Where do i have to put my feets?

[Pablo737]

My question is simple. I 've been read the flight crew trainning manual and it 's say that on taxi you have to put your feets on the floor and touch the brakes the minumun as posible. But it isn't say nothing about how do you have to put your feets in the takeoff run?

Sorry about my english.
Thank you.
Pablo:bored:

[Notso Fantastic]

Pablo, you must be able to touch the brakes immediately when you taxy. On the take-off run, you must not be touching the brake at all. If you have a crosswind on takeoff with a lot of rudder pushed on, there is a danger you may press that toe brake. So you must have both heels on the floor for take-off. I have had a take-off abandoned in a 4 engine jet because the other pilot was pushing a rudder pedal hard and had pressed the brake too. It is easy to do.
Your English is better than our Spanish!

[wing737]

An inadvertant push of brakes during the taxi is something you'll never want to do.I did that in my initial 737 training,I wanted to taste the feeling of the braking action so I asked the instructor captain if I can do the braking for once.He said OK but even though I tried to be gentle my inexperienced feet did a terrible job and for a moment it felt like the airplane hits to a wall.So I learnt it the hard way.

Its better to keep the heels on the floor as perfectly explained by "Notsofantastic"

[Pablo737]

I think the same as you, and i do that. But the flight crew trainning manual doesn't say.
regards
Pablo:ok:

[calypso]

Pablo (paisano),

This is what I do. If it is my T/O I put my heels on the bottom of the pedals with the toes barely touching the brakes. I want to be able to stop if I have to and I don´t want to be looking for the brakes at 130kts. I know that usually the autobrake will do the job but in case it doesn´t activate. If It is not my T/O I rest my feet on the bottom of the pedals and follow what the other guy is doing, in case of incapacitation I can take over but (hopefully) the other guy cannot feel any extra pressure on the pedals.

In my experience it takes a couple of centimetres of travel before you activate the brakes in the 737 (that is why it is quite difficult to be progressive with them).

We do not taxi from the right hand seat, so while taxing I keep my feet in the floor.

I agreee that pressing the brakes inadvertently during the T/O is not recomended

[capt.magoo]

WING.
YOURE INSTRUCTER SHOULD HAVE TOLD YOU THAT THOSE BRAKES ARE CARBON.MEANING WHEN YOU APPLY SLIGHT PRESSURE ON THE BRAKES NOTHING HAPPENS UNTIL THEY WARM UP THEN THEY WORK. SO IN OTHER WORDS THERE IS A TIME LAG .:p

[18-Wheeler]

I do the same as Calypso.
If you have to abort the takeoff it's usually in a hurry. The less time it takes to put the brakes on the better - It can make the difference between running off the runway and not.

[wing737]

Capt.magoo,
In my Boeing manuals I couldn't find any information about a warm up time needed before using the brakes otherwise they won't work.Although -since we don't do taxying from the right side in 737-I don't use the brakes too much during taxi but most of the times the brakes are already warm from the previous landing.

In the experience I stated was contraverse what you said I applied not too much pressure and the responce was quick instead of lacking and hard.It was the first time experience of an inexperienced copilot which tought me a valuable lesson.

If you please guide me where I can reach the information you provided I can add some to my knowledge. :p

Regards.WING737

[calypso]

Not all 737's have carbon brakes. I beleive that the NG's do but that in the classic they are an option. At least our 300's do not have them...

In the scenario of an engine failure before V1 and a limiting runway I cannot see how you can have your heels on the floor and yet do a max effort braking. You will need nifty footwork just to keep to the centerline, specially with asymetric reverse. At wich point are you going to be able to lift your feet from the pedals to find the brakes?. If the autobrake does not operate it is going to get very interesting, in any case max braking is always manual.

Any other views?

[FlareArmed]

I have tried both methods on takeoff in various aircraft types. In general, I feel more comfortable with heels on the floor because I can make finer adjustments to rudder deflection.

The main risk being discussed seems to be associated with a slight delay in braking. On the B737, there is a two second period allowed to establish the stopping configuration (3 seconds on more recently certified aircraft like the A320). IMHO, the 'heels on floor' method is low risk because a number of events would need to coincide before it was a problem, including:

1. The autobrakes would have to fail.

2. I would have to be relatively slow in applying maximum braking.

3. A failure would have to occur very close to V1.

4. The TORA would have to be a balanced field or close to it.

While this is not inconceivable, I am not sure if the risks of dragging a brake on takeoff are outweighed by the risks of 'heels on floor', particularly as I rarely see a balanced field (normally atleast 1000' to spare).

All that aside, if there is some objective data available I am keen to see it.

[El Peligroso]

I agree with the post above.

Have ALWAYS been taught to taxi with heels on floor. The time it takes from having them there to applying brakes (under any circumstances) is in my opinion negligable.
If you don't know where the brakes are when your heels are on the floor (hence toes on bottom of rudder pedals) then I'd say you probably need "a little" more training.
:rolleyes:

[calypso]

We do plenty of improved climb TO's where I can assure you the end of the runway looks very close at V1. In fact to the naked eye it looks like it would be impossible to stop, the figures tell otherwise though. Another potential hazard is a runway incursion.

Even if the figures allow a three second delay, this includes recognition, etc. You still will need to lift your feet from the pedals in order to reposition them further up. If you have a significant input on the pedals (due to a crosswind or an engine failure) you may not be ablle to release the pedals even momentarely without veering off the centreline.

I could reply to EL Peligroso likewise that if you think you may drag a brake on TO you might need some further training. It does not enhance the argument however. The problem is not finding the brakes but being able to release the control input to reposition your feet.

[sixmilehighclub]

I heard of a incident where brakes were applied accidentally(although almost wet myself when I was told) ...

A colleague of mine, a CC member on a B737-3, decides that it is easier to balance at the overwings, during safety demo on taxy, by lodging his feet under the metal bag restraints under the aisle seats.

During a fairly fast taxy out, suddenly the brakes were slammed on, sending him leaning back fast. Grabbing the seats either side of him to stop him falling backwards onto the aisle floor, the seatbacks folded forwards forcing two pax into the brace position!! Ouch.

Wouldnt have been as funny if it hadnt have been for the fact the demo had just reached the part "if you hear the words brace, brace, you must take up this position immediately".

Mal mate, where are you now???!!!
:E

[FlareArmed]

Calypso,

I take it you have your heels off the floor for each takeoff, routinely. I agree that improved climb looks very marginal, even on a long runway. I am interested in your experience using this technique in the aircraft and simulator.

Is this a personal technique or a company SOP?

Have you ever experienced any problems with it?

Is inadvertant brake application in a strong crosswind an issue?

[Notso Fantastic]

With all civil designs I have seen, it is essential to have heels firmly on floor during take-off. If braking is needed, it takes an instant to raise the feet to press the toe brakes, with minimal movement of the rudder.
I was copilot to a pilot who twisted himself around in his seat to apply strong rudder on take off on a big jet in a powerful crosswind. Unbeknown to all of us, it inadvertently lifted that foot off the floor. To all our consternation, we were heading towards the side of the runway (09R) unable to get back towards the centreline. We wold have run off but Stop was called at 120 kts. He wasn't aware that his foot was off the floor and also pushing the toe brake. Keep them heels firmly on the floor! Why do you think the floor is so highly polished?

[LEM]

I don't agree with Notso.

Keeping the heels on the floor during takeoff is no good for two reasons:

1) Immediate braking is required, and having to raise your feet invariably delays this manoeuver;

2) Even more important is the fact that in a strong crosswind you are already applying pressure on the pedals: raising your feet on the brakes is impossible without releasing that pressure, thus for a moment you'll have to leave the rudder free floating!

Keep your feet on the pedals, making a conscious effort not to press the brakes.

Of course if you plan to rely on autobrakes only that's another story, but what if the autobrake disarm?

The only 100% safe technique is to use RTO plus full manual braking thereafter.


LEM

[calypso]

Flare Armed,

My company does not have a specific SOP on this issue. I always put my feet on the pedals (ie off the floor) for TO, I make all the pressure with the heels of my feet. This isn't very hard as the pedals are at an angle to facilitate this. I have never had any problems with this technique either in the a/c or the sim.

In the 737 should you activate the brakes accidentally during TO you will certainly know about it in the form of a violent jolt. If this happens I guess it is beacause the pedals are adjusted to be to far from the seat. You will need then to strech the foot to achieve full rudder deflection. I always make sure that I can achieve full deflection with my heels.

Given the different views here I will ask the powers that be if there is a prefered technique.

Taxi is a diferent matter as the speeds are not critical and the steering is done form the steering wheel. In any case as I never taxi I keep my feet on the floor. I would only brake during taxi if I was asked or if we were about to run over an old lady ;-)

[Notso Fantastic]

LEM, you may feel you have a point to make about holding your heels off the floor during T/O. If people try and follow your suggestion, I can guarantee we will see exploded tyres/hairy takeoffs/planes off runway/abandoned take-offs. On all 5 jet types and one turboprop I have flown, it has always been powerfully stressed to me to 'firmly keep heels on floor during take-off, and whatever you do, don't touch the toebrakes!' It may be more obvious if you do on the 737, but on heavy jets it will be insidious and you will not feel it. I have had a take-off abandoned because of it, and it involved tyre deflation too. All I can say is don't take any notice of personal speculation. If you do not have autobrakes, it takes but an instant to raise your feet a couple of inches to reach the toebrakes. But if you try and take off a heavy with any braking on, you are going to have a huge problem!
Your point 2 is quite wrong. You only have to press the upper part of the rudder pedal for braking. Push the pedal in a crosswind take off with heel off the floor and you have no way of knowing if you actually have applied braking pressure. By keeping your heel on the floor, you can only press the lower bar so no pressure is applied to the brake system.
I submit 4,700 hours experience on B737 200/400

[LEM]

There might be a misunderstanding in our explanations, as it's not so easy to tell what we exactly mean, also because of a language problem (in my case).

When I say heels off the floor, I don't mean feet all the way up, but the middle of the foot on the pedal hinge...

I hope you see what I mean... difficult to explain, a simple thing like that! ;)

So actually the position I use is half foot off the pedal, half on the pedal.

Clear as mud, perhaps, but I submit 5000 hrs turboprop experience with reversible rudder control (that means the fu**ing gust is gonna push violently on your pedals, thus on your feet), and I can guarantee using the heels dragging on the floor technique in strong winds might make raising your feet to brake almost impossible!

Of course that's different with powered non reversible controls, and with autobrakes it's even easier.



Once again, I mean a half-half position.... :cool:

[Notso Fantastic]

On turboprops downward, you can feel absolutely any brake application at any power. It is not true for 737 and upward jets, and this is the danger of having any inadvertent braking on. You just can't always feel it. The only way to be absolutely sure is to have heels firmly pressed down and sliding on the floor so that only the bottom of the rudder pedal, or the lower bar, is touched, especially in a crosswind. Any different and you too will be calling out "Stop!" in a high pitched voice, except in our case it was 2 words, the second of which was "....Hell!". No more needed to be said!

[FlareArmed]

I found some comments, based on objective data, in the FAA Takeoff Safety Training Aid. In summary, it appears not to matter which method is used.

The pilot’s foot position relative to the rudder pedal can also have an effect on the achievement of full brake pressure. It was noted during the Takeoff Safety Training Aid Human Performance Study that foot position during the takeoff roll tends to be an individual preference. Some pilots prefer to have their feet “up on the pedals� to be ready to apply full brakes if required. Pilots who prefer this technique also noted that their toes are “curled back� to avoid unwanted brake applications when applying rudder.

The other technique is to rest the heels on the floor during the takeoff roll, and then raise them to be on the pedal to apply full braking. No problems were noted with either technique One technique which did not work well was also noted, however. It was not possible to apply maximum brake pedal deflection, and hence full brake pressure, if the heel of the foot is left on the floor, unless the pilot has big feet.

[Notso Fantastic]

Sorry- I have to step in again. The hazards of taking off with even small braking applied outweigh the alleged disadvantages (which I don't agree with) of the delay of a few tenths of a second of having to lift your feet about 3 inches to apply braking. Take-off how you like, just be doubly, trebly sure you don't have even a minute amount of braking applied! It will be the end of a promising career! The only way to be sure is to have those heels firmly sliding on the floor. I have seen a pilot cause an abandoned takeoff at 120 kts. because he did not have one heel on the floor in a strong crosswind. I've seen someone screw up because of it- I have learnt the lesson. You can find any number of references to 'have your feet where you like'. But the system is designed so you cannot apply braking with your heels on the floor. You can apply braking with your heel off the floor. What more needs to be said?

[safetypee]

What needs to be said Notso Fantastic is you must either be very unfamiliar with your aircraft or it is not of a particularly good design. The certification regulations provide ample protection against inadvertent rudder input during take off or landing in a crosswind. Thus you overrate the problem of brake application during takeoff.

The problem of heels on the floor is not only the time it takes to move the feet, but also that the feet are not moved. In time of stress (RTO) we forget – human error.

The RTO training guide is based on accident evidence where crew have attempted to apply full brake by rotating the ankles with the heels still on the floor; in most aircraft types this is very difficult if not impossible. Furthermore when the rudder is only adjusted to enable full travel with the feet on the bar, then you may not get full travel when attempting to brake i.e. crosswind RTO double trouble. Follow the manufactures / industry advice.

[Notso Fantastic]

<Follow the manufactures / industry advice.>......which is.....keep your heels firmly on the floor! In support, I can only quote nearly 18,000 hours on VC10, 747, 737 (2 models) and 747-400 (all designs adequate!), with 2 years twin turboprop thrown in for good measure. On every one of them, 'keep your heels firmly on the floor'.
<The certification regulations provide ample protection against inadvertent rudder input during take off or landing in a crosswind. Thus you overrate the problem of brake application during takeoff.> So how serious do you rate an abandoned T/O on a 747, a couple of tyres lost? Because the handling pilot lifted his heel off the floor to better push the rudder in a strong crosswind!
Are we going to have people/aeroplanes bent because the lesson won't be learned? How much of an example do you need? You cite the rare example of an abandoned T/O with the pilot trying to apply brakes without lifting his feet. Out of how many thousands of T/Os with pilots who do not keep their feet down do you think someone will have one or more brakes applied when they shouldn't?
(I'd swear on this board if someone said you get airborne by pulling the stick, someone will pipe up with 'but you can get airborne by pushing it'! Yeah- if you were upside down)

[safetypee]

Notso Fantastic the text that FlareArmed referred to is here: Take off Training Guide, (http://uk.geocities.com/[email protected]/alf5071h.htm) see Sect 2_42.pdf 2.3.6.5 Manual Braking Techniques. Note that this is a Boeing approved document.

In an RTO stop maneuver, the feet should be up on the rudder pedals and steady, heavy pressure applied until the airplane is completely stopped. Pilots should develop a habit of adjusting their seat and the rudder pedals prior to leaving the gate. The ability to apply maximum brake pedal force as well as full rudder should be checked by both pilots.
If you could post a reference for the Boeing training recommendation then perhaps we could question Boeing about any differences, if any. I would still address the human factors issue that if a crew starts with their heels on the floor then the opportunity for error exists, whereas if the feet are on the rudder bar then opportunity for failure to move the feet into a position to give maximum breaking has been eliminated; which improves safety.
--------------------
Airspeed and Upwardness

[Notso Fantastic]

Eminently sensible, and nobody is arguing where to put your feet in an RTO stop manouevre! The point is....where to put your feet in a Take Off manoevre.
<In an RTO stop maneuver, the feet should be up on the rudder pedals and steady, heavy pressure applied until the airplane is completely stopped

[maxy101]

Just out of interest, some Boeing sims have a facility to measure the individual braking of each pedal. I was demonstrated this during cross wind landing training to show how you don´t always get the manual braking that you think you are inputting. It may be worth the above contributors using this facility to see how much brake they may be inadvertantly inputting on T/O.