Atlas Air 747-8 inflight engine fire
I do wonder where this question originates from though - is hours of fuel simply the first box to fill on the ATC incident report form? Or has there been an incident where fuel became a problem?
For any mayday aircraft, getting on the ground ASAP safe and sound is the first priority. ATCs support should probably be aligned with that.
For any mayday aircraft, getting on the ground ASAP safe and sound is the first priority. ATCs support should probably be aligned with that.
I long for the day when ATC stops distracting crews by asking for hours of fuel. If I’m busy with an emergency, that’s the last thing I’m thinking of.
Surely there’s a table they can be provided that gives them a rough conversion to endurance. Any number I give over the radio is probably going to be an equally rough estimate.
Surely there’s a table they can be provided that gives them a rough conversion to endurance. Any number I give over the radio is probably going to be an equally rough estimate.
- What's the worst-case fire we may have to fight?
- What is the worst-case fuel spill that will need to be foamed and/or cleaned up?
- Do we have sufficient resources?
- Do we need to call off-airport fire services NOW for backup?
ATC requests fuel/passenger information primarily so that it can be forwarded to Crash Fire Rescue (CFR) personnel at the airport where an emergency landing might take place. CFR is very anxious to have this information, as it allows them to act on an informed basis regarding:
So if you are involved in an emergency, remember that ATC is asking these questions for a good reason—to be able to provide optimal Crash Fire Rescue assistance following an emergency landing.
Source: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publicatio...ck/cb_341.htm#
- How many people are to be accounted for
- How much (or little) fuel will potentially be spilled, or burning
So if you are involved in an emergency, remember that ATC is asking these questions for a good reason—to be able to provide optimal Crash Fire Rescue assistance following an emergency landing.
Source: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publicatio...ck/cb_341.htm#
No problem with that. But a phone call to the airline’s ops centre would get them that information without distracting the pilots.
To be honest, I’ve always thought the fuel/endurance question was pointless. It’s a 747. Even at min fuel it will have a few tonnes. Or a lot. If it’s all on fire, it probably doesn’t matter.
I think that the ATC controller sounded more nervous than the pilot. Endurance and/or fuel on board may become important if the weather is so poor that the flight need to be redirected or saved and ATC need a clue what alternates make sense. However direct after take of at the same airport souls on board should do, so the firecrew has an idea on how may to rescue in the worst case. The pilot asked for altimeter, wind and weather which is the most important for his pattern planning. Good comms from the pilot and a happy ending. On a Mayday aircraft with engine on fire ATC knows that the pilots are busy with checklists and trouble shooting. So questions from ATC should be kept to a minimum. Too much RT can result in distraction and shutting down the wrong engine. We had examples where that ended in pilots swim operations on a twin.
I do wonder where this question originates from though - is hours of fuel simply the first box to fill on the ATC incident report form? Or has there been an incident where fuel became a problem?
For any mayday aircraft, getting on the ground ASAP safe and sound is the first priority. ATCs support should probably be aligned with that.
For any mayday aircraft, getting on the ground ASAP safe and sound is the first priority. ATCs support should probably be aligned with that.
Absolutely correct - often it's like a 40 question form gets pulled out. Having been polite during a major event I had to tell a controller to shut up, "Standby, I'll advise, I'm busy" and he still went on. Sorry but, with respect, on most occasions there is almost nothing he/she can do to help. That's why a maday call helps so much ie you tell them politely what you are doing, you do not request permission - my comments are from world wide experience and of course don't apply to many, many controllers. Listen to the incredible ATC transcript of the 777 Heathrow crash from a few years ago - magnificent management by the controller. Just perfect.
ATC might not have that info on their 'strip' and not have time to pull up the full flight plan. Also they will be busy themselves diverting other aircraft around the Mayday flight amongst other things.
Wouldn't take PM very long to read out total fuel on board to ATC when they have a moment. Or if not; then "stand by" until they do.
C'mon, guys!
ATC is asking for your FOB so they have an idea of just how large an "improvised explosive device" you are now flying - should the worst happen.
Unless the MAYDAY is specifically a fuel emergency, ATC has no interest at all in your "endurance" - they assume that both you and they want you safely on the ground ASAP.
Commercial jets with a dispatch office are not the only aircraft in the sky. It is a standard question asked of all MAYDAY aircraft - from a C172 to a King Air to a Citation to an A380. With or without dispatch, possibly even without a filed flight plan.
It is certainly not the highest priority question, and in an ideal world, a controller will always append " ,when able" when asking for FOB and SOB. They understand (or should) "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - in that order." But it is part of their job to ask.
..........
On a more apropos note, reports of a "softball-sized" (~15cm) hole found in the wing above the failed engine.
ATC is asking for your FOB so they have an idea of just how large an "improvised explosive device" you are now flying - should the worst happen.
Unless the MAYDAY is specifically a fuel emergency, ATC has no interest at all in your "endurance" - they assume that both you and they want you safely on the ground ASAP.
Commercial jets with a dispatch office are not the only aircraft in the sky. It is a standard question asked of all MAYDAY aircraft - from a C172 to a King Air to a Citation to an A380. With or without dispatch, possibly even without a filed flight plan.
It is certainly not the highest priority question, and in an ideal world, a controller will always append " ,when able" when asking for FOB and SOB. They understand (or should) "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - in that order." But it is part of their job to ask.
..........
On a more apropos note, reports of a "softball-sized" (~15cm) hole found in the wing above the failed engine.
I think it is a bit more sensible. In normal operation RT with ATC has a high priority, because any failure will easy get you in more trouble then other errors.
In a Mayday emergency you have all hands and both brains full working to deal with the emergency. If you are additional forced to control the controller a lot of attention is redirected.
There is no need that ATC second guesses your fuel situation or other things if it will have no bearing to the outcome.
You are in a maximum stress situation, so aviate, navigate and trouble shoot will have priority to communicate. If you need help from ATC you will always ask.
In a Mayday emergency you have all hands and both brains full working to deal with the emergency. If you are additional forced to control the controller a lot of attention is redirected.
There is no need that ATC second guesses your fuel situation or other things if it will have no bearing to the outcome.
You are in a maximum stress situation, so aviate, navigate and trouble shoot will have priority to communicate. If you need help from ATC you will always ask.
AFAIK, that one resulted in the mayday fuel terminology, along with the syllabus I was part of in the 1990s that made it clear that as PIC you are to use the words mayday mayday mayday in an emergency situation. It is then incumbent on ATC to get me on the ground with minimum track miles, minimum distractions, and moving everybody else out of the way. I don't think it is (or should be) ATCs job to determine how long they can keep me in the air...
The actual amount of fuel is irrelevant for the firefighting response. My aircraft type determines the level of crash response required at the airport, and that category is determined based on many other factors, not just fuel capacity. See https://skybrary.aero/articles/rescu...hting-services
The actual amount of fuel is irrelevant for the firefighting response. My aircraft type determines the level of crash response required at the airport, and that category is determined based on many other factors, not just fuel capacity. See https://skybrary.aero/articles/rescu...hting-services
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My educated guess is that other boundary conditions of that impact site have a far greater influence on the outcome and the number of trucks being rolled is not dependent on FOB.
Unless the Mayday has dumped or leaked fuel.......
ATC might not have that info on their 'strip' and not have time to pull up the full flight plan. Also they will be busy themselves diverting other aircraft around the Mayday flight amongst other things.
Wouldn't take PM very long to read out total fuel on board to ATC when they have a moment. Or if not; then "stand by" until they do.
ATC might not have that info on their 'strip' and not have time to pull up the full flight plan. Also they will be busy themselves diverting other aircraft around the Mayday flight amongst other things.
Wouldn't take PM very long to read out total fuel on board to ATC when they have a moment. Or if not; then "stand by" until they do.
I think sometimes it's a big alligator you're wrestling and you just don't need the interruptions unless it will significantly assist you. In the example I mentioned, an engine blew climbing through 37,000 and we simultaneously depressurised rapidly so, with masks on, we were doing an engine shutdown checklist (and a few others - it was complex) whilst actioning a rapid depressurisation profile as we diverted on an ETOPS sector on the A330 which I'm sure you know well. It was also my line check with the Chief Pilot on the jump seat :-) Also had another, a fire this time, on the 330 in the climb high level which looked identical to the video of the Atlas but at night ......... less fraught than the first one so our ATC exchange was similar and it was also in a first world ATC environment.
Rgds
Last edited by Good Business Sense; 21st Jan 2024 at 06:00.
ATC deals with a lot of traffic
Something to remember is ATC is not just dealing with commercial traffic. Post # 22 provides a very good explanation of why these questions are asked. I had an emergency once in my little bug smasher, 5 on board + dog and maybe 60 gallons. Alternator failed and I was losing electric power. At the time I was on with NY Approach a few miles from Teterboro- so they had to deal with me along with all the other GA , business and heavies a few thousand feet above me. There was no dispatch for them to call, there was a flight plan on file. NJ in that area is quite rural and if I went off airport I can see why they would want to have that info for the local EMS. It was a solid VMC day, I had a handheld and motored back to home for a no flap landing.
NYC Approach as usual were great and followed me back home. Including a phone call when I was on the ground to make sure all was good.
I have listened to a few emergencies on the frequency and the controllers are alway deferential to the pilots. I've heard "later" at least once.
There really seems to be a thing on here with picking at American ATC. I flew my little machine around the NYC airspace for 8 years and always received amazing service.
NYC Approach as usual were great and followed me back home. Including a phone call when I was on the ground to make sure all was good.
I have listened to a few emergencies on the frequency and the controllers are alway deferential to the pilots. I've heard "later" at least once.
There really seems to be a thing on here with picking at American ATC. I flew my little machine around the NYC airspace for 8 years and always received amazing service.
From the FAA AIM Emergency Procedures 6-3-2-3
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...section_3.html
- If distress, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAY-DAY; if urgency, PAN-PAN, PAN-PAN, PAN-PAN.
- Name of station addressed.
- Aircraft identification and type.
- Nature of distress or urgency.
- Weather.
- Pilots intentions and request.
- Present position, and heading; or if lost, last known position, time, and heading since that position.
- Altitude or flight level.
- Fuel remaining in minutes.
- Number of people on board.
- Any other useful information.