under "practically" because the fuel efficiency will be lousy unless one can fly high, and in the UK and a few other places that means Class A.

As for the typical PPL not having the technical comprehension to fly a King Air, I'd suggest that is nothing to do with the PPL as such. It is the result of the PPL training business existing solely to make money, not to train pilots. If its job was to train pilots, the PPL would be 100 hours minimum (or as long as it takes), would cost £10k-£20k, would include an IR of some sort, and probably more than 50% of candidates would fail. Whereas presently almost anybody can get a PPL if they hang around for long enough. Also most of the present instructors would not be able to teach it.

I once considered doing a PPL in a complex SEP (TB20). Two factors were a problem: almost no instructor I could find would have understood the aircraft thoroughly, and getting insured for the solo portion would be very hard. The solo flights would have to be done in a spamcan, which partially defeats the point.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There are reasons for people being trained in "spamcans", firstly cost and second simplicity.

In theory you could learn to fly in any sort of a/c, but in reality you are better to run before you can walk.

Would you teach someone to drive in a Ferrari? No. Be realistic and stick to your capabilities. Once you have mastered the basics in something simple, then I or someone else will teach you how to fly something complex.

Personally I wouldn't teach someone from scratch in a TB20 or the like. I would start with a TB9/10 and then move on from there once the basic mechanics of flight had been learnt properly.

IO sometimes you wind me up something rotten! It is the result of the PPL training business existing solely to make money, not to train pilots. is utter b*lls, I don't know many who make much out of teaching, I certainly don't. If I did, then I'd give up the airline career immediately, but I can't as I have a mortgage to pay.

As to the assertation that you couldn't have found an FI who could understand a TB20, do me a favour. It's not exactly an SR71 is it? Since I can find my way around a 737 cockpit and systems fairly well. I don't think the technology is beyond any of us somehow.
The insurance also wouldn't have been too ridiculous, since insurance companies understand that an FI is highly unlikely to send you solo if you weren't ready for it, so the premiums don't change and infact they don't ask if solos are going to happen, only if Training is going to happen on the a/c and they assume you should be trained well enough to cope.

[Whopity]

IO540 Read ANO Schedule 8 (PPL) Para 1.

You can have a 747 type rating on your PPL! The CAA have issued quite a few over the years.

The PPL lets you fly any aeroplane unremunerated provided you meet the requirements of the Type Rating. For single pilot types this is fairly straight forward however; to get a multi-pilot type on a PPL you must also have passed the ATPL writtens, hold a ME IR and have completed both a MCC Course and a Type Raing course and passed the ATPL Skill Test as a co-pilot.

After that lot you only need to do another 15 hours to get a CPL so it seems a bit pointless, unless you can only hold a Class 2 medical and can afford big metal, or its just for fun.

[flyingfemme]

I don't think it stops at turboprops...you only need a CPL to be paid. Fly anything of your own with a PPL and rating as required.

The ATPL thing in the UK comes about because of the absurd fATPL system and the fact that there is so much expense and effort in passing the exams that you only want to do it once.

A Kingair is not difficult to fly. The systems are more complex and require a bit of thought. The aircraft itself is sweet - why do you think they are so popular?

[S-Works]

King air type rating at Bristol is just short of £5k. It is not hard to do on a PPL it involved a week of training including groundschool exams. It actually fly's like a big Duchess rather than Seneca!

Very docile aircraft easy to fly and not a drama on the go around singel or both donkeys turning. With a type rating there are quite a few people who will let you blag a RHS when they need 2 crew ops. I know of several who let PPL's operate this way when they need the secpmd crew, FREE OF CHARGE of course.

It is like anything in life if you are deterimined you can make it happen. The doubters are usually the people who cant do it themselves and rather than self improve prefer to shoot others down.....

[IO540]

Having seen the cockpit of a few King Airs I would say that a fully airways legal year-2000-plus SE piston tourer is likely to have as complex avionics, in terms of both navigation and avionics integration. Probably better.

It will take someone with a good technical brain a few days of ground school to learn that lot.

Yet, no type rating is needed for the SEP...

SAS: sorry to wind you up :O But, it is genuinely my experience. What I wrote, if you read it carefully, is accurate. There are clever instructors who know complex avionics and who know engine management, but they are very rare, and very sought after. Pprune isn't ever going to be representative but I bet you that if you did a survey across the UK, you'd find that 90% of PPL instructors can't even load a route into a GNSx30. And then one gets to the subtleties of avionics (GPS/NAV/autopilot) integration, en-route/SID/STAR/approach GPS sequencing, and engine management....

And flight training is a business after all. If there was a genuine need to train capable pilots, able to fly fully to privileges, one would not boot them out after 45-70 hours with a piece of paper called "a licence to learn". That's no good to anybody.

[Say again s l o w l y]

A type rating at BFC for the Kingair is £1500 for the groundschool, £8500 for the flying and tests and VAT are extra.

So about £12,500 is about right. If on your own a/c it is £4,500 plus VAT.

[IO540]

IOW, roughly zero on the scale of operating a King Air :O

The DOC for a twin PT6 aircraft must be close to £1000/hour.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Yep, not exactly a cheap machine to operate. Let alone buy one in the first place!

It is possible to fly it on a PPL, but if you can afford one, why not just pay for someone else to fly it and you can relax down the back. A pilot is not exactly expensive when compared to the other costs associated with running something as expensive as any twin turbine.

[Saab Dastard]

I think that the concensus is just an IMC - Immense Mountain of Cash! :p

[Whopity]

FF "the absurd fATPL system"

As there is no such thing as "fATPL" it is totally absurd. But some people like to think they have something that they don't have!

[High Wing Drifter]

Whopity,

As there is no such thing as "fATPL"
That's what I thought too, but the term is now mentioned in LASORS 2006.