HUMBERSIDE - 2
Join Date: Aug 2004
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HUY Long term Potential / Growth
Hi guys,
Is Huy capable of sustained growth for scheduled operations, past performance of incumbent operators of the airport seem to reflect the answer is a negative.
Withstanding sentimental thoughts that each one of us are protecting a local regional airport, especially with an alternative that has seen huge growth and like it or not is dliuting the potential traffic from the airport does Huy need to examine long term exactly which market it needs to attract to grow / maximise its revenues.
Low cost / regional operators seem attracted but are not prepared to spend the time and money to grow routes from the airport, the low costs seem to of attracted alot of intrest and self loading cargo has flocked to the airport but to continually fill an aircraft of the 7373 / A320 family seems to be not sustainable at the moment. A smaller aircraft but offering the schedule recently offered I presume could work but is such an airline prepared to invest in the long term, I doubt that this is the case, shareholder returns seem to prevent this short term loss against a profitable (marginally maybe!) long term investment.
Would be intrested to hear peoples thoughts and views of the above
Regards
Circseam
Is Huy capable of sustained growth for scheduled operations, past performance of incumbent operators of the airport seem to reflect the answer is a negative.
Withstanding sentimental thoughts that each one of us are protecting a local regional airport, especially with an alternative that has seen huge growth and like it or not is dliuting the potential traffic from the airport does Huy need to examine long term exactly which market it needs to attract to grow / maximise its revenues.
Low cost / regional operators seem attracted but are not prepared to spend the time and money to grow routes from the airport, the low costs seem to of attracted alot of intrest and self loading cargo has flocked to the airport but to continually fill an aircraft of the 7373 / A320 family seems to be not sustainable at the moment. A smaller aircraft but offering the schedule recently offered I presume could work but is such an airline prepared to invest in the long term, I doubt that this is the case, shareholder returns seem to prevent this short term loss against a profitable (marginally maybe!) long term investment.
Would be intrested to hear peoples thoughts and views of the above
Regards
Circseam
Thread Starter
I think if anyone knew the true answer it would have been posted on here by now, i fear this debate will go around in circles forever.
Again RE is rumoured but who knows? Probably not even the airport going by the FR rumour last year. When you say investing in the long term do you mean expansion of routes? The limited expansion potential would probably deter a lo-co from basing aircraft, perhaps one of the reasons they havent got one.
The current KLM route and the charter routes are, i believe, the strongest market for HUY as far as pax services goes. They must at leats keep those assets before entering into low cost services proper which are as yet un proven at HUY.
A smaller aircraft but offering the schedule recently offered I presume could work but is such an airline prepared to invest in the long term, I doubt that this is the case, shareholder returns seem to prevent this short term loss against a profitable (marginally maybe!) long term investment.
Again RE is rumoured but who knows? Probably not even the airport going by the FR rumour last year. When you say investing in the long term do you mean expansion of routes? The limited expansion potential would probably deter a lo-co from basing aircraft, perhaps one of the reasons they havent got one.
Withstanding sentimental thoughts that each one of us are protecting a local regional airport, especially with an alternative that has seen huge growth and like it or not is dliuting the potential traffic from the airport does Huy need to examine long term exactly which market it needs to attract to grow / maximise its revenues.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Hotel Uniform Yankee
XLA have pulled out due to a "reorganigation of the business", not as far as I know due to Diversions or lack of fire cover or raising of landing fees.
Just where do you get such information? Certainly not from XLA! I work for the company, live locally, as do many crew, both pilots and cabin crew, who have been flying out of HUY this summer and I can assure you we have done our utmost to keep the program running and keep the base open, but beancounters rule the roost!
Just for your info, I'm aware of 4 divs, all for different reasons - only 2 were for weather, which could happen anywhere. Being a Cat III airfield would not have helped in either instance as the RVR was too low even for Cat III Autoland.
Some of the flights were 70% other airlines' pax so maybe they will continue next year with their own aircraft? Who knows.
Thank you to all the non-xla staff who helped keep things on the rails for the summer.
TD
XLA have pulled out due to a "reorganigation of the business", not as far as I know due to Diversions or lack of fire cover or raising of landing fees.
Just where do you get such information? Certainly not from XLA! I work for the company, live locally, as do many crew, both pilots and cabin crew, who have been flying out of HUY this summer and I can assure you we have done our utmost to keep the program running and keep the base open, but beancounters rule the roost!
Just for your info, I'm aware of 4 divs, all for different reasons - only 2 were for weather, which could happen anywhere. Being a Cat III airfield would not have helped in either instance as the RVR was too low even for Cat III Autoland.
Some of the flights were 70% other airlines' pax so maybe they will continue next year with their own aircraft? Who knows.
Thank you to all the non-xla staff who helped keep things on the rails for the summer.
TD
Thread Starter
I think all of this CatIII talk has come from an apparent meeting between management of airline and airport, XLA wanted to know if installing CatIII was feasible. Management said no. Nothing to do with them pulling out as above.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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It has also been posted on another forum by an Excel employee that lack of cat 3/weather diversion are the reason for Excel leaving HUY
There was also an interesting letter in the Grimsby Telegraph about the diversion of last weeks Malaga flight to DSA. Apparently it was a fog diversion but the person who wrote the letter suspected it was because the airport had closed (flight was late) as there was little fog at HUY at the time
Whatever the reason is for the XLA pull out though, any word on what is hapenning next summer? Excel timetable shows HER and PMI on a Tuesday plus a one off Malaga flight
There was also an interesting letter in the Grimsby Telegraph about the diversion of last weeks Malaga flight to DSA. Apparently it was a fog diversion but the person who wrote the letter suspected it was because the airport had closed (flight was late) as there was little fog at HUY at the time
Whatever the reason is for the XLA pull out though, any word on what is hapenning next summer? Excel timetable shows HER and PMI on a Tuesday plus a one off Malaga flight
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Well Humberside watch this space with the way aviation is going at the moment some new commers will come on the odd charter scene.
With BA Connect now comming under the Flybe world, some of the weekend charter flights they operated in the summer months may be going to companies that are just building up there work force.??
With BA Connect now comming under the Flybe world, some of the weekend charter flights they operated in the summer months may be going to companies that are just building up there work force.??
Join Date: Nov 2006
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DUBLIN Route and scheduled services
I agree with comments here that B738 was too big for the DUB route. However, like the Cardiff scenario, I believe Aer Arann have looked at the possibility.
Although Ryanair was seeing too low a load factor, surely it was 50% or greater which would be around 90 pax each way. Surely if Aer Arann got half that number it would justify a daily ATR rotation. I believe this has been the experience at Cardiff about half the Ryanair volume.
In my opinion brand new routes like these need a smaller aircraft by a low fares airline. Flybe comes to mind, and in time when developed could be upgraded. What does anyone else think. I would love to see the route reinstated.
Although Ryanair was seeing too low a load factor, surely it was 50% or greater which would be around 90 pax each way. Surely if Aer Arann got half that number it would justify a daily ATR rotation. I believe this has been the experience at Cardiff about half the Ryanair volume.
In my opinion brand new routes like these need a smaller aircraft by a low fares airline. Flybe comes to mind, and in time when developed could be upgraded. What does anyone else think. I would love to see the route reinstated.
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HUY Future
Just wonder if HUY has a future as a regional? This winter it is only KLM and Eastern that are making major movements each day, a couple of 'bucket and spade' operations and that is it.
HUY keep going on and on about jam tomorrow, but in 4 years what has happened? A substantial hangar built by a private firm, the Police heliport an extension of the arrivals hall and a large car park. (must be investing for future growth)
With the greatest respect to Newquay, it is not a major business destination BUT it does have 4/5 flights to Gatwick per day and a Ryanair to Stanstead (even in winter!). HUY has not even trialled a London flight on a shared risk basis. HUY is just too risk averse to contemplate a leap in the dark.
Someone I know spoke to HUY about routing but HUY were somewhat cold as he was not a 'name', entrepeneur yes, 'name' no! He could not be bothered after that.
HUY keep going on and on about jam tomorrow, but in 4 years what has happened? A substantial hangar built by a private firm, the Police heliport an extension of the arrivals hall and a large car park. (must be investing for future growth)
With the greatest respect to Newquay, it is not a major business destination BUT it does have 4/5 flights to Gatwick per day and a Ryanair to Stanstead (even in winter!). HUY has not even trialled a London flight on a shared risk basis. HUY is just too risk averse to contemplate a leap in the dark.
Someone I know spoke to HUY about routing but HUY were somewhat cold as he was not a 'name', entrepeneur yes, 'name' no! He could not be bothered after that.
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Anyone know what is going on with that. The doors were open yesterday (yes that is newsworthy!!!) but it has been finished for over a year but not yet been taken over by any maintenance company or airline
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
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"With the greatest respect to Newquay, it is not a major business destination BUT it does have 4/5 flights to Gatwick per day and a Ryanair to Stanstead (even in winter!). HUY has not even trialled a London flight on a shared risk basis. HUY is just too risk averse to contemplate a leap in the dark."
Well, that's one risk they've done very well to avoid, a flight to LHR or LGW would be financial suicide as the operating costs would require the equivilant of at least 50 full fare paying passengers on each sector every day. As the majority of passengers on such flights are interlining to/from destinations worldwide, the airline would only get a small percentage of the fare for the HUY - London - HUY leg.
I exclude London City as it is so expensive to land and operate from there, there is not enough prospective trade from HUY to even think about an operation there.
Again, in terms of cost, Stansted has little or nothing to offer in terms of an airline operating from HUY and never will.
As for the rest, history has clearly demonstrated that the only viable schedule services from HUY are ABZ and AMS.
Low cost is a non starter owing to the bizzare attitude of the airport authority (who recognise that, even if you have to lose out on passenger taxes, increased pax numbers in the terminals means more trade for the airport shops and increased revenue for the airport company, and operate this system at EMA, BOU and MAN but not at HUY).
Sad really, HUY had so much potential and, now that DSA are on the scene, they've blown a good opportunity they'll never have again.
Well, that's one risk they've done very well to avoid, a flight to LHR or LGW would be financial suicide as the operating costs would require the equivilant of at least 50 full fare paying passengers on each sector every day. As the majority of passengers on such flights are interlining to/from destinations worldwide, the airline would only get a small percentage of the fare for the HUY - London - HUY leg.
I exclude London City as it is so expensive to land and operate from there, there is not enough prospective trade from HUY to even think about an operation there.
Again, in terms of cost, Stansted has little or nothing to offer in terms of an airline operating from HUY and never will.
As for the rest, history has clearly demonstrated that the only viable schedule services from HUY are ABZ and AMS.
Low cost is a non starter owing to the bizzare attitude of the airport authority (who recognise that, even if you have to lose out on passenger taxes, increased pax numbers in the terminals means more trade for the airport shops and increased revenue for the airport company, and operate this system at EMA, BOU and MAN but not at HUY).
Sad really, HUY had so much potential and, now that DSA are on the scene, they've blown a good opportunity they'll never have again.
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"As for the rest, history has clearly demonstrated that the only viable schedule services from HUY are ABZ and AMS."
Agreed - the catchment area is insufficient unless the size of aircraft and the frequency of the service are taken into account carefully.
"Low cost is a non starter owing to the bizzare(sic) attitude of the airport authority (who recognise that, even if you have to lose out on passenger taxes, increased pax numbers in the terminals means more trade for the airport shops and increased revenue for the airport company, and operate this system at EMA, BOU and MAN but not at HUY)."
Surely this statement is in direct confliction with the one above? Low-cost use 738's with nearly 200 seats, and then demand 75%+ load factors in order to make the services "viable". If they put one of these on every day of the week every man woman and child within 15miles radius would have to travel on it every year to make it "viable". If they simply charged more than £4.99p for a seat they would increase the "viability" - but of course that wouldn't look good in the adverts, would it?
It has been said before by others and I make no apology for saying it again: The so -called "passenger tax" does NOT go to the Airport. Approx 5-10% goes to the Airport and is the only payment the Airport receives from the Operator except (heavily discounted) fuel on the rare occasion it is needed. A percentage (I believe 10-15%) goes to the Government, but the whopping remainder goes directly to the Airline - enabling them to charge next to nothing for the seats in the full knowledge that they will get their money anyway. Couple that with the awareness that no-one is going to buy a bottle of perfume/whisky/etc when they are going on a 40minute flight to somewhere where it's cheaper anyway, and you find that the Airport makes precious little if anything out of low-cost flights. Unless, of course, there are a number of based aircraft, consequently many more flights to many different destinations, so that more shops and outlets can be franchised to cater for the greatly increased trade (Oh, but hang on, aren't we back at the start - not enough catchment?!)
An Operator with smaller aircraft and a "work with", not "work against" attitude is needed.
Agreed - the catchment area is insufficient unless the size of aircraft and the frequency of the service are taken into account carefully.
"Low cost is a non starter owing to the bizzare(sic) attitude of the airport authority (who recognise that, even if you have to lose out on passenger taxes, increased pax numbers in the terminals means more trade for the airport shops and increased revenue for the airport company, and operate this system at EMA, BOU and MAN but not at HUY)."
Surely this statement is in direct confliction with the one above? Low-cost use 738's with nearly 200 seats, and then demand 75%+ load factors in order to make the services "viable". If they put one of these on every day of the week every man woman and child within 15miles radius would have to travel on it every year to make it "viable". If they simply charged more than £4.99p for a seat they would increase the "viability" - but of course that wouldn't look good in the adverts, would it?
It has been said before by others and I make no apology for saying it again: The so -called "passenger tax" does NOT go to the Airport. Approx 5-10% goes to the Airport and is the only payment the Airport receives from the Operator except (heavily discounted) fuel on the rare occasion it is needed. A percentage (I believe 10-15%) goes to the Government, but the whopping remainder goes directly to the Airline - enabling them to charge next to nothing for the seats in the full knowledge that they will get their money anyway. Couple that with the awareness that no-one is going to buy a bottle of perfume/whisky/etc when they are going on a 40minute flight to somewhere where it's cheaper anyway, and you find that the Airport makes precious little if anything out of low-cost flights. Unless, of course, there are a number of based aircraft, consequently many more flights to many different destinations, so that more shops and outlets can be franchised to cater for the greatly increased trade (Oh, but hang on, aren't we back at the start - not enough catchment?!)
An Operator with smaller aircraft and a "work with", not "work against" attitude is needed.
Thread Starter
From an outsiders perspective the operators of HUY have rested on their laurels until it was far too late, it is dangerous for any business to do this. As Niknak says the opportunity was there pre DSA. The associated authorities obviously thought DSA would never happen and have been unwilling to leave the 'comfort zone', their strengths, charter flights and the AMS and ABZ.
MAG have the money to make the place work, bring in operators to try new routes. I feel now HUY will probably be palmed off within the next few years either back to the local councils or perhaps to Peel. I just cannot see a future for HUY as a passenger airport under its current ownership, or if the latter got hold and things could start winding down, particularly after the anouncement of XL pulling out.
Final nail in the coffin?
MAG have the money to make the place work, bring in operators to try new routes. I feel now HUY will probably be palmed off within the next few years either back to the local councils or perhaps to Peel. I just cannot see a future for HUY as a passenger airport under its current ownership, or if the latter got hold and things could start winding down, particularly after the anouncement of XL pulling out.
Final nail in the coffin?
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The local rumour is that HUY lost the Cat II status when the "new" fire station was built as it's too close to the runway and the protected area......! The figure mentioned was 2 metres too close.
Is this true? If it is, well, what a mess.
Anyone know if it's true? C'mon - some of you have been with Air UK/KLM at HUY for years and must know! SATCO - is it true?
Is this true? If it is, well, what a mess.
Anyone know if it's true? C'mon - some of you have been with Air UK/KLM at HUY for years and must know! SATCO - is it true?
Thread Starter
Rob t100, i share the same thought, i wouldnt be surprise if HUY did fall into Peels hands some time in the next few years, eradicate any competition HUY poses to DSA. If things realy are coming away at the seams i cant see the airport remaining open as it is today, you just cant rely on two scheduled services and the odd, unstable, charter service. Lo-co is the future for short haul european holidays, HUY has failed to realise this.
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If we look at the 'new' airport down the road, IMO the 'new' airport hasn't been the runaway success that that airport operator claimed it would be. As far as I am concerned all DSA has done is redistributed other Yorkshire traffic away from HUY and LBA to DSA ie. Thomsonfly 'DSA' which will be squat dead if Jet2 at Leeds has anything to do with it!
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It already has flights to Florida, Mexico, (Soon to be) Canada and Pakistan, of which none of the other airports in Yorkshire can lay claim to.
If LBA and HUY were offering the right product then why would people move their business? All three airports are doing well so theres no need to be sour/negative.