Inflated Football in cabin?

[Fitzcarraldo]

Would you be happy to carry an inflated football in the cabin of your aircraft?
If not, how about in the hold?

[jettesen]

footballs can be carried in the cabin as long as they have ben slightly depressureised first. a fully inflated ball can not go in cabin as there is no where for the air to go when it becomes under pressure.

[westhawk]

I'm fairly confident in the structural integrity of popular brand footballs since they have been tested for and stand up fairly well to kicking and other forms of user induced abuse such as over-inflation and excessive use. It's those little bags of Fritos and potato chips in the snack basket that scare me. At a cabin altitude of 7,000', the sea level pressure air trapped in the bag exerts an astounding pressure of around 3 PSID across the surface of the bag. Structural failure of the bag material could allow the snack bag air to escape into the cabin, or in extreme cases, explosive de-compression of the bag. Hazarous particles of toxic snack-food debris could then contaminate innocent passengers! Not to mention that "pop" sound they make when failure occurs. Most alarming! It's a wonder more people aren't concerned about this most grave of issues. And the government stands by and does nothing to protect us from this dangerous item, as usual. A payoff to officials from the big snack manufacturers perhaps? If we can ban nail clippers and other dangerous goods from flights, why not snack bags? What do the experts have to say about it?

Urgently awaiting answers,

Westhawk

[Charles Darwin]

If any passenger is wearing football shoes, I´d have the ball deflated.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I never have enough space in my bag anyhow, even if you carry a pump with your deflated football, you'll still have more space for books and duty free.

G

[AirRabbit]

I'm fairly confident in the structural integrity of popular brand footballs since they have been tested for and stand up fairly well to kicking and other forms of user induced abuse such as over-inflation and excessive use. It's those little bags of Fritos and potato chips in the snack basket that scare me. At a cabin altitude of 7,000', the sea level pressure air trapped in the bag exerts an astounding pressure of around 3 PSID across the surface of the bag. Structural failure of the bag material could allow the snack bag air to escape into the cabin, or in extreme cases, explosive de-compression of the bag. Hazarous particles of toxic snack-food debris could then contaminate innocent passengers! Not to mention that "pop" sound they make when failure occurs. Most alarming! It's a wonder more people aren't concerned about this most grave of issues. And the government stands by and does nothing to protect us from this dangerous item, as usual. A payoff to officials from the big snack manufacturers perhaps? If we can ban nail clippers and other dangerous goods from flights, why not snack bags? What do the experts have to say about it? Urgently awaiting answers.
Well, it may be an overly simplistic approach in comparison to the significance of the problem, but I’d vote to use the banned nail clippers to inflict a small, but sufficient, pressure relief opening in each potato chip or Frito bag to avoid the catastrophic results you’ve described. I would think this would be effective in that a similar pressure relief mechanism is apparently operational in the cranial support structure of those who are worried about explosive footballs.

[Fitzcarraldo]

OK so, deflating the ball is the obvious answer, but what if the owner doesn't have the tool needed to do that? A leather ball requires a 'needle' probe which would probably be confiscated.
And I don't carry one on me.

[Avtrician]

A popular TV show (Mythbusters) recently tested an infatable bra to see if it would burst. It took depressurisation to altitiudes in excess of 47000Ft (altimeter they were using didnt go any higher) to cause an appreciable increase in size, but didnt burst. Conclusion was if you stepped out of the shuttle in orbit, it might burst but that would be the least of your worries.

Take a football and test it, pump it up hard and take a press reading. Then pump it up untill it bursts (noting the pressure as you go) if its hard at 20 PSI and bursts at 100, its not likely to blow in a cabin.

[Gary Lager]

Have carried footballs lots of times - there really is no problem.

Standard football pressure is around 13psid - cabin pressure at SL is about 14.7 psi and at 8000' cabin altitude about 10psi - so there's only an extra 4-5 odd psi on a football that's designed to take 28psi (absolute).

I may have got diff and abs confused there, apologies. But it's not a big difference anyway, IMHO.

In any case, like balloons, if a football did burst it wouldn't explode outwards like a bomb - if you watch high-speed film of balloons bursting, the failure begins with a small rip or hole and the skin retracts along itself, not expanding outwards.

[Stan Woolley]

I didn't think there was any problem either until recently when we couldn't deflate one and put it in the front hold anyway (B737).

On arrival I went to get it and was quite shocked to find it a tattered mess!

Maybe it was an odd ball or something but it blew up for sure. I have since changed my views.

[Cakov]

Stan... did Servisair put the football in the hold for you? That could explain its state when you got it back!

;)

[Colonel Klink]

My operator insists on depressurising the ball or it doesn't travel. Several have been left behind. The last thing the passengers in the cabin need (especially at the moment) is a loud bang of a ball exploding!!

[Jetstream Rider]

Use the pin on your name badge to deflate it a bit. Problem solved.

[bobcat4]

Going from sea level to deep space would add about 15 psi. So if the ball can take 15 psi more than its current pressure, any altitude would be safe (that is, for the ball).

[jettesen]

have you ever seen a tube of pringles inflate due to the pressure after ake off? well just put that into the inside of a ball and you will have one big bang

[FE Hoppy]

have you ever seen what happens to a tube of pringles when 22 men kick it around for 90 mins?

Footballs are not going to explode in the cabin. Beach balls or balloons may if fully inflated at sea level.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Seems I've thrown the cat among the pigeons.
A popular TV show (Mythbusters) recently tested an infatable bra to see if it would burst. It took depressurisation to altitiudes in excess of 47000Ft (altimeter they were using didnt go any higher) to cause an appreciable increase in size, but didnt burst. That was a bra. What was the initial psi of the 'inflatable' bra? Was it more or less than a football? Suppose you have a pressurisation problem - maybe that ball might let go at way less than 47,000 ft diff - just to compound your problems!
so there's only an extra 4-5 odd psi on a football that's designed to take 28psi (absolute). Are all inflatable bra's pressure tested to 47,000'? Are all footballs? Who says the quality control is uniform?
On arrival I went to get it and was quite shocked to find it a tattered mess!..... it blew up for sure.
:ooh:
Use the pin on your name badge to deflate it a bit. Problem solved. Damaging passengers property? Surely thats the baggage handlers job!

[Jet_A_Knight]

Carrying around a packet of Fritos in your nav bag can sometimes serve as a timely reminder to 'get the bleeds on' :ok:

[Spitoon]

I'm afraid I'm no expert on inflatable footballs in an aircraft cabin but I've seen a few inflated egos syurvive a sector or two intact. Don't know if that adds constructively to the debate though!

[rubik101]

The properly constructed, hard rubber or leather footballs present no problem whatsoever, even at the normal inflation pressure. The plastic or beach ball type of ball would need to be deflated.

[maxalt]

.....because......????

[GrahamCurry]

>>Standard football pressure is around 13psid - cabin pressure at SL is about 14.7 psi and at 8000' cabin altitude about 10psi - so there's only an extra 4-5 odd psi on a football that's designed to take 28psi (absolute).
>>I may have got diff and abs confused there, apologies. But it's not a big difference anyway, IMHO.
>>In any case, like balloons, if a football did burst it wouldn't explode outwards like a bomb - if you watch high-speed film of balloons bursting, the failure begins with a small rip or hole and the skin retracts along itself, not expanding outwards.

*******************************

Woa there. If a gauge measures 13 psi within the football this is in addition to 14.7 psi atmospheric. Where do you get the 28 psi 'absolute figure from (and how would you measure it - in a vacuum?)?
Balloons retract because they are elastically stretched when inflated. Puncturing them releases the forces keeping the balloon stretched, so it implodes. A football tends to be rigid (within limits) and so explosive destruction could propel pieces outwards as the internal pressure escapes. It's the principle of a bomb . . .

[Jetstream Rider]

Woa there. If a gauge measures 13 psi within the football this is in addition to 14.7 psi atmospheric.

The pressure of 13 PSI is the pressure difference between the inside and outside. Adding 14.7 to 13 to get the absloute pressure inside the ball has nothing to do with it. A ball will burst if the pressure DIFFERENCE between the inside and outside is too large. If you reduce ambient pressure by 5 PSI, the pressure difference between the inside and outside will have changed by 5 PSI. That is the number you should look at.

If a ball can be inflated to 28PSI gauge pressure, then it will survive (in the case above).

A beach ball would not survive as large a change in pressure as a football, so deflating it would be sensible and easy.

On a flight I operated one day the Ccrew brought up a football and asked us about it. We were unable to deflate it and so we stuck it in a wardrobe cautioning the passenger that it might burst. At the end of the flight it was fine. I wouldn't want to be next to a bursting football, hence putting it in the wardrobe.

No one has yet mentioned that a ball will expand as the pressure inside increases. In this case it is likely to have a negligible effect though!

[maxalt]

Do we have a consensus?

[AirRabbit]

I would say, Yes, we have reached a consensus.

Those who are legitimately concerned that a fully and properly inflated football might uncontrollably expand at the cabin altitudes maintained in modern aircraft and are likely to explode and do damage to the aircraft and/or injure persons on board will do all that is necessary to deflate said football or have the estranged passenger FedEx or UPS the potential “explosive device” to its final destination.

The rest of the aviation community won’t.

[Stan Woolley]

rubik101

The properly constructed, hard rubber or leather footballs present no problem whatsoever, even at the normal inflation pressure.

The ball that blew up in the hold of my 737NG was leather and appeared properly constructed to me!

I'm not making this up, it's the first instance I'm aware of in 16 years flying Boeings but don't tell me it didn't happen. :rolleyes:

[Maude Charlee]

Kill two birds with one stone - use staples to attach the baggage tags to the football before placing it in the hold. AAA which won't fall off those darn tricky plastic surfaces, and instant pressure relief.

Who says Servisair employ clowns? :E

[Old Smokey]

jettesen,

You must have some mighty strong chip bags where you come from.

A chip bag of greater structural integrity than a football?:sad:

Regards,

Old Smokey

[HELOFAN]

Not sure if this adds weight to the debate but I have seen several times packets of chips expand to the point I was very conserned about losing an eye to a thin chip as I opened the packet LOL.
Serious though they expand like crazy at altitude when the cabin is pressuriesed.

weird but true , I wouldnt be surprised if a football would explode if it was pumped hard enough.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

A ball is far more likely to explode in an unpressurised cabin at @40000' than in the cabin at cabalt @8000'

So perhaps all balls should be carried in the cabin?

p.s. We don't have this issue in a C-130 as our cabin is our hold!!

[Jetstream Rider]

Our holds are pressurised - otherwise the floor would have to be extremely stong and therefore heavy.

Some turboprops have unpressurised pods and hold though, but then they don't go tremendously high.

The holds are not usually as well heated as the cabin though.

[Standby Scum]

A box of aerosol Prist fuel aditive in an unpressurised Citation nose locker would .......:(

[LGB]

... a pair of Nike Air shoes in the unpressurized hold of a lear 31A did not survive FL430. One of them had burst the shock absorbing air chamber, whilst the other survived. But what good is one shoe?

Regarding footballs in the cabin, leather vs. rubber footbals, one should consider that the rubber footbal being more expandable, it should have pressure differential increase less that the leather version.

On a more important note than 7 or 8 thousand feet, how about a cabin depressurisation at FL410?

[Victor Mike]

Atctually had this on taxi out last month, crew came up with fully inflated ball saying what do we do with this? After failing miserably to deflate it with anything we could find on the aircraft, ended up stowing it in an empty trolley. To our pleasant surprise it survived the flight. (Think the cabin got to about 7000')