Whither the flying instructor?

[mysteryshopper]

I've just received my October 2004 copy of General Aviation - the journal of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association. I was disheartened to read on page 40 what a young gentleman who pilots a Cessna 172 on scenic flights had to say about instructing :-

"Getting an Instructor rating would not further my career ambitions one bit. It would cost me perhaps £5000, and the hours it would earn me would effectively be useless in the job market. Airlines are barely interested in instructor hours, where you sit with your arms crossed while someone else does the flying."

He goes on to say that his experience flying a Reims Rocket fitted with a variable pitch prop. is of greater value on a C.V. and ends saying "there is little incentive for young people like me to pay for the (instructor) rating".

I wondered if any of my instructor colleagues would agree with his comments - in particular the points about lack of incentives and about sitting with ones' arms crossed whilst instructing? I certainly spend all my time in the cockpit fully alert and ready to fly the aircraft should a student need me to and staying on top of whatever situation we are in. As an advanced car driver will consider the road ahead, I, as an instructor, must consider all the possible combinations of events, weather, traffic, R/T and student response during a flight. All this whilst covering the air exercise itself and seizing any opportunities to cover cross-curricular learning objectives if they arise - surely this can only lead to a greater depth of understanding and airmanship on my part which in turn leads to the furthering of my career? I also feel that my experience so far instructing in SEP aircraft has lead to a well adjusted balance of safety and skill, something which might not be so finely tuned otherwise.

I am personally very happy with instructing as my career, so the comments about relevancy of hours don't worry me - in fact I think the world of flight instruction would be a better place without hours builders. A number of students have asked me recently if I'm going to stop instructing to work for an airline. Sadly, when I reply "no - I am very happy instructing", I get the feeling they simply don't believe me because so many of my colleagues would leave instructing if they could.

As for incentives, I don't think you can beat that proud feeling of sending a student off for their first solo circuit, first solo navigation exercise, PPL skills test or indeed any dual flight when the student has shown improvement and enjoyment. Maybe this feel-good factor is the incentive that we need to be promoting in our industry magazines in order to attract instructors of a suitable calibre into our schools for the future, rather than simply dumbing down instructing as a means to an end? As the Department for Education and Employment would say - "Use your head".

The article also prompts a few questions about the gentleman's own training - did his instructor sit in the right hand seat with arms folded every flight? Or perhaps the student was so overloaded whilst training he didn't even notice what his instructor was doing? Maybe neither is true, but one thing is for sure - the subtleties of instructing were too shallow for our budding commercial pilot to pick up on. He is right that becoming an instructor would not further his career ambitions - his perception of instructing as a method of hours building is an attitude we are better off without.

Your thoughts will be appreciated,

Mystery Shopper

[Crosswind Limits]

I too read this whilst sitting at my flying club today and my thoughts were 'what a plonker' for saying these things, as if flying a Reims Rocket fitted a variable pitch prop makes that much difference! Purrrrlease!! :rolleyes:

[fireflybob]

mysteryshopper, I am with you all the way on this one and I too was surprised to see his comments.

If you are doing the instructing job properly it's work but very satisfying work at that! Having done the airline pilot bit for circa 25 years and instructing throughout most of that time there is, I agree, nothing quite like teaching someone to fly. Every student and flight is different and, in my opiniion, nobody forgets their basic training and flying instructor(s) - I can remember my first solo like it was yesterday.

Perhaps we should write a letter to the mag to redress the balance!

[Tinstaafl]

Only the ignorant who have never instructed say such things as that pilot. :rolleyes:

[FlyingForFun]

I think Crosswind's word - "Plonker" - sums this chap up quite nicely!

In addition to all of Shopper's excellent analysis, I'd also like to point out to our plonker that, in the unlikely event that he ever finds anyone suitably impressed with his time on the Reims Rocket (with that all-important variable pitch prop) to give him a "proper" job, my guess is that he will sit there for most of the flight with his arms crossed while the autopilot does most of the flying. I know that autopilots need monitoring, but I'd guess (having never flown with anything more than a single-axis autopilot) they need a little less monitoring than the average student?

FFF
-----------------

[Snigs]

So let this young chap fly around in his 172 for the 40 or so hours that £5000 will give him. Then ask said chap to perform a PFL, I guarantee he'd screw it up. Ask an instructor to perform a PFL and he'd get in 99% of the time.

What this young chap fails to appreciate is that you actually learn how to fly during a FIC, and not just how to operate the controls.

But as Tinny said, those who never have, will never know!

[EGBKFLYER]

I haven’t read the article yet but sounds to me like someone who has had some half-baked advice and is a bit immature. Let’s hope he learns a bit and thinks more before engaging mouth the next time…

I’m not an instructor but in a position where I could choose to become one. What puts me off slightly is the T & C. Given the experience instructors I know have, they are paid a pitiful amount and work very hard for it. It must also be a bit disheartening to be asked regularly when you’re going to get a ‘proper’ flying job. Helicopter instructors seem to be a little better off – certainly some of the hourly rates I’ve heard make the job more sustainable as a career. I don’t know how we solve the catch22 though – pay the instructors more but don’t make flying prohibitively expensive (there are enough trying to do that already).

On the hours-builders side, I don’t necessarily think they are a bad thing. I know instructors who started that way and liked it so much they stayed. There’s also one who got his jet job, did that and came back because he likes to instruct. I believe that if someone is prepared to put in the effort and try to do their best for their student, they should be welcomed. Until there is another equally valuable and economical way to build hours and the pay reflects the role more, I can’t see things changing much. Fair assessment?

[Sleeve Wing]

I suppose on this Forum I'm talking to the converted.
Instructing can be the most satisfying job ever and I've been at it, on and off, since 1967. Learned more about flying this way than I ever did in the airline business.
I'm ignoring his attitude because he's obviously very young, spoilt and self-centred. He wouldn't make it as an instructor anyway as he hasn't any consideration for anyone but himself.
But, you know, our tame plonker has a point.
He WILL be putting in the hours that seem to be the main criteria for getting an interview - and cheaper than doing an FIC.
His problem's going to be MCC and whether he can manage to disguise
his arrogant total lack of it at interview.

Rgds, Sleeve.

;)

[mysteryshopper]

Thanks for all your thoughts - I will be writing to the magazine and offering them an article on being/becoming an instructor in the near future - watch this space.

Regards
Mystery Shopper

EGBKFLYER - I would agree that the time and commitment required to train as an FI is huge - however I feel that if we start encouraging pilots to consider instructing as a career, the industry may actually start to turn around and reward instructors for what they are worth. I would say you're assessment is absolutely spot on with regard to keen and student orientated instructors - I am lucky enough to work with two people who fit that description. I also agree with your comment that the responsibilities of instructors are not adequately rewarded financially. The flight training industry needs a rethink - thankfully I may be in the correct position to start doing something about it - only on a small scale, but good ideas tend to spread quickly! Thanks for your comments

SLEEVE WING - you're absolutely right about his hours, in that they will be useful to him. I think the point the article is trying to make is that young pilots who are interested in a career in aviation will not consider training as an instructor because they may not be able to move on to other things - such as flying for an airline. Hopefully a well written article about being/becoming an instructor might spark some interest - we can but wait and see. Thank you for replying.

[Sleeve Wing]

Mysteryshopper.
Think your idea for a constructive piece in the AOPA house mag., concerning becoming and working as an FI, is long overdue.

I feel the problem of adequate remuneration for FIs will be with us for some time though.
The dilemma is threefold.
1. Some low hour guys, straight out of training, will always be prepared
to take a job for peanuts just to get on the ladder.

2. Good or bad, retirees who return to the training world, with the best
of intentions, nearly always have the lifeboat of a bit of a pension to
cushion the deficit.

3. Until we no longer have to compete with the tax-loaded price of fuel,
we will always have to suffer the ignominy of being the simplest
device in keeping the overall cost of flying training at a reasonable
level.
Should the Flying Club fuel rebate ever be reintroduced (fat chance
of that) then we might be in a stronger position.

You're right. Young and enthusiastic, retired and experienced, we
should be payed a decent rate. But that's a different thread
altogether.

Rgds, Sleeve. :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Fact is thought that the airlines really don't take instructing hours very seriously. A crap paying job on Sheds or 748's or Air Taxi Aztrucks is going to put you streets ahead of a job instructing.

I well remember sounding out the pilot managers from Aer Lingus, Airtours and BA whose cadets I was teaching for CPL IR in Jerez. Even though I was teaching their cadets they had no interest in recruiting the instructors.

They either want you well experienced or nothing at all - instructing puts you into a kind of hinterland. With is based on total tosh but it does seem to be the case.

A fine profession though.

Cheers

WWW

[Spart]

Mystery Shopper,

From personal experience most magazines will accept any reasonable submission and it would save you and them time to just write it and send it off. In the unlikely event they don't want it I'm sure it'll be appreciated on websites such as this one.

Personally I'll look forward to reading it.

Regards, S

[wobblyprop]

Having spent a year, after finishing my cpl/ir, having no luck with interviews at all, I decided to do my FI rating.

I actually, and this surprised me, enjoy instructing. I cannot afford to give up my day job to become a full-time instructor. It's keeping me current and adding to my hours, slowly but surely.

www's comment, true though it maybe, justifies the comments of the article's subject and makes me feel like I wasted my time and money and puts me even further from getting an airline job.

500 hours instructing, just to break even :{

[excrab]

WWW,

That may be true if you expect to progress straight to a big shiny jet, but smaller airlines operating turboprops may still be interested in instructional hours.

What they won't be very interested in, unfortunately, are instructional hours spent at PPL level - anyone aiming for an airline career needs to be thinking about IR and CPL instruction as soon as the chance arises, and even if a flying school wanted to bond you for multi time or instructor ratings it is immaterial, as the pay rise you get going to the right hand seat of almost any airline would make it easy to pay off the bond.

Back to the original part of the thread, I spend a lot of time instructing sitting with my arms crossed, and have done for the last twenty something years - if you sit in a C152 there really isn't any other comfortable place to put them and it doesn't mean you aren't fully alert - after all how often do you actually have to grab the controls to save yourself, rather than just advising the student how to recover from the situation they may have got them selves into? (I am not advocating this for a students first few attempts at landing when you may want to be a little closer to the controls, of course).

If mystery shopper is correct that the article suggests that training as an instuctor is a bad thing for those looking for a career in aviation then surely that is a good thing for career instructors. Less frozen ATPL holders prepared to work for peanuts means better salaries - eventualy - for those who want to instruct.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think there is only one meaningfull criteria for becoming a FI. You have to genuinely like teaching. If you find teachng satisfying then you will enjoy your time as an instructor. If you do not then you will rapidly become frustrated and do yourself and your students a great disfavour. :( Therefore I think it is a wonderfull thing that this pratt does not want to be an instructor, because with his attitude he would be terrible. I do not know how it works in the UK/EU but in North America 500 hrs flying scenic flights in a 172 will be looked on as 1 hr 500 tmes by most chief pilots. It would not be seen as any more usefull preparation for the next step, FO in a MULTI IFR airplane, than 500 hrs of instruction. :suspect: Finaly I would like to note that in my business, fire bombing, I think my extensive flight instrutor experience has served me well. It gave me good stick and rudder skills, a disciplined approach to flight operations and excellent comunications skills.:ok:

[sickBocks]

...and Instructing will increase your capacity quite a lot as there is so much to think about on a busy Saturday afternoon with iffy Wx out in the local area. This capacity will be useful when attempting the 'where's my jet job?' type rating. It will also provide ample examples for the 'describe a situation where...' questions.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Flying single pilot multi engine IFR air taxi will increase your capacity a heck of a lot more and more usefully though. As will hauling newspapers from Coventry to Belfast in the dead of winter in a barely lit non-GPS 1950's turboprop...

Instructing is more useful than sitting on your arse sending out CVs. But most other flying jobs are more useful.

Didn't stop me being an instructor for many years though - and in hindsight - enjoying it.

Cheers

WWW

[Send Clowns]

Instructing has improved my flying, my situational awareness and my CRM immensely. I am fortunate that it will also be directly relevant to my future career, as I don't have "big shiny jet" syndrome, and so many of the operators I want to work for ask for hours (often an AOC requirement), but don't have a blanket negative response to instructional hours.

However I would also be far more confidant in a sim check - my currency and improved handling skills certainly showed when hand flying a Tristar sim during an auto-pilot malfunction on my MCC (assymetric engine out as well), correct basic flying skills apply as much to a big jet as to a PA-28! Whether I hop into a Kingair or a 727 sim after an interview, I can impress more if I have done 400 hours in the last year as a part-time instructor than if I'd scraped together 20 hours plus an IR renewal!

[fireflybob]

Another bonus with having done flying instruction is that it might stand you in good stead for a training position with an airline later on.

When I was offered the training captain role the fact that I had been involved extensively in many different forms of training made a big difference - think long term!

[pilotbear]

I fly single pilot IFR in a Cessna 310 in UK and Europe and instruct CPL/ME/IR, both compliment each other. I teach differently since flying the commercial stuff especially on the IR. I can be more realistic in the approach to what you need to be able to do.
When you have to fly it for real on your own( also into Belfast) on a really crappy night it gets your attention and you realise what it is you are trying to get the student to do.

Still finding it hard to get a turboprop or jet job even with this, 2000hrs, 550 multi, 600 IFR two licences plus 300hrs seaplane charter and low level forestry fire patrol in Canada and 900hrs CRI/IRI
How much experience do they want?

[74Freight]

quote "crap paying job flying a shed or 748" from www.
i wonder which company this was aimed at????
Those of us at the bottom end of commercial flying may earn slightly more than instructors but I found instrucing much more fun and rewarding than hanging about in airport terminals waiting for a postioning flight home afer being awake for 28 hours.
If it was slightly better paid, I would go back to instructing and let someone younger do my job.

[Craggenmore]

Can I get some advice please.

You come out of flight school with low hours and want to fly. You dont get a flying role due to being low hours. I want to get an instructor rating (whatever the weather), but this appears harmful to a future within a flying role outside of instruction (having read this thread.)

Everyone was once taught by an instructor. They helped them realise their dream to get to where they are today.

Never forget that.

So why do pilot descision makers (once taught by an instructor) think things like its the same hour 500 times? To be honest, flying a company FMC route from Heathrow to Nice is the same 1.5 hours many many times over during a career, (unless your'e on the lookout because you think that the Captain is likely to put you into a spin when practising stalls on the way down to Nice.)

I have chosed to work in a specialist field and that is what I want to do.

I refuse to work elsewhere and fly the odd hour at the weekend. That is what I used to do...

What should I do as a low hour bod at this cross roads?

Craggs

[headlesshorseman]

haven't seen the aforementioned article yet, but already know who the individual is. not a way to make friends and influence people.

one thing's for sure, instructional hours are a damn sight more useful than doing nothing at all, when you go for that interview. also, they are P1 hours. and they were very useful in me getting my first airline job. so, each case to it's individual merits.

HH

[aces low]

Its not just about aircraft handling. Its also about being in command.

Being an instructor means you have to make 'command decisions' early in your career...and expose yourself to jeopardy. Someone who has gone through a CPL/IR (especially if on an integrated course) will not make their first genuine command decision until in the left hand seat of an airliner.

As an instructor you make flight safety decisions on a daily basis...and there is often no person to turn to to see if that decision was right/sensible. Decision making skills get honed (with immediate feedback if your decision making is poor). Just the kind of thing to have when you're faced with a problem that the SOPs cannot guide on.

I have 1000 hours pilot in command and have yet to get an airline interview (let alone a job). These hours have been 'in command'...i.e. if it turns to sh1t in any way then it is my role to get it back.

As the axiom goes. A superior pilot does not need to use his superior handling skills, as his superior judgement and decision making skills help him to avoid the bad situation in the first place.

Flying Instruction allows an instructor to make the mistakes (at slow speeds) that allows an instructor to develop the judgement to stop it happening again when it may be for real..in something faster and heavier. I acknowledge that FIs may pick up some bad habits and (lets be honest) arrogance...but an apprenticeship as an FI has worked for the last 80 years of aviation. Why the sudden change?

[tripin]

the point in question seems to have been misunderstood, the work on this reims rocket is comercial work, it is run alongside an airline with the progresion oppertunities that offers. the flying is hands on there is no autopilot fitted. he is not doing as little hands on flying as an instructor, and the hours are no less benificial than instructional hours , possibly better, but he is still £5000 better off and is paid a reasonable wage. i am a QFI and instructed for 51/2 years before moving on to comercial flying to those arguing the point i sugest he will have a comercial position well before that long to which end as a career position he is correct it is a better way but i personaly wouldnt have missed my instructing

[duncanindevon]

Mystery Shopper, Crowwind Limits, fireflybob et al.

Don't blame you for your comments based on the magazine quote, but unfortunately the quote was NOT what the guy in question said to the writer at all. I know him well, and I'm afraid that the quote does him, and QFIs generally, a disservice. He is a consummate professional, and simply said that for him, personally, and at this stage in his career, he didn't want to instruct, spending money he didn't have at the time.

A deliberate misquote and a bit of sensationalist journalism, it would seem. Please don't think that the article represents his views accurately - it doesn't.

Duncan.

[Pat Malone]

I'm the author of the article and the publisher of the magazine, and I heard about this thread only last night. I think a few things need to be put into perspective here.
Firstly, this story was a brief sidebar to a 2,000-word profile of the flying club in question. I wrote it because I was intrigued to discover that a pilot in this chap's position should have no interest in getting an instructor rating. We had quite a long chat, which I had to precis into two paragraphs of quotes.
There was no arrogance in this young man, and he is certainly not a "plonker". He had thought long and hard about what he was doing and had concluded that it wasn't in his interests to spend £5,000 on the instructor rating when he believed the hours he was doing were every bit as valuable, or more so, in the eyes of prospective employers. The fact that he flew an aircraft with a wobbly prop was not an excuse for chest-beating on his part, simply a statement of fact - the aircraft does count as a complex single.
It's difficult to convey demeanour in a brief sidebar, but when you take out the umms and aahs, and the diffidence and attempts at justification, you get the nub of the matter, which can be summed up in the headline 'Whither the flying instructor?' As a flying instructor myself I'm interested in what the future holds for the breed. This chap's final quote was: "The old hours-building route has been killed off by the JARs, and I really wonder where the flying instructors are going to come from in the future. Certainly, there is little incentive for young people like me to pay for the rating."
He is a modest and thoughtful pilot who has been subjected to some personal abuse for thinking these things out loud, which is unfair. If I have contributed to your misconceptions about him, then I apologise. (It was certainly not a misquote, deliberate or otherwise, or "sensational journalism.")

[Teddy Robinson]

.... spent many years instructing, I enjoyed it thoroughly, and agree about the benefits so far as captaincy, situational awareness and CRM are concerned.

And some years later, one finds onself in the left seat of a shiney jet, on a wild winters night, a new colleague sat in the right, with 200 hours total time plus line training under his/her belt.

I appreciate those years instructing for what they really were .. an education !

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

So, how do turboprop and air taxi outfits feel about instructors? Single pilot IFR under JAR requires 700hrs so it's not something that a 200hr FATPL is able to do. The 500+ extra hours have to come from somewhere. As for the turboprops, they seem to like to hire around the 1000hr mark; so that they can replace captains leaving for jet jobs with fairly experienced FO's upgrading. Again, where would the additional 800hrs or so after FATPL come from, if not instruction?

I've always seen the route to large jets as a series of stepping stones, upgrading to larger aircraft after the hours build up. Maybe jet operators don't care about instruction time but I find it hard to believe that most turboprop and air taxi outfits are as cold.

[A and C]

You are all directing your wrath in the wrong direction the real enemy of the instructor is the likes of the big flying schools.

It is they that have convinced the airlines that the only way to recrute new pilots is via the integrated course , this is compleat rubbish but it gets the money into the schools pockets.

It is high time that the airline industry awoke to the fact that the last thing a company wants or needs is a bunch of Oxford or Cabair clones with little or no experiance of aviation outside the learning system, it's bad for the atmosphere inside a company it's bad for flight safety and in the end it will be bad for the business as a whole.

I am starting to become very disenchanted with the things that I see it airline recrutment at the moment and think that I will have to play my part in changing it from the inside.

As for the young man who sees no point in instructing , he has his finger on the pulse of the airline industry........... but I do hope that I don't have to sit next to him on a night Tenarife I would probably want to kill myself (or him) after that !.

[African Drunk]

I have to agree this is partly the fault of the big schools and this could be coming home to roost as Oxford have trouble recuiting instructors.

On a more positive note I started instructing 3 1/2 years ago and now have 2800 tt 1500 multi piston and 200 multi turbine soon to be an IRE/TRI. This all started through instruction, with some additional investment and a couple of gambles changing jobs.

I did start earning £15 a day commuting for 2 hours but I now earn more than most regional turbo prop captains. I believe that there are many benefits to instructing both for airmanship and the fact it is good fun and if you keep working at it and move into the more advanced training this will lead onto airline/corporate.

For instructors with experience start sending CV's to the IR schools as many are looking for CPL/IR and multi instructors.