jobs go at OATS

[Right rudder]

just heard from a mate studying at OATS that as many as severn flight instructors were laid off last friday with only a few hours notice.is this a sign of the current troubles deepening still further.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well something along those lines. Part timers have been the first to feel the pinch.

It all looks rather depressing for those unemployed low time guys considering an FI rating as a way of eating and retaining currency.

WWW

[greengage22]

I don't think so, because they are chock-a-block with Algerians, modular, and self-sponsored. Every classroom is in full use all the time.

No, it's more likely to be because they now have their own USA airfield in Texas. Instead of sending out students to sub-contract at a high-ish cost, they send them to Oxford Tyler. This means they now need fewer VFR instructors in UK. No IFR instructors were made redundant, I note.

It's a tough time for an AFI without an instrument instruction qualification at the present time, but you can't fault OAT's logic.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Not good.

Hhmmm lets see, what we have here is a bunch of UK licensed pilots losing their jobs at a UK aviation operator, because it's cheaper for their employer to use foreign labour to fly their paying UK customers around the skies.

Actually I've heard of that before, I believe in the airlines they call that 'flagging out' <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Can BALPA or the IPA not do anything to help out these instructors?

[Tosh McCaber]

Don't OATS use only UK Instructors out there?

[MagCheck]

Put it this way Oxford are not as full as they would want/need to be.

Information has it that as things stand Oxfords current and main contract is with the Algerian Airline & Air Force, however Modular and Self Sponsored are lacking. It seemed that Oxford were unable to fill the Feb Modular course and as of a few days ago were looking at trying to increase the Self Sponsored Student Courses from one every three months to something a bit more regular and profitable. Hopefully the owner company BBA is going to support them through this difficult time!?

Sympathies to the pilots they let go! As far as I am aware OATS do use UK pilots at Tyler for training, as it no doubtably helps in trying to maintain standards. A problem which raised its head when I was there!

[RVR800]

As existing cohorts progress the IF guys will probably feel the pinch ultimately as well - its. .all predictable.

Lets hope the downturn is short.

I personally reckon this downturn will be short-lived

There is no shortage of money in the economy. .and UK holiday bookings are up substantially. .according to many reports.

Some operators may have overcooked their downsizing.

[mattince]

Well I had to scramble to get onto the next OAT course commencing in April!! Every day I phoned up there was another place on the full-time integrated course that had been taken. I was very worried I wouldn't secure one of the 18 places and I consider that I was lucky to get in in time!

There was no mention of a February course being dropped because of a lack of business. I am surprised that their courses aren't more frequent as it seemed that my course has been filled with no problems.

Personally, I am looking forward to being on a course with a majority students that are self-sponsored and in a flying school that's not as busy as usual! My individual needs may be better taken care of?

[Captain Moth]

Its a pity that such a company as OATS may make a similiar mistake as SFT in regards as getting rid of the skilled people generating the money such as sim and flight instructors to keep employed non skilled workers such as many office staff with great titles who live off the skills of others. Oxford also carries a lot of people with great titles who contribute next to nothing and that is why the prices are so high, I've heard the accountants are chasing students for money up front whilst students are asking for aircraft and instructors and taking months to complete a course it takes 10yrs to get a good reputation and 10mins to destroy it.

[greengage22]

Captain Moth, there appears to be something wrong with your logic.

Why are they so bloody full (which I can confirm, along with mattince)if they've destroyed their reputation?

It is not true that they got rid of the core skills first. They laid off 18 support, management, and secretarial staff BEFORE cutting the flying instructors. This was quite well commented on on this site about 2 months ago. NO simulator instructors have been laid off. The logic of getting rid of the VFR instructors when you no longer need them is irrefutable. Who knows, it might even result in lower costs to the student - or at least a delay in passing on ever-rising costs to the students.

I see no evidence that Oxford are damaging their reputation. No-one with actual knowledge of the place has suggested that the quality of instruction has been affected by this move. You only have to read posts on this site for a while to realise that everyone who has actually BEEN there (as opposed to passing on second-hand gossip)rates the quality of the instruction very highly. Such complaints as there have been have been about the management. And now that there appears to be a new sharp management that seems to be taking executive action to sharpen things up, people criticise on this site.

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: greengage22 ]</p>

[FormationFlyer]

I must agree with greengage.

I went through OATS modular 2 yrs ago. The instruction *is* incredible - the instructors are *extremely* good.

The managment then sucked big time - we had to issue a formal letter of complaint to the then MD Mick Daws to get any action...Im glad to see things are improving since then.

[Captain Moth]

Well I its 2002 now not 2000 and it sounds to me more like 1945 the Berlin bunker. when they get rid of ex BA 747 Capts and keeps on magnet movers because its easier short term. I think its everyone for themselves I'm concerned my nephew has money up front and no trust fund . The problem is companies such as BBA are out for a quick buck and not interested in aviation at all.

[MagCheck]

Capt Moth - I personally think that with things the way they are today you have a valid concern.

Lets just look at the worst case scenario. Say in 3-6 months time BBA turn up and say to the new CEO (who is the only new part of the managerial staff at Oxford)OK you've had your chance but the profits or reduction in losses(which ever is valid) is not happening, so we're closing the school down! Where does that leave the current students/customers who have coughed up, in advance almost £50-55K?

As some one mentioned earlier, how do Oxford feel that they have the right to ask for money in advance when students are having to struggle to get a twin. Could this be why OATS first IR pass rate is low?

greengage - no one is questioning the standards of the instructors, as I well know, when I was there the ground school instructors and a majority of the flying instructors were great! However if I was starting my training now I would have to ask myself what is the likelyhood of OATS surviving the storm?

I agree with you the new CEO, who was the MD when I was there, is very good and seems to be very customer orientated, but is he too late??

As for sim instructors, I know, from being told by my old instructors that some Sim guys have gone. They left in the first batch of cuts. I agree with whoever said it earlier, people should be being cut from the top as this seems to be were most of the problems stem from!

[Malcolm G O Payne]

Just to put the record straight regarding simulator redundancies, I was one of the four made redundant with the first wave of those to go. However, within three weeks we had all been invited to return on a casual basis, along with some other sim instructors who had been made redundant from Gloucester ahen that division was closed down.

[oxford blue]

The name says it all - ok, I'm an Oxford instructor - I won't lie to you. But I've never seen so many half-truths and innuendos contained in a thread. I hope most of the readers of this site have got enough common sense to tell the wheat from the chaff.

Captain Moth - are you a wind-up? Let's analyse some of the things you just said:

"Well, its 2002 now, not 2000" - in response to Formation Flyer saying he was there 2 years ago. The instruction hasn't got worse in the last 2 years - if anything, it's got better. Don't take my word for it - as greengage says, take the word of those who have BEEN there, not just passed on half-baked gossip. Try <a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=012250" target="_blank">this link</a> for the truth.

"the Berlin Bunker of 1945" - so, if Oxford do nothing = crap management (on this site). If they do something = "Bunker mentality"(on this site). You just can't win.

"when they get rid of ex 747 captains" - is this a joke? They got rid of AFIs who couldn't do IFR instruction.

"and keeps on magnet movers" - greengage made it clear that 18 management, admin and support staff went 2 months ago, well before (a few) flying instructors went. I agree, it's still tough on those pilots ( and the others, for that matter) who lost their jobs - but with the new Texas facility, the truth is - those pilots were just surplus to requirements. If they'd been kept on, it would have had to be passed on in increased fees to students - and you wouldn't want that - would you?

Now let's look at Magcheck:

"Where does that leave the current students/customers who have coughed up, in advance almost £50-55K?"

Actually, nobody has to cough up the full fees in advance. Oxford has a phased payment system. You pay a quarter of your fees in advance, as you pass through each quarter of the course. The most you could lose, if the company went bankrupt overnight without warning, is about £12,000. OK, not peanuts, but not fifty thousand quid either. And are you telling me that if such a reputable company as Oxford had the skids under it, the word wouldn't be out on the streets?

As for your point on the first-time IR pass-rate - to quote greengage again: The national average includes ex-military and also experienced pilots with established foreign licences who simply need a conversion and those who are experienced, but have let their licences lapse.

There is a heck of a difference between an ex-Tornado pilot with 2000 hours doing a civil rating at another college and an ab initio with 150 hours on Warriors and Senecas doing it at Oxford.

Oxford only deal with ab initios. You're not comparing like with like.. . . .I don't need to answer your poInt on the sim instructors. Malcolm Payne has done it better than I could - and he's personally affected!!!!

[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</p>

[MagCheck]

Oxford Blue - Thanks for that update. The questions that I have ref the stability of OATS and the future is:

I have very recently been told by current instructors and staff at OATS that only recently did the new CEO hold a meeting in which he plainly pointed out to people, such as your self, (Please excuse the wording but the jist is here) that the situation at Oxford was far from good. That he himself had been given a time frame by BBA and that further cuts were/are likely. As well as this he bought up his views on current contracts, which I will not mention as it's not the place to do so.

I also do not think that this is the place to start spreading rumours about the colapse of a training provider without being completely sure, with all the facts and as far as I can see there are probably only 1 or 2 people at OATS who are fully aware of what the future of OATS is. However be under no illusion that the rumours (That you may want to squash with facts) are that OATS are on slightly shaky ground. You do have to agree though that with the current avaiton industry the way it is, cutting costs where ever possible, training providers will be one of the first to suffer!

As for the IR pass rate. Of course you can play with numbers all you want however the fact is that OATS had a recent review in which it was found that, compared to the national average, OATS was below average. I know that compared with BAE in Spain, OATS are not doing great.

My point was, as the context of the msg stated, that COULD this low IR 1st Pass Rate be, at least partly due to the fact that OATS have 15 or so twins (I think it actually more) and in recent times less than a third of these have been on the flight line ready to fly?

However to conteract the way this msg is going I would like to say that you will notice that I had and still do agree that ground instruction and most of the flying instructors are very good at Oxford. Yet what would interest me is what your view would be on cuts being made from some people at the top at OATS?

[oxford blue]

To answer your last point - it's already started happening. Not by mass sackings, but by natural wastage. Some have left - to go to other jobs, and not been replaced. Others have been redeployed. Let's not quote individual appointments, because these are people's jobs and livelihoods that we're discussing and you wouldn't like to have people talking about you like that. But it's starting to happen.

[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</p>

[PFD]

Hello Everyone

I also am an Instructor (Ground) at Oxford. Yes we did have a company briefing from the new MD. Yes times are tough. Yes the previous MD may have made some mis-informed decisions, however, I have confidence in the new MD as, although he has to turn a profit, he is a holder of an ATPL licence and is current in the industry. After all this is a business not a flying club.

There is room for improvement at all levels, but I for one firmly believe that the present downturn in the industry is short term, that it was inevitable even without Sept 11, and I will as always do my best to ensure that the students I teach learn what they need to know to pass JAA exams.

I cannot answer for anyone else, and will not expand my opinion further. If you want to do ATPL, get the facts from the various schools, ask around the real Pilot world, find out what students think at the various establishments and then make an informed decision. DO NOT base your decision on one bid of criticism or praise in any one forum.

Good luck to all present and future students.

[Metsys]

Hi Guys,

Don't rate Oxford as going down the slopes to oblivion! They phoned me to ask if I would be interested in a job as a Met Instructor with the ground school.

They are more likely to be re-structuring the training needs at Oxford, in the light of student numbers and training bases in UK and USA.

John Standen

Met Instructor ex SECOAT & PPSC

[Captain Moth]

There's never been a question of the theory being excellent at Oxford and so is the sim training and always will be but unfortunately some of the attitudes in other areas have shades of 1925 not even 1945 a wealth of experience is great but is no good if you can remember what you did 30yrs ago but not what happened yesterday,take a look in their crew room , if they move with the times they will survive.

[boeingbus2002]

I didnt realise there were any VFR instructors left at Oxford. I thought they retrained all of them to do the IFR phase. (or are the job cuts referring to the modular instructors?)

[QUERY]

It doesn't matter how good 'they' are or were because insufficient revenue = unlikely to survive, even with mugs like mattince.. .Does OATS, like SFT, now = history?. .P.S. where is 'Oxford Tyler'?

[boeingbus2002]

Tyler is Oxfords VFR Fair Weather base in Dallas, Texas. They do all the way upto CPL Skills test there.

[EddyCurrents]

Oxford Blue and Magcheck.

Just to set the record straight(er).

1. OATS declined to re-employ an ex BA 747 Capt, allegedly because he had been an effective union rep for the instructors,

2. The 'new' MD. He is not a new hand at all. Three years ago he was selected to run the flying school by Mick Daw, the previous CEO. I believe his previous experience was running a bar in the caribean, but that may just be crew room gossip. When he was last at Oxford, when asked by TLT what his greatest achievement there was, he replied "sacking Andy ****". At the time 'Tony had been nicknamed ILS by groundschool, a name that aquired commen currency with the flying instructors. (ILS doesn't stand for a landing aid).

3. All the flying instructors have been offered a new pay package, on a take it or leave it basis.

4. On news of his return, staff morale slumped to its present position.

5. The instructors are still good.

[scroggs]

The relevance (if not the interest) of this thread to Wannabes is getting weaker with each post. As it appears to revolve entirely around issues regarding instructors, that is the forum on which I shall place it. Feel free to continue your debate there.

[oxford blue]

Well, I work there and my way of viewing it doesn't tally with yours. To take your 5 points in order:

1/ This instructor was before my time but, the way I hear it, all he did was to cause the management hassle by his aggressive confrontation as a union rep. Not only did he have no tact, he was bloody rude. His approach actually achieved damn-all in terms of improvements in terms and conditions for the instructors.

2/ No-one ever said Anthony was new to Oxford - just new in the post as MD. His previous experience includes being Director of Training at Oxford and being a line pilot for bmi. He's had other jobs as well - it's amazing what a difference it makes to the story when you're highly selective in what you tell.

3/ Absolutely right. The place needed sharpening up.

4/ Not true.

5/ True.

And, no, I'm not management - I'm a rank-and-file instructor.

It's up to the readership of this thread to decide which version they prefer.

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</p>

[EddyCurrents]

Oxford.

I notice that you now aknowledge about the ex BA 747 Capt. In your earlier contribution you denied it! How about your comment about not lying to us? Consistency please.

I agree with you, the terms and conditions of instructing at Oxford have gone downhill ever since the demise of CAP509. It also now makes a loss. Most of the instructors are the same, so the quality of the product has largely remained at the top.

I never heard anyone say that T was rude. To me, and those who know him he is a courteous and effective gentleman. I fear your source of information is not without partiality.

Anyones ability to cope with individuals, who are willing to sacrifice anything to the profit factor, is always going to be limited. I understood that TP was a very effective PFIA chairman who achieved a lot, but they made him CFI. Things have changed with the recent (97+)management,l ast week for example, was it really appropriate for an instructor to be bolloked for declining to fly an early student in 28kt gusts?

Should instructors be expected to work 16+ hour days?

I guess this is what you mean by "sharpening up".

I noticed during the recent gales, that none of the instructors went home early. Early departures in bad weather (as encouraged by Jeremy)has always been Oxford policy, with the corrolary that you work longer hours sometimes to make up for it. It is very sad that the decline in management has created a regime of fear amongst the staff.

Redunduncies are inevitable, but you could at least be human about it. In a recent chat with a dept head at BA, it was obvious that he was genuinly upset at the prospect of making some of his staff redundent. Being nicer (firmness has it's place, of course) to staff has ALWAYS produced better results than petty bullying. Its part of leadership, as taught all over the world, but not as practiced at Oxford. Sadly, with the loss of Bruce, Vic and the rest, Oxford is left mostly with managers, not leaders. Maybe thats why its going downhill fast.

Keep digging the tunnel guys. Someday your airline will come.

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: EddyCurrents ]</p>

[oxford blue]

I wasn't going to bother to continue with this thread because, as Scroggs said, this debate is becoming increasingly sterile with each additional contribution. But you have attacked my integrity, so I will. Your technique is called playing the man, not the ball.

We were talking in the context of the present round of extremely unfortunate redundancies - ie, some AFIs have been made redundant recently. Captain Moth then made some fatuous remark about "getting rids of ex-747 captains and keeping on magnet movers". I was replying to that point. No 747 captains have been made redundant. It is true that a former 747 captain did not have his contract renewed (which is not at all the same thing) THREE YEARS ago. It is not surprising that I failed to see that link. This is supposed to be a rumours and news website, not one concerned with dragging up ancient history. There is no way that I intended to deceive or be inconsistent.

It tends to suggest to me that you and Captain Moth must have a fairly weak argument if you need to refer to events of 3 years ago to make your points.

Apart from that, I am not going to get dragged into the weeds of a very boring argument. I have some more general points to make.

Here is a little story. An RAF Staion Commander was carrying out interviews with new arrivals one morning. The first chap came in. "What was your previous station like?" the CO asked.

"Terrible!" said the new arrival. "No one pulled together, there was a lot of back-biting, and I found it a bit unfriendly."

"Well, I'm sorry to hear that" said the CO. "I'm afraid you'll find it's a bit like that here, too."

The next chap came in. He looked an enthusiastic sort of guy, and had a spring in his step. "How was your last station?" asked the CO in the course of the interview.

"Great!" said the new arrival. "Good morale. Good friends. Everybody pulled together. We were a team. We got things done."

"Good" said the CO. "It's just like that here."

. .See the point? Life is what you make it. There will always be people who whinge about management in any organisation and there wil always be people who get on with it and do the job. It's not surprising that when management have choices to make about who goes and who stays they chose to keep on the ones who give best value to the company. I would, too, in their position.

You appear to have a lot on inside knowledge about Oxford. My guess in that you either work there or are a disgruntled former employee. If the first, it is an act of gross disloyalty to slag off your employer on a public website. if the second, can't you get rid of your emotional baggage? It's all over. It's a job you used to have once. Get on with what you're doing now and make a succes of it.

Most of the instructors at Oxford have been there for years. They like it there. Staff turnover is low. Again, I wonder why?

A final point. Look at Oxford's client list. In the last 2 years, ie, post introduction of JAA, the following organisations have sponsored cadets through Oxford:

BA. .The Royal Air force (incredible - but true!). .bmi. .Aer Lingus. .SAS. .Finnair. .Greenland Air. .Ghana Air. .Khalifa Airways. .Air Algerie. .Algerian Air Force. .Kuwait Police. .Bahrain Defence force. .Greek Police. .Algerian Police. .Oman Royal Flight

There may be others, but this is all I can think of.

Oxford must be doing SOMETHING right!

Again, I leave it to the readers of this site to make their own minds up. I do not intend to contribute further to this thread.

[FormationFlyer]

Um folks...correct me please...

Please tell me that it is not Anthony Petteford who is the new CEO of Oxford (I think that was his name...).

If it is I believe Oxford's future would be in grave doubt - Myself & other students of 2 years ago had tanglings with this 'oik' who has little respect for peoples money and quality of service (not talking about instructors here - which were always 110% top notch - Esp Mark Bills & Vince Robertson - a pity to see Vince leave Oxford I think but there you go). What I am talking about is his bad mishandling of customer (us) relations regarding availability and more importantly serviceability of aircraft...

Please please please tell me it is not him...

[EddyCurrents]

Very sorry to confirm it is 'tony Petteford. It seems my views are not unique. Vince leaving is a disaster for the place. "He really knew where his towell was".

The object of recent management/owners at Oxford has been to artificially inflate the value of the company and then to sell it off at a profit. It has never been to keep it running long term. Nothing wrong with this of course, the owners are gambling their money and expect a return. Having bought the place at an inflated and unreal price, the only way they can get a return is to sell it at greater value to someone else. Like the South Sea Bubble however, it cannot go on forever. Marketing on "the Oxford name" and a coat of paint, as Mick Daw initiated in 98/99, can only go so far. In a shrinking market, costs have to be cut, so jobs and pay will go down. Again nothing wrong with this, its the market economy.

The sad part is when people put forward the management view that all is rosy in the garden. Just as elsewhere in any industry, the protestations increase proprtionately to the trouble the company is in. Oxford is not going down the tubes just yet, and hopefully it won't. It does have major problems such as staff/student morale, a situation exacerbated by the CEO's return. On the other hand, the airspace will become less crowded, aircraft availability might go up (but you can buy Oxford aircraft now), and flight safety will increase. The quality of the instructors will remain as high as ever because they have nowhere else to go, or are tied to houses/children in school etc. Most of the instructors (post CAP509)I know are still applying for jobs, and have been ever since they arrived. At the moment everyone in the crew room is watching his/her back. A less Stalinist style of management would alleviate this. Openness and honesty always wins - its a function of leadership. Trying to tell the staff that the latest pay scheme is an "improvement" and is intended to increase their total pay by improving productivity doesn't wash.

Flying at CSE has always been fun, its the bit on the ground that tarnishs the reputation.

[hamish_mcnasty]

ways to get rid of magnets (for OATS Instructors.). .. .1. Hit them repeatedly with a hammer. (recommended). .. .2. Put a high voltage A.C. current through them.. .. .3. Heat them up in a furnace.. .. .Instructors will know what I am talking about! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[EddyCurrents]

Sad to see that all OATs instructors have been given their notice. Half are slated for the chop, but no one knows who.

[rolling circle]

Here's a question for OATS - Why was it that when I phoned the CAA yesterday, they knew nothing about your, much trumpeted, approval for modular CPL training in the States? Could it be that you are being 'economical with the truth'? Surely not!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Have they really ALL been given their Notice!?!?. .. .Surely not!. .. .WWW

[porridge]

WWW - yes more or less everyone has been told their job is at risk, effectively the same thing.. .Comment on customer care and focus - if a company wants to succeed in that arena they should first look to how they treat their staff who are supposed to carry out this objective. Threats of imminent redundancy are hardly the the positive scenario one needs to engender to carry this objective!. .Or am I missing somthing? In the typical 'In Search of Excellence' profile it is those companies who have a very highly developed 'employee recognition for excellence and client focus' who are the market leaders!

[FormationFlyer]

Titch:. .. .[rant mode on]. .. .I paid 25000 UKP to OATS for a multi-IR. As one of 14 people trying to fly 3 twin a/c, 2 of which had their CAA approval withdrawn, one of which became out of service due to needing a new engine (which oxford had but then sold on - so when needed wasnt available), and 1 of the remaining two had an on/off throttle (due badly worn cable). etc etc. I dont care whether you flew with the guy and 'he is a jolly good chap'. As a CUSTOMER he had an appauling attitude - particularly his attitude to our 'nice' letter of complaint (signed by I think 14-21 students at the time - so lets face it this is NOT a small issue Im talking about here - but students worth revenue of 0.5million UKP to OATS - but it would appear that didnt matter to him). So unless you had 25000UKP riding on him I suggest you stop telling everyone what a good cheese he is - Because he didnt give a crap about us modular students when we were there - either that or ha cant manage his way out of a paper bag - how else do you explain the RIDICULOUS serviceability and utilisation of aircraft...??? Hmm...very customer focused.. .. .I have nothing against the guy personally. Dont know him personally. But professionally AFAI am concerned he is a waste of space who seriously jepordised completing my IR in the timescales advertised by Oxford due to his inability to manage resources....and I was one of the lucky ones who completed on time...and that was more testament to the staff of GOATS in managing a bad situation than any reflection on the new god of oxford.. .. .[rant mode off]. .. .Sorry about that folks. Can I please take this oppurtunity to say that my thoughts are with the OATS instructors under fire. Chin up chaps(& chapesses). Hopefully it wont be as bad as feared.

[wun-p-choo]

The opposite of "flexibility" is in the thread "clocking in machines"
I think I prefer flexibility.

[essouira]

As there is now an advert for new OATS courses at the top of my screen, does this mean that the panic is over and all the instructors are keeping their jobs ?

[fibod]

Things could be better for our jobs:

- VFR flying all done in Texas. Yes, but it dosn't mean that there are jobs there for us. Most of the instructing is done by low hours FAA instructors. So much for the quality image. So much for UK jobs. When airlines do that it is called flagging out.

- New CFI in Texas - lost his job just as soon as he was in post. Replaced by a SFI to save money (and good luck to JJ)

- VR retires as CFI Modular - job downgraded to a SFI one to save money

- HofT leaves - replaced by a part-timer dragged from semi-retirement (a gent all the same)

- Rumours of more to go after this week's batch - will the last to leave please turn out the lights

:(