Landings!!!

[Flying Spice]

Hi Guys

New to this forum so be gentle with me:cool:

I just wanted to ask you experienced flyers for some advice on landings.

I currently have 11 hours, and have started circuits. I do pretty good approaches at the moment but I am convinced that is because of excess use of/use of the PAPI... I have been spoilt at my current airfield.

The other week we did cross wind circuits .. and you guessed it.. no PAPI.. I found it difficult to judge whether Iwas too high or too low. Consequently I ended up doing steep descents.... and slightly back damaging landings.... :O I finally got it right on my last circuit.... since then I have been trying not look at it, but those beautiful lights just draw me in....:rolleyes:

Any advice?

Flying Spice...

[Penguina]

Perhaps you could just ask ATC to turn off the PAPIs when you're flying the approach (or get your instructor to do it)? Then you can do what us provincial cousins at places without PAPIs do and try and keep the paint spot/squashed bug on the window aligned with the numbers until you flare... :)

[ToryBoy]

I must confess I find it slightly unnerving that your instructor has encouraged you to rely on PAPI lights so early in your training.

A crucial part of learning a good circuit is getting comfortable with the different visual aspects you should be trying to achieve at different stages around the circuit, the most important of which is the final appraoch.

Penguinas point about using a mark on the windscreen to help you line up is a great one for learning and can be used at even the roughest and untechnically advanced farm strips!

I'm not wishing to sound harsh but that is my opinion.

On the subject of the flare, just aim to fly the aircraft down the runway at about two feet of height with the power off. If it trys to sink keep squeezing back on the stick untiul it just gives up and puts the mainwheels on the tarmac. You won't jar your back and you certainly won't get a bounce using this method. Just before the mainwheels touch you should hardly be able to see much of the runway ahead of you as it should be obscured by the engine cowling.

Good luck with the rest of the course.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Is there any reason you are using the PAPIs? They are for instrument approaches, and indicate a faily shallow glide slope suitable for powered approaches by large transport aircraft.

Light aeroplanes (especially singles) normally approach more steeply than that, and any PAPI indications should show that you are high on the approach and should be ignored. The correct technique will be explained in your training manual (Thom or whatever yoy use) and should have been explained by your instructor.

Hope you get this sorted - and I suggest you have a chat with your instructor about it.

SSD

[Flying Spice]

Light aeroplanes (especially singles) normally approach more steeply than that, and any PAPI indications should show that you are high on the approach and should be ignored

I have studied with 2 instructors and neither have mentioned this to me.:confused:

Perhaps I should have a chat with my instructor.. thanks for the advice.

[FNG]

I agree with Shaggy that you ought to forget about PAPIs for visual approaches in light aeroplanes. As your crosswind trip may have indicated, the plan is to learn to land on any runway, not just a particular runway. At many GA fields there are no PAPIs and the only thing you get in the undershoot is a bunch of nimbys throwing rocks at you, and attempts to use these as approach aids meet with mixed results

May I tentatively suggest that your instructors have got their airline hats on too tightly if they have been encouraging you to look at lights on sticks. The squished bug on screen (aka spot that does not move) method is well described in Langewische's commendable tome "Stick and Rudder". I'm just fed up with all the fuel I've burned flying around trying to get the bug in just the right place.

[DRJAD]

I'd just be inclined to urge a note of caution regarding any assumption as to the glideslope indicated by the PAPIs.

As has been said, at commercial, etc., airports the PAPIs probably indicate around a 3 degree slope, whilst at other fields, if PAPI equipped, they may indicate a steeper slope, e.g. 4 degrees at Sherburn, I believe.

The moral, of course, as in all things aviation related, is not to make assumptions, but to look it up in the AIP.

As far as landings in general are concerned, I agree that there is no substitute for familiarity with the desired appearance of the runway when on final. Aiming for the numbers, 'flying the numbers' w.r.t. threshold speed, etc., and a flare leading to a hold off just above the runway, with idle power, until the aircraft settles gently onto the ground mainwheels first.

As I have seen elsewhere, the aim is to strike the planet a (gentle) glancing blow!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

As I have seen elsewhere, the aim is to strike the planet a (gentle) glancing blow!

Nah, that's what I tend to do if I flare a tad low in the Chippy. What I aim for is "to prevent the aeroplane from landing by gentle, continuous, backward movement of the stick, the wheels just above the runway, until despite my continued rearward stick movement the aeroplane settles gently on to the ground 3-point (if it's a taildragger) or mainwheels first (if it's a trike)".

SSD

[Fuji Abound]

Next time when you are on a couple of mile final pull the power and see what happens! - you may not reckon the lights to be quite so enticing next time.

There has been debate before on PPrune about whether (or not) you should fly the approach on the basis if you lost the engine you would make the threshold - I seem to remember their were views both ways. What ever, the chances are on most types if you fly the PAPIs you certainly wont, but where is the glide slope for your type?? At least this way you will have a pretty good idea if the worst should happen whether you will be in the car park or on the runway. It will also be of help in due course with your PFL training.

In due course as others have said ask the tower to turn off the PAPIs or ask your instructor to take you for a few circuits at an airfield without PAPIs (most dont have them), although to be fair to your instructor often airports authorised for training are the ones with PAPIs.

Where do you fly from?

[shortstripper]

I must be lucky! I learnt to fly gliders ... from fields not runways!

It's a great way to learn. You get to appreciate surface, slope and obstical avoidance right from the start. No relying on the "image" of a defined runway for visual clues and therefore no danger of later seeing false clues when approaching wider, longer or whatever runways! You simply learn to fly by attitude, choose your landing site, adjust descent rate with airbrake or throttle and hey presto! pretty well perfect approachs every time!

Sound too simplistic? ... it isn't ... it's really easy ... well I've always found it so :ok:

IM

[G-Foxtrot Oscar 69]

Tune to ILS and fly down the pipe:ok:

BUT Now on a serious note!

It will come when you get used to seeing the picture.

In regards to PAPIs not working for light aircraft I have never heard that before. If that is the case they would not work for the great cross section of airliners ie A380 v SAAB 340.

Also why should light aircraft make a steeper approach? It is all a distance to threshold against altitude. If you are making a steeper approach then you are making more work in the hold off and will be high on the start of final.

I have found there seems to be no right or wrong way to land. each person has a slioghtly different take that works for them.

Remember they are only "accurate" to approx 300' AAL!

[Arclite01]

Why is no one teaching you about visual aiming points/reference points ?
If you are getting it right the reference point remains constant on the canopy relative to the horizon, if you are undershooting your chosen reference point goes up the canopy and if you are overshooting your reference point disappears under the nose, you can compensate accordingly with power or attitude adjustments - once you are over the numbers dump the power and glide it down (using the old Mk1 eyeball to judge the distance/angles).

It's real basic, shortstripper is right. 1 hour in a motorglider with about 15 circuits/landings will soon sort you out !!

I've never used a PAPI in my life - surprised a low time pilot even knows what they are !!! (only just found out what one is myself !!!)

and good luck !!

Arc

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

In regards to PAPIs not working for light aircraft I have never heard that before. If that is the case they would not work for the great cross section of airliners ie A380 v SAAB 340.

Also why should light aircraft make a steeper approach? It is all a distance to threshold against altitude. If you are making a steeper approach then you are making more work in the hold off and will be high on the start of final.

GFO69 - PAPIS will work for a bumble bee if he has the eyesight to see them. But even if he has, he wouldn't bother 'cause it wouldn't be appropriate.

Why should a light single make a steeper (than 3 degree?) approach?

Are you serious?

SSD

[Flying Spice]

Where do you fly from?

Biggin Hill (at the moment)

FS

[Gertrude the Wombat]

because of excess use of/use of the PAPI Ah yes. I once commented on the PAPI and the instant response of my instructor was to call the tower and get them to switch it off.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Come on folks, lets be a bit more tolerant. Not FS who made the rules here!

FS is asking for our help and advice, not for being shot down on the approach!

FD

[Monocock]

Flyin Dutch.......my sentiments exactly.

He's a guy who is learning and he was looking for an answer to a simple question.

I have removed myself from this forum for a couple of weeks now due to the bickering, "cleverness" and "I should be an instructor" attitude that so many people seem to be adopting on these threads.

Reading this thread so far from start to finish I wouldn't be surprised if the Flying Spice decided to take up macrami or windsurfing instead.

It seems to have become a test of everyones knowledge at any expense or opportunity recently, and it 'aint what it used to be here.

Spiceman, if you want to use the PAPI's then use them. I expect your instructor will soon get you off them with some PAPI patches or something so you'll be nicely prepared for your first Compton Abbas trip where they line up the sheep in a similar shape.

[Kingy]

Flying Spice - Hello and welcome!

May I point you towards this great article from Budd Davisson on the subject.

It says everything I want say, but in a way someone might understand!!

Hit The Spot (http://airbum.com/articles/ArticleHitSpot.html)

Kingy

[Phoenix09]

He's a guy who is learning and he was looking for an answer to a simple question.
I think that you might find that Flying Spice is actually a lady. :D

[Mr Wolfie]

Calm down everyone. Have a look at this-

http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3368&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I think someone is pulling our plonker:D
(Not for the only time today - Hi Flyer Forum).

Mr.W

[Fly Stimulator]

Indeed.

Shades of Monty Python as some seek to divide the already tiny UK flying community up on the basis of choice of discussion forum into something akin to The People's Front of Judea and The Judean People's Front.

Good plan! :rolleyes:

[Flying Spice]

Calm down everyone. Have a look at this-

Hi all

(BTW - I am a lady....)

However I put the question on this forum because I did want some help....

However I noted some comments as being quite direct....:sad:

This thread is a geniune thread on my part.

I was not joking.

So for all who have commented/given advice, thank you.

:ok:

[M14P]

OK - Back to basics.

You need to see the 'shape' of the runway environment in order that you might start to remember the correct aspect. Ask for your instructor to demo this - at your stage I'd suggest that as much as 1/3 of your time in the circuit should be in the form of (immaculately flown), well pattered demos.

I'd also ask for the PAPIs to be switched off.

You instructor should also demo being above the glide slope and below the glide slope (not the instrument slope necessarily!) and teach you both how to recognise and how to correct these situations.

Constant or fixed aspect priciples work well as something to hang your hat on - if your desired touchdown point is not moving in your windshield you will hit (land!) it. If it's moving up you are going low (undershooting) if it is moving down you are going high (overshooting)

At the touch down point - can I suggest some golden rules:

A good landing rarely follows a bad approach

Three main sections of the touchdown phase are quite clearly defined as; Flare - to stop the rate of descent; Fly level a foot or two above the runway as the speed decays; Settle onto the mainwheels. Note - It is not possible to go from step one to step three missing step two!!!

Finally, once you have mastered Biggin get your instructor to take you to other runways (shorter, narrow, wider etc) so that you can get the feel of how runway shape can affect your perception of vertical positioning on the final approach.

Have fun...

[GroundBound]

I've done some nice landings and some crap landings, but having read the article posted by Kingy, I'm now prompted to admit a bit of confusion. :confused:

All this about the touch down point being where the perspective doesn't move up/down the windscreen, doesn't seem to work for me. :{

The non-moving point is not where your (my?) wheels touch, but the point where I commence the flare. By the time I've lost the excess speed (1.3 * stall), got the nose high (when I really get it right, gulp), then I've floated a good chunk down the runway (maybe 100 metres, plus?), before that gentle squeak from the tyres annnounces the fun's over.

So if I want to touch down at a specific point, then I have to aim a bit before my desired touch down point, i.e. undershooting slightly.

Having said this, I'm sure someone will now explain what I'm doing wrong. :)

[Flyin'Dutch']

GB,

I think from what you write you actually are doing it right!

No need for selfdeprication!

FD

[VFR800]

Flying Spice,

I orginally learnt to fly at Bristol, where the PAPI's are always on, to be honest, you've got to get them switched off, as a GA pilot you need to be able to land at runways that have no visual aids. I'm sure the Tower will oblige if you ask.

The all 'long and thin' too high and 'short 'n fat' too low, works for me! :)

[Slow-Rider]

GB

I do it the same way. As you say your aiming point will be your flaring point unless you adjust you aiming point when very short finals.

To land on numbers I aim for them all the way down the approach and then over the threshold when i am sure i will make the flaring point i lower the nose slightly (more a thought than a movement) and reduce power to keep speed. Flare at the appropriate height touch down on numbers! (sometimes)

Don't know how correct that is but works for me and a few other i know.

[hoey5o]

Flying spice, Get those papi's switched off if you can.

papi's in general are not for light aircraft use. The reason and there seems to be some confusion here, is because they are calibrated to take you down to the touchdown point on the runway not the numbers. If you want to land on those big white rectangular markings further up the runway then the papis will take you there however you should be aiming for the numbers with your mark one eyeball. To be honest your instructors let you down here.

[brisl]

FS -

I'm another who learnt at Bristol (PAPI's nearly always on unless you ask) and at the time I really couldn't tell whether I was relying on the PAPI's or not, although with hindsight I think I was drawn to the slightly low approach that they tempt you into. I certainly shared the concerns you mentioned in your original post.

For what it's worth, as soon as land aways started, the absence of PAPIs just wasn't a problem. So in my opinion, yes it's a legitimate concern, but no it probably won't give you a problem when they aren't there.

[Penguina]

Hi again,

I find pprune can be a bit scary from time to time and do try to watch what I say here, but I think that came from the right kind of culture initially - sharing things that help keep safe. It's just that it overspills into preachiness sometimes, I think. Basically they're nice here.

One thing to add to the idea of keeping a point (the numbers) in the same place on the windscreen (which has saved my bacon getting high or low many times, including on my first solo! :) ) is don't do what I used to do from time to time and get so fixated on the point and airspeed that you catch yourself growing or shrinking in your seat to keep it there!

[Algirdas]

I fly an AX2000 microlight - which has a VERY steep approach, with a VERY late flare. The way I find works for me is to get the picture as right as possible on the turn to final, then peg the right speed once on final, which creates a given glideslope, which allows you to see where you would land if you were to make no further adjustment. Easy then to see if you are too high or too low. If I need to drop my approach a bit, a touch of sideslip is nice, if I need to extend a bit, a bit of power sorts this out. We microlight boys are taught to land with no power - (which has to be the safe way to do it) - so my mindset is "better too high than too low" on final.
Re the comment on light a/c needing a steeper glideslope, the lighter the a/c, the less the inertia, the greater the susceptibility to changes in wind/air forces. Also the slower the approach - so any wind changes are a far greater percentage of airspeed than for a big plane - which can lead to a bigger & quicker loss of height - too shallow a glideslope can see a light one in the boonies with an amount of shear etc that a biggie wouldn't notice much. That's why I like my approach high and slopy!:ok:

[aces low]

Just a comment as to why 3.5 degree glideslope PAPIs are not suitable for light aircraft. All airfields have a degree of windshear assocaited with the approach to a runway. You have probably noticed that between about 100 and 300 feet the aircarft sinks a little (or a lot on a windy day). The degree of sink will depend upon the time you spend in the windshear zone. A heavy ( and thus fast) aeroplane transits the zone quickly and is less affected by the sink. A light aerplane doing a groundspeed of 50-60 knots will stay in the zone for longer and will be affected by it for longer...causing more sink. End result...potential undershoot and the need to add power...and destabilise the approach.

Much better to fly an a steeper approach or to land further into the field (if this is an option). As an instructor I have taught many people to master the approach...and one of the first things I always say is ignore the PAPIs, stabilise the approach and look to see that you aiming point remians constant in the window. Also as the wind and windshear increseas, aim further into the runway for touchdown. There is currently a discussion about this on the instructors forum at the moment.

[mixturelean]

Hi Flying Spice.

I had a lot of problems getting the set up right on finals - a certain amount of a good approach is getting an "eye" for the correct approach.

As you probably realise by now (11 hours) every landing is different than the previous one because of flight path, wind direction, wind speed etc.

After about 15 hours of circuit bashing I was getting frustrated with my lack of progress and changed instructors - the new instructor gave 2 pieces of very good advise:

1) Set up the final approach so that the bottom of the windscreen is along the start of the runway, varying power and speed to maintain this picture.

2) At about 10/20 feet above runway change your gaze from the runway in front of propeller to the end of the runway,

.............................works every time for me!!


Mixturelean.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Mixturelean :

Did your instructor mention to flare before you look up at the end of the runway?

[mixturelean]

To what ???????:confused:

Mixturelean

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Mixturelean :

To " flare "

An approach and landing requires several difinitave attitudes.

(1) The stablized approach attitude to the height at which you.....

(2) ...... Flare or round out, to the level attitude.

(3)......The hold off segment where speed decays and height above the runway decreases as you progressively raise the nose to the landing attitude...

The above is for nose wheel airplanes.

It is very important to learn the best method in all your flying so you will not need retraining after you get your license. :ok:

Chuck

[Flying Spice]

Well I excelled myself today at Rochester:{

I landed my first circuit too fast (80 knots).

So the speed didn't decay before the ridge.... and bounced, x 3 times.....:(

We had to pull off and check the front wheel and suspension....:eek:

Anyway after this suffice to say I landed very delicately.... at the right speed (v paranoid)...

No PAPI or anything, so I have learned a valuable lesson...

I hope this gets easier....:rolleyes:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So the speed didn't decay before the ridge.... and bounced, x 3 times... Ah, now, there was a thread on this not very long ago.

At the point where you realised you were too fast you had the option of going around - why did you choose not to?

After the first bounce you had the option of going around - why did you choose not to?

After the second bounce you had the option of going around - why did you choose not to?

I would guess that the answer might be that you were not, in fact, actively considering whether to go around at each of these points, and didn't, in fact, make any such concious decision. That's understandable, at your stage, as it's one of the things you have to learn to do. What's less easy to guess is why the instructor (you say "we" so I assume you weren't solo) didn't (a) remind you to consider the option of going around, or (b) tell you to go around, or (c) take control and go around. (Of course the instructor might very well have had perfectly good reasons, all I'm saying is that I can't guess what they were from what you've posted.)

PS: We've all done it.

[Flying Spice]

(you say "we" so I assume you weren't solo) didn't (a) remind you to consider the option of going around, or (b) tell you to go around, or (c) take control and go around.

I agree.

I haven't learn't this yet but didn't think it was managed as well as it could have been....

Wasn't my normal FI so... lesson learned anyway...

[Final 3 Greens]

FS

Keep pressing ahead - it's easy to get hung up on landings (we all do during our PPL and sometimes afterwards too), but in a 100 hours or so, the technique will become unconscious and automatic (you'll still do the odd 'arrival' amongst your greasers.)

At this stage you need to be safe rather than perfect and your FI will have a handle on this level.

It comes with practice ;)

[PilotOnline]

It does get better with practice, everyone says this but it is true.

I know this is going off topic somewhat but I found for the first time at the weekend what it's like to have a bad parking day in an aeroplane. For anyone at Shoreham on Saturday, I hang my head in shame!:O Just make sure that the row you want to taxi down is wide enough to get through at the other end!! Never done that before, will not be doing it again either!

As with landings, some days you will make a mess of it but as someone pointed out earlier, if it doesn't look or feel right go around.