TNFlygirl crash analysis
What bothers me is the video says that there was clear weather. I’m just a private pilot, but I’m used to going along at a steady altitude (unless there are severe updrafts and downdrafts) and only adjust the trim manually by small amounts when I expect to have to change altitude.
Then again, I’ve never focused on social media when I fly. That may have taken higher priority in this case than, “Aviate, navigate, communicate.”
Punkalouver said that the mis-trim must have been done manually, but I can’t imagine why you would intentionally would “mistrim” the plane to such a degree that you’d send it into a fatal nosedive.
Perhaps they were confused by the autopilot, and were adjusting the trim the wrong way to try to compensate for the increased variation in altitude and, consequently, airspeed.
I admit, I’ve never had to adjust the trim in an emergency, and never changed it by more than slight increments. I’ve never flown with an autopilot.
I did know a private pilot that had the cable to the trim tab break, causing them to go into a steep dive, but they managed to muscle the plane into a safe landing at the nearest airport after declaring an emergency.
Then again, I’ve never focused on social media when I fly. That may have taken higher priority in this case than, “Aviate, navigate, communicate.”
Punkalouver said that the mis-trim must have been done manually, but I can’t imagine why you would intentionally would “mistrim” the plane to such a degree that you’d send it into a fatal nosedive.
Perhaps they were confused by the autopilot, and were adjusting the trim the wrong way to try to compensate for the increased variation in altitude and, consequently, airspeed.
I admit, I’ve never had to adjust the trim in an emergency, and never changed it by more than slight increments. I’ve never flown with an autopilot.
I did know a private pilot that had the cable to the trim tab break, causing them to go into a steep dive, but they managed to muscle the plane into a safe landing at the nearest airport after declaring an emergency.
A personable attractive lady with money – what male would not be bending backwards to help her get what she wants?
I own and operate an aircraft with dual axis autopilot but no automatic pitch trim. Like the Century 2000 in the accident aircraft my system provides trim prompts to the pilot. In many, perhaps most, cases the proper response to a trim prompt is NOT to change trim but to adjust power!
Last edited by EXDAC; 15th Dec 2023 at 21:34.
Besides the fact there are some mistakes and things that could have been improved, IMHO i do not agree some comments on this YT link advocating 400 hours are quite few.
Back in the middle 90's, half of my CPL class here on EU vast lands started doing TGL's circuits on the L-1011 on the right hand seat right after finishing it with some 170 hours TT.
All of us succeeded till this very day, except me due disease needed to remain on the ground since 2012 unfortunately.
May she rest in Peace <3
Back in the middle 90's, half of my CPL class here on EU vast lands started doing TGL's circuits on the L-1011 on the right hand seat right after finishing it with some 170 hours TT.
All of us succeeded till this very day, except me due disease needed to remain on the ground since 2012 unfortunately.
May she rest in Peace <3
Agreed. 400 hours is plenty, provided they are quality hours. If you have a good grasp of basic flying principles then learning an autopilot is really just about understanding how the machine will try to do what you would be doing if hand flying and what its limitations are. If you have a solid foundation then you will be mentally flying the plane while manipulating the autopilot. On the other hand if you don’t have the basics down then turning the autopilot on becomes akin to handing control over to someone else and letting yourself become a passenger who doesn’t understand what’s going on and doesn’t know when or how to intervene.
Dudley Henriques
Anyone here actually fly with the Century 2000? My read of the Pilot's Operating Manual makes me believe that the pitch reference is continuously changed as long as the UP or DN button is pressed. That idea was dismissed in the linked accident video.
The manual discussion of the UP DN buttons, and pitch modes in general, is very sparse but does include:
"*PITCH MODIFIER SWITCHES - The pitch modifier switches are momentary push-button type, located on the right side of the Mode Programmer, used to modify the airplane’s attitude and to shift the AP from the ALT mode to the ATT mode."
I read that as - brief push changes from ALT to ATT mode with current pitch attitude being held. If the UP or DN button is held then the ATT reference continuously changes in the direction corresponding to the held button.
Was Juan Browne right that holding UP/DN does nothing because the buttons are "momentary action" or do they continuusly change the ATT mode pitch reference?
The manual discussion of the UP DN buttons, and pitch modes in general, is very sparse but does include:
"*PITCH MODIFIER SWITCHES - The pitch modifier switches are momentary push-button type, located on the right side of the Mode Programmer, used to modify the airplane’s attitude and to shift the AP from the ALT mode to the ATT mode."
I read that as - brief push changes from ALT to ATT mode with current pitch attitude being held. If the UP or DN button is held then the ATT reference continuously changes in the direction corresponding to the held button.
Was Juan Browne right that holding UP/DN does nothing because the buttons are "momentary action" or do they continuusly change the ATT mode pitch reference?
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I go with that.
Another accident that should really never have happened.
Social media seems to be a very two edged sword, on the one hand raising awareness, and teaching how to avoid accidents in the first place, on the other we have people perhaps with other motivations.
Another accident that should really never have happened.
Social media seems to be a very two edged sword, on the one hand raising awareness, and teaching how to avoid accidents in the first place, on the other we have people perhaps with other motivations.
Momentary switches typically remain closed as long as the user pushes them. This is distinguished from latching switches that stay in place, such as push-on/push-off or lever switches.
What effect a momentary switch has when held closed depends on the way it is used - if it directly controls current to a motor or light the motor or light will continue to operate. If it is something like on a keyboard or mouse, then it is up to software to determine what is going to happen. At the least the controller that attached to the switch will typically make repeated readings to see if the switch is still closed and the software running on the controller can tell by timers how long it has been closed to decide if it should auto-repeat or just register as a single push and wait. This reading rate can be a hundred thousand times a second, which would make typing a real challenge if there was no built-in delay.
A similar situation is seen in cruise/speed controls on cars. One short push (and getting read a few thousand times) typically gives a + or - of 1 mph. Hold it for more than that and the controller starts adjusting the speed until the user releases the button. I would expect the trim to be operated in this mode.
What effect a momentary switch has when held closed depends on the way it is used - if it directly controls current to a motor or light the motor or light will continue to operate. If it is something like on a keyboard or mouse, then it is up to software to determine what is going to happen. At the least the controller that attached to the switch will typically make repeated readings to see if the switch is still closed and the software running on the controller can tell by timers how long it has been closed to decide if it should auto-repeat or just register as a single push and wait. This reading rate can be a hundred thousand times a second, which would make typing a real challenge if there was no built-in delay.
A similar situation is seen in cruise/speed controls on cars. One short push (and getting read a few thousand times) typically gives a + or - of 1 mph. Hold it for more than that and the controller starts adjusting the speed until the user releases the button. I would expect the trim to be operated in this mode.
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While I am about it, let me correct your grammar for you:
How do you see the fact that some people are wearing beards is going to lead to a rise in accidents, Trossie?
Anybody who spends more time wandering about the camera angle , than the aircraft state or airmanship is a risk to me .
Sadly with the interweb intermingled with access to fantastic narcissistic outlets like YouTube the younger generation take their eye off the ball .
Its not just wannabes either - how many videos do we need of people ( not normally the instruments or runway view ) manipulating or fighting in a lot of cases their A737 bus towards the ground
Sadly with the interweb intermingled with access to fantastic narcissistic outlets like YouTube the younger generation take their eye off the ball .
Its not just wannabes either - how many videos do we need of people ( not normally the instruments or runway view ) manipulating or fighting in a lot of cases their A737 bus towards the ground
Does anyone use Microsoft Flight Simulator to familiarise themselves with a particular aircraft and avionics?
Some of the more expensive aircraft in the sim are very accurate.
Some of the more expensive aircraft in the sim are very accurate.
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A walk in European airports and you will see first hand the kind people they hire for this occupation. Wonder if they can reach the overhead panel or if it is safe to wear an oxygen mask with these beards. Adverts from EU airlines are portraying exactly that
Currently I work in ME, moving back to EU in a few months, can't believe that I will actually miss some stuff here
Currently I work in ME, moving back to EU in a few months, can't believe that I will actually miss some stuff here
When I joined ab in 2019 they still had no facial hair policy but it was changed 1 month later making it legal. In a week a lot of young pilots looked like they are homeless. I don't know why people grow pubic hair on their faces. It makes em look dirty and unprofessional. Once I saw a lady captain from **** EU airline and she was covered in tattoos, hands , neck and even something on the forehead.
I always iron my uniform and shave before going on duty. There is no better feeling than a splash of bay rum or aquavelva on a freshly shaved skin.
Apologies for the off topic. Feel very sad for the pilot and her father. Try not to forget that flying machines will kill you unless you die of natural causes.
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Msfs can help with initial IFR training if you know what you are doing. It can also be beneficial for some panel familiarization on light AC. But if you talk about expensive complex aircraft it won't be much of a help. Its all about 2d vs 3d depth illusion. I used to play a lot of 737 cl on msfs and when i finally got to seat on real 737cl sim I was lost. Overhead panel looked like a forest of toggles. And I already had thousand hours on complex aircraft that had more buttons than 737)
As my professional life has me flying a lot of types, I do sometimes use MSFS to familiarise myself with cockpits, switchology, etc. It is also probably the least worst of all the main commercial sims for performance and handling qualities but to be honest I don't usually trouble myself with that aspect. But yes, for learning your way around the controls, it can be quite useful especially if, like me, you might be flying a dozen types a year.
That said, the types where I don't have the benefits of a grown-up to check me out, usually there's no readily available sim model either. For those I usually spend hours to days on the ground teaching myself into it.
G
That said, the types where I don't have the benefits of a grown-up to check me out, usually there's no readily available sim model either. For those I usually spend hours to days on the ground teaching myself into it.
G
Menekse,
When I joined ab in 2019 they still had no facial hair policy but it was changed 1 month later making it legal. In a week a lot of young pilots looked like they are homeless. I don't know why people grow pubic hair on their faces. It makes em look dirty and unprofessional. Once I saw a lady captain from **** EU airline and she was covered in tattoos, hands , neck and even something on the forehead.
I always iron my uniform and shave before going on duty. There is no better feeling than a splash of bay rum or aquavelva on a freshly shaved skin.
Apologies for the off topic. Feel very sad for the pilot and her father. Try not to forget that flying machines will kill you unless you die of natural causes.
When I joined ab in 2019 they still had no facial hair policy but it was changed 1 month later making it legal. In a week a lot of young pilots looked like they are homeless. I don't know why people grow pubic hair on their faces. It makes em look dirty and unprofessional. Once I saw a lady captain from **** EU airline and she was covered in tattoos, hands , neck and even something on the forehead.
I always iron my uniform and shave before going on duty. There is no better feeling than a splash of bay rum or aquavelva on a freshly shaved skin.
Apologies for the off topic. Feel very sad for the pilot and her father. Try not to forget that flying machines will kill you unless you die of natural causes.
I fly a gulfstream and never saw any pilot with beard in this area of aviation, where the passengers - clients want the best and pay for it. I carry 2-3 shirts with me and sometimes I wash them in the hotel room sink when I spend much time away from base.
Some posters referred to a 2016 university study in Canada to prove the safety of beard and oxygen mask application. Why to bother, maybe it's safe to fly with flip flops, a university study maybe it proves it safe, why to wear shoes during a 10 hours cruise?
I carry 2-3 shirts with me and sometimes I wash them in the hotel room sink when I spend much time away from base.
Surely on Gulfstream daily rates you could pay the hotel laundry fee?
Surely on Gulfstream daily rates you could pay the hotel laundry fee?
Anyone here actually fly with the Century 2000? My read of the Pilot's Operating Manual makes me believe that the pitch reference is continuously changed as long as the UP or DN button is pressed. That idea was dismissed in the linked accident video.
The manual discussion of the UP DN buttons, and pitch modes in general, is very sparse but does include:
"*PITCH MODIFIER SWITCHES - The pitch modifier switches are momentary push-button type, located on the right side of the Mode Programmer, used to modify the airplane’s attitude and to shift the AP from the ALT mode to the ATT mode."
I read that as - brief push changes from ALT to ATT mode with current pitch attitude being held. If the UP or DN button is held then the ATT reference continuously changes in the direction corresponding to the held button.
Was Juan Browne right that holding UP/DN does nothing because the buttons are "momentary action" or do they continuusly change the ATT mode pitch reference?
The manual discussion of the UP DN buttons, and pitch modes in general, is very sparse but does include:
"*PITCH MODIFIER SWITCHES - The pitch modifier switches are momentary push-button type, located on the right side of the Mode Programmer, used to modify the airplane’s attitude and to shift the AP from the ALT mode to the ATT mode."
I read that as - brief push changes from ALT to ATT mode with current pitch attitude being held. If the UP or DN button is held then the ATT reference continuously changes in the direction corresponding to the held button.
Was Juan Browne right that holding UP/DN does nothing because the buttons are "momentary action" or do they continuusly change the ATT mode pitch reference?
I find it easier than organizing with the hotel and I know exactly what time will be ready, that's important when you receive a phone call to be ready for a pick up in an hour