jobs go at OATS
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jobs go at OATS
just heard from a mate studying at OATS that as many as severn flight instructors were laid off last friday with only a few hours notice.is this a sign of the current troubles deepening still further.
Well something along those lines. Part timers have been the first to feel the pinch.
It all looks rather depressing for those unemployed low time guys considering an FI rating as a way of eating and retaining currency.
WWW
It all looks rather depressing for those unemployed low time guys considering an FI rating as a way of eating and retaining currency.
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I don't think so, because they are chock-a-block with Algerians, modular, and self-sponsored. Every classroom is in full use all the time.
No, it's more likely to be because they now have their own USA airfield in Texas. Instead of sending out students to sub-contract at a high-ish cost, they send them to Oxford Tyler. This means they now need fewer VFR instructors in UK. No IFR instructors were made redundant, I note.
It's a tough time for an AFI without an instrument instruction qualification at the present time, but you can't fault OAT's logic.
No, it's more likely to be because they now have their own USA airfield in Texas. Instead of sending out students to sub-contract at a high-ish cost, they send them to Oxford Tyler. This means they now need fewer VFR instructors in UK. No IFR instructors were made redundant, I note.
It's a tough time for an AFI without an instrument instruction qualification at the present time, but you can't fault OAT's logic.
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Not good.
Hhmmm lets see, what we have here is a bunch of UK licensed pilots losing their jobs at a UK aviation operator, because it's cheaper for their employer to use foreign labour to fly their paying UK customers around the skies.
Actually I've heard of that before, I believe in the airlines they call that 'flagging out' <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Can BALPA or the IPA not do anything to help out these instructors?
Hhmmm lets see, what we have here is a bunch of UK licensed pilots losing their jobs at a UK aviation operator, because it's cheaper for their employer to use foreign labour to fly their paying UK customers around the skies.
Actually I've heard of that before, I believe in the airlines they call that 'flagging out' <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Can BALPA or the IPA not do anything to help out these instructors?
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Put it this way Oxford are not as full as they would want/need to be.
Information has it that as things stand Oxfords current and main contract is with the Algerian Airline & Air Force, however Modular and Self Sponsored are lacking. It seemed that Oxford were unable to fill the Feb Modular course and as of a few days ago were looking at trying to increase the Self Sponsored Student Courses from one every three months to something a bit more regular and profitable. Hopefully the owner company BBA is going to support them through this difficult time!?
Sympathies to the pilots they let go! As far as I am aware OATS do use UK pilots at Tyler for training, as it no doubtably helps in trying to maintain standards. A problem which raised its head when I was there!
Information has it that as things stand Oxfords current and main contract is with the Algerian Airline & Air Force, however Modular and Self Sponsored are lacking. It seemed that Oxford were unable to fill the Feb Modular course and as of a few days ago were looking at trying to increase the Self Sponsored Student Courses from one every three months to something a bit more regular and profitable. Hopefully the owner company BBA is going to support them through this difficult time!?
Sympathies to the pilots they let go! As far as I am aware OATS do use UK pilots at Tyler for training, as it no doubtably helps in trying to maintain standards. A problem which raised its head when I was there!
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As existing cohorts progress the IF guys will probably feel the pinch ultimately as well - its. .all predictable.
Lets hope the downturn is short.
I personally reckon this downturn will be short-lived
There is no shortage of money in the economy. .and UK holiday bookings are up substantially. .according to many reports.
Some operators may have overcooked their downsizing.
Lets hope the downturn is short.
I personally reckon this downturn will be short-lived
There is no shortage of money in the economy. .and UK holiday bookings are up substantially. .according to many reports.
Some operators may have overcooked their downsizing.
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Well I had to scramble to get onto the next OAT course commencing in April!! Every day I phoned up there was another place on the full-time integrated course that had been taken. I was very worried I wouldn't secure one of the 18 places and I consider that I was lucky to get in in time!
There was no mention of a February course being dropped because of a lack of business. I am surprised that their courses aren't more frequent as it seemed that my course has been filled with no problems.
Personally, I am looking forward to being on a course with a majority students that are self-sponsored and in a flying school that's not as busy as usual! My individual needs may be better taken care of?
There was no mention of a February course being dropped because of a lack of business. I am surprised that their courses aren't more frequent as it seemed that my course has been filled with no problems.
Personally, I am looking forward to being on a course with a majority students that are self-sponsored and in a flying school that's not as busy as usual! My individual needs may be better taken care of?
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Its a pity that such a company as OATS may make a similiar mistake as SFT in regards as getting rid of the skilled people generating the money such as sim and flight instructors to keep employed non skilled workers such as many office staff with great titles who live off the skills of others. Oxford also carries a lot of people with great titles who contribute next to nothing and that is why the prices are so high, I've heard the accountants are chasing students for money up front whilst students are asking for aircraft and instructors and taking months to complete a course it takes 10yrs to get a good reputation and 10mins to destroy it.
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Captain Moth, there appears to be something wrong with your logic.
Why are they so bloody full (which I can confirm, along with mattince)if they've destroyed their reputation?
It is not true that they got rid of the core skills first. They laid off 18 support, management, and secretarial staff BEFORE cutting the flying instructors. This was quite well commented on on this site about 2 months ago. NO simulator instructors have been laid off. The logic of getting rid of the VFR instructors when you no longer need them is irrefutable. Who knows, it might even result in lower costs to the student - or at least a delay in passing on ever-rising costs to the students.
I see no evidence that Oxford are damaging their reputation. No-one with actual knowledge of the place has suggested that the quality of instruction has been affected by this move. You only have to read posts on this site for a while to realise that everyone who has actually BEEN there (as opposed to passing on second-hand gossip)rates the quality of the instruction very highly. Such complaints as there have been have been about the management. And now that there appears to be a new sharp management that seems to be taking executive action to sharpen things up, people criticise on this site.
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: greengage22 ]</p>
Why are they so bloody full (which I can confirm, along with mattince)if they've destroyed their reputation?
It is not true that they got rid of the core skills first. They laid off 18 support, management, and secretarial staff BEFORE cutting the flying instructors. This was quite well commented on on this site about 2 months ago. NO simulator instructors have been laid off. The logic of getting rid of the VFR instructors when you no longer need them is irrefutable. Who knows, it might even result in lower costs to the student - or at least a delay in passing on ever-rising costs to the students.
I see no evidence that Oxford are damaging their reputation. No-one with actual knowledge of the place has suggested that the quality of instruction has been affected by this move. You only have to read posts on this site for a while to realise that everyone who has actually BEEN there (as opposed to passing on second-hand gossip)rates the quality of the instruction very highly. Such complaints as there have been have been about the management. And now that there appears to be a new sharp management that seems to be taking executive action to sharpen things up, people criticise on this site.
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: greengage22 ]</p>
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I must agree with greengage.
I went through OATS modular 2 yrs ago. The instruction *is* incredible - the instructors are *extremely* good.
The managment then sucked big time - we had to issue a formal letter of complaint to the then MD Mick Daws to get any action...Im glad to see things are improving since then.
I went through OATS modular 2 yrs ago. The instruction *is* incredible - the instructors are *extremely* good.
The managment then sucked big time - we had to issue a formal letter of complaint to the then MD Mick Daws to get any action...Im glad to see things are improving since then.
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Well I its 2002 now not 2000 and it sounds to me more like 1945 the Berlin bunker. when they get rid of ex BA 747 Capts and keeps on magnet movers because its easier short term. I think its everyone for themselves I'm concerned my nephew has money up front and no trust fund . The problem is companies such as BBA are out for a quick buck and not interested in aviation at all.
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Capt Moth - I personally think that with things the way they are today you have a valid concern.
Lets just look at the worst case scenario. Say in 3-6 months time BBA turn up and say to the new CEO (who is the only new part of the managerial staff at Oxford)OK you've had your chance but the profits or reduction in losses(which ever is valid) is not happening, so we're closing the school down! Where does that leave the current students/customers who have coughed up, in advance almost £50-55K?
As some one mentioned earlier, how do Oxford feel that they have the right to ask for money in advance when students are having to struggle to get a twin. Could this be why OATS first IR pass rate is low?
greengage - no one is questioning the standards of the instructors, as I well know, when I was there the ground school instructors and a majority of the flying instructors were great! However if I was starting my training now I would have to ask myself what is the likelyhood of OATS surviving the storm?
I agree with you the new CEO, who was the MD when I was there, is very good and seems to be very customer orientated, but is he too late??
As for sim instructors, I know, from being told by my old instructors that some Sim guys have gone. They left in the first batch of cuts. I agree with whoever said it earlier, people should be being cut from the top as this seems to be were most of the problems stem from!
Lets just look at the worst case scenario. Say in 3-6 months time BBA turn up and say to the new CEO (who is the only new part of the managerial staff at Oxford)OK you've had your chance but the profits or reduction in losses(which ever is valid) is not happening, so we're closing the school down! Where does that leave the current students/customers who have coughed up, in advance almost £50-55K?
As some one mentioned earlier, how do Oxford feel that they have the right to ask for money in advance when students are having to struggle to get a twin. Could this be why OATS first IR pass rate is low?
greengage - no one is questioning the standards of the instructors, as I well know, when I was there the ground school instructors and a majority of the flying instructors were great! However if I was starting my training now I would have to ask myself what is the likelyhood of OATS surviving the storm?
I agree with you the new CEO, who was the MD when I was there, is very good and seems to be very customer orientated, but is he too late??
As for sim instructors, I know, from being told by my old instructors that some Sim guys have gone. They left in the first batch of cuts. I agree with whoever said it earlier, people should be being cut from the top as this seems to be were most of the problems stem from!
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Just to put the record straight regarding simulator redundancies, I was one of the four made redundant with the first wave of those to go. However, within three weeks we had all been invited to return on a casual basis, along with some other sim instructors who had been made redundant from Gloucester ahen that division was closed down.
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The name says it all - ok, I'm an Oxford instructor - I won't lie to you. But I've never seen so many half-truths and innuendos contained in a thread. I hope most of the readers of this site have got enough common sense to tell the wheat from the chaff.
Captain Moth - are you a wind-up? Let's analyse some of the things you just said:
"Well, its 2002 now, not 2000" - in response to Formation Flyer saying he was there 2 years ago. The instruction hasn't got worse in the last 2 years - if anything, it's got better. Don't take my word for it - as greengage says, take the word of those who have BEEN there, not just passed on half-baked gossip. Try <a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=012250" target="_blank">this link</a> for the truth.
"the Berlin Bunker of 1945" - so, if Oxford do nothing = crap management (on this site). If they do something = "Bunker mentality"(on this site). You just can't win.
"when they get rid of ex 747 captains" - is this a joke? They got rid of AFIs who couldn't do IFR instruction.
"and keeps on magnet movers" - greengage made it clear that 18 management, admin and support staff went 2 months ago, well before (a few) flying instructors went. I agree, it's still tough on those pilots ( and the others, for that matter) who lost their jobs - but with the new Texas facility, the truth is - those pilots were just surplus to requirements. If they'd been kept on, it would have had to be passed on in increased fees to students - and you wouldn't want that - would you?
Now let's look at Magcheck:
"Where does that leave the current students/customers who have coughed up, in advance almost £50-55K?"
Actually, nobody has to cough up the full fees in advance. Oxford has a phased payment system. You pay a quarter of your fees in advance, as you pass through each quarter of the course. The most you could lose, if the company went bankrupt overnight without warning, is about £12,000. OK, not peanuts, but not fifty thousand quid either. And are you telling me that if such a reputable company as Oxford had the skids under it, the word wouldn't be out on the streets?
As for your point on the first-time IR pass-rate - to quote greengage again: The national average includes ex-military and also experienced pilots with established foreign licences who simply need a conversion and those who are experienced, but have let their licences lapse.
There is a heck of a difference between an ex-Tornado pilot with 2000 hours doing a civil rating at another college and an ab initio with 150 hours on Warriors and Senecas doing it at Oxford.
Oxford only deal with ab initios. You're not comparing like with like.. . . .I don't need to answer your poInt on the sim instructors. Malcolm Payne has done it better than I could - and he's personally affected!!!!
[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</p>
Captain Moth - are you a wind-up? Let's analyse some of the things you just said:
"Well, its 2002 now, not 2000" - in response to Formation Flyer saying he was there 2 years ago. The instruction hasn't got worse in the last 2 years - if anything, it's got better. Don't take my word for it - as greengage says, take the word of those who have BEEN there, not just passed on half-baked gossip. Try <a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=012250" target="_blank">this link</a> for the truth.
"the Berlin Bunker of 1945" - so, if Oxford do nothing = crap management (on this site). If they do something = "Bunker mentality"(on this site). You just can't win.
"when they get rid of ex 747 captains" - is this a joke? They got rid of AFIs who couldn't do IFR instruction.
"and keeps on magnet movers" - greengage made it clear that 18 management, admin and support staff went 2 months ago, well before (a few) flying instructors went. I agree, it's still tough on those pilots ( and the others, for that matter) who lost their jobs - but with the new Texas facility, the truth is - those pilots were just surplus to requirements. If they'd been kept on, it would have had to be passed on in increased fees to students - and you wouldn't want that - would you?
Now let's look at Magcheck:
"Where does that leave the current students/customers who have coughed up, in advance almost £50-55K?"
Actually, nobody has to cough up the full fees in advance. Oxford has a phased payment system. You pay a quarter of your fees in advance, as you pass through each quarter of the course. The most you could lose, if the company went bankrupt overnight without warning, is about £12,000. OK, not peanuts, but not fifty thousand quid either. And are you telling me that if such a reputable company as Oxford had the skids under it, the word wouldn't be out on the streets?
As for your point on the first-time IR pass-rate - to quote greengage again: The national average includes ex-military and also experienced pilots with established foreign licences who simply need a conversion and those who are experienced, but have let their licences lapse.
There is a heck of a difference between an ex-Tornado pilot with 2000 hours doing a civil rating at another college and an ab initio with 150 hours on Warriors and Senecas doing it at Oxford.
Oxford only deal with ab initios. You're not comparing like with like.. . . .I don't need to answer your poInt on the sim instructors. Malcolm Payne has done it better than I could - and he's personally affected!!!!
[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</p>
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Oxford Blue - Thanks for that update. The questions that I have ref the stability of OATS and the future is:
I have very recently been told by current instructors and staff at OATS that only recently did the new CEO hold a meeting in which he plainly pointed out to people, such as your self, (Please excuse the wording but the jist is here) that the situation at Oxford was far from good. That he himself had been given a time frame by BBA and that further cuts were/are likely. As well as this he bought up his views on current contracts, which I will not mention as it's not the place to do so.
I also do not think that this is the place to start spreading rumours about the colapse of a training provider without being completely sure, with all the facts and as far as I can see there are probably only 1 or 2 people at OATS who are fully aware of what the future of OATS is. However be under no illusion that the rumours (That you may want to squash with facts) are that OATS are on slightly shaky ground. You do have to agree though that with the current avaiton industry the way it is, cutting costs where ever possible, training providers will be one of the first to suffer!
As for the IR pass rate. Of course you can play with numbers all you want however the fact is that OATS had a recent review in which it was found that, compared to the national average, OATS was below average. I know that compared with BAE in Spain, OATS are not doing great.
My point was, as the context of the msg stated, that COULD this low IR 1st Pass Rate be, at least partly due to the fact that OATS have 15 or so twins (I think it actually more) and in recent times less than a third of these have been on the flight line ready to fly?
However to conteract the way this msg is going I would like to say that you will notice that I had and still do agree that ground instruction and most of the flying instructors are very good at Oxford. Yet what would interest me is what your view would be on cuts being made from some people at the top at OATS?
I have very recently been told by current instructors and staff at OATS that only recently did the new CEO hold a meeting in which he plainly pointed out to people, such as your self, (Please excuse the wording but the jist is here) that the situation at Oxford was far from good. That he himself had been given a time frame by BBA and that further cuts were/are likely. As well as this he bought up his views on current contracts, which I will not mention as it's not the place to do so.
I also do not think that this is the place to start spreading rumours about the colapse of a training provider without being completely sure, with all the facts and as far as I can see there are probably only 1 or 2 people at OATS who are fully aware of what the future of OATS is. However be under no illusion that the rumours (That you may want to squash with facts) are that OATS are on slightly shaky ground. You do have to agree though that with the current avaiton industry the way it is, cutting costs where ever possible, training providers will be one of the first to suffer!
As for the IR pass rate. Of course you can play with numbers all you want however the fact is that OATS had a recent review in which it was found that, compared to the national average, OATS was below average. I know that compared with BAE in Spain, OATS are not doing great.
My point was, as the context of the msg stated, that COULD this low IR 1st Pass Rate be, at least partly due to the fact that OATS have 15 or so twins (I think it actually more) and in recent times less than a third of these have been on the flight line ready to fly?
However to conteract the way this msg is going I would like to say that you will notice that I had and still do agree that ground instruction and most of the flying instructors are very good at Oxford. Yet what would interest me is what your view would be on cuts being made from some people at the top at OATS?
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To answer your last point - it's already started happening. Not by mass sackings, but by natural wastage. Some have left - to go to other jobs, and not been replaced. Others have been redeployed. Let's not quote individual appointments, because these are people's jobs and livelihoods that we're discussing and you wouldn't like to have people talking about you like that. But it's starting to happen.
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</p>
[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</p>
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Hello Everyone
I also am an Instructor (Ground) at Oxford. Yes we did have a company briefing from the new MD. Yes times are tough. Yes the previous MD may have made some mis-informed decisions, however, I have confidence in the new MD as, although he has to turn a profit, he is a holder of an ATPL licence and is current in the industry. After all this is a business not a flying club.
There is room for improvement at all levels, but I for one firmly believe that the present downturn in the industry is short term, that it was inevitable even without Sept 11, and I will as always do my best to ensure that the students I teach learn what they need to know to pass JAA exams.
I cannot answer for anyone else, and will not expand my opinion further. If you want to do ATPL, get the facts from the various schools, ask around the real Pilot world, find out what students think at the various establishments and then make an informed decision. DO NOT base your decision on one bid of criticism or praise in any one forum.
Good luck to all present and future students.
I also am an Instructor (Ground) at Oxford. Yes we did have a company briefing from the new MD. Yes times are tough. Yes the previous MD may have made some mis-informed decisions, however, I have confidence in the new MD as, although he has to turn a profit, he is a holder of an ATPL licence and is current in the industry. After all this is a business not a flying club.
There is room for improvement at all levels, but I for one firmly believe that the present downturn in the industry is short term, that it was inevitable even without Sept 11, and I will as always do my best to ensure that the students I teach learn what they need to know to pass JAA exams.
I cannot answer for anyone else, and will not expand my opinion further. If you want to do ATPL, get the facts from the various schools, ask around the real Pilot world, find out what students think at the various establishments and then make an informed decision. DO NOT base your decision on one bid of criticism or praise in any one forum.
Good luck to all present and future students.
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Hi Guys,
Don't rate Oxford as going down the slopes to oblivion! They phoned me to ask if I would be interested in a job as a Met Instructor with the ground school.
They are more likely to be re-structuring the training needs at Oxford, in the light of student numbers and training bases in UK and USA.
John Standen
Met Instructor ex SECOAT & PPSC
Don't rate Oxford as going down the slopes to oblivion! They phoned me to ask if I would be interested in a job as a Met Instructor with the ground school.
They are more likely to be re-structuring the training needs at Oxford, in the light of student numbers and training bases in UK and USA.
John Standen
Met Instructor ex SECOAT & PPSC
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There's never been a question of the theory being excellent at Oxford and so is the sim training and always will be but unfortunately some of the attitudes in other areas have shades of 1925 not even 1945 a wealth of experience is great but is no good if you can remember what you did 30yrs ago but not what happened yesterday,take a look in their crew room , if they move with the times they will survive.