NORAD Aircraft following Unresponsive Aircraft...
 

NORAD F-15's following TBM700.

N900KN (TBM-900) no contact
 

TBM-900 was flying from ROC to APF. And kept going. Last contact I saw on FLightradar24 from the plane was just south of Cuba near Bartolome Maso, Cuba. It was over water.

Stay tuned.

thanks for starting this thread


fuel exhaustion is nearly now. one report that it is falling now


more later

Air Force tracking unresponsive flight over the Atlantic
 

then left it to cuban airforce, the plane has overflown Cuba and is nearing Jamaica

Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker!

Sad to say it looks like pilot incapacitation.

Its still at FL250, 153kts hasn't made a turn in 2 hours they say, very sad

seems it crashed some 15 miles north of Jamaica, poor chaps...

Appears that it has. Sad.

It is owned by Buckingham Properties, and the CEO is a pilot. The company website is currently down, most likely on purpose would be my guesss.

Buckingham's website is not down - easily accessible to me. Might be slow to some as folks flock to the site because of today's news.

Could be, I only tried it once, to try more seemed a bit ghoulish to me.

when the engine quits due ot fuel exhaustion, would the autopilot remain engaged or trip off?

What happens will depend on the autopilot: power source (electric, hydraulic), mode (altitude hold, speed hold), etc.

If all electric, the AP will try to hold its settings until the battery dies or the other components stop feeding it inputs. However, if altitude has priority over airspeed, it may stall the airplane as it tries to hold altitude. OTOH, if minimum speed has priority over altitude, it might glide on course until it hits the ground.

From another Pilot's website;

Port Antonio is on the north coast, so the aircraft should be in the water.

Would this plane have had a pressurized cabin?

Yes.................................

Yes, it would, but by the looks of it, not this time. Before landing the most important words are, "lever down, three greens", now there may be other stuff like spoilers ect. When leaving ten thousand on the way up an even more important check is, "out of ten thousand for {insert cleared altitude} presurization normal". This is the last of a rash of these incidents over this side of the pond since presurized GA aircraft have become comonplace.

Coming in to MIA early this afternoon, the Interceptors could be heard on the radio telling the pilot and his wife to put their oxygen masks on.
We were coming up on Grand Bahama Island at the time.
Very sad.

BBC report says

An unresponsive private plane has crashed in the sea off Jamaica, officials on the island have said.
Major Basil Jarrett of the Jamaican Defence Force said the plane went down about 14 miles (22 kilometres) north-east of Port Antonio.
Jamaican and US Coast Guard planes and ships are on their way to the scene
The two passengers on board have been named as Larry and Jane Glazer from Rochester, New York, officials have said.
The plane, a Socata TBM-700, took off from Rochester at 08:26 (12:26 GMT) on route to Naples, Florida.
The US had scrambled two fighter jets to investigate why the plane failed to respond to air traffic control from 10:00 local time (14:00 GMT).
A North American air defence (Norad) spokesman said it was not possible for the jet fighter pilots to see inside the plane before it crashed as the windows were frosted or fogged over.
A tweet from Norad suggested the pilot or pilots could be unresponsive due to "possible hypoxia".
A spokesman said the jets were launched at 11:30 local time (15:30 GMT).
The plane was flying at an altitude of 25,000 feet southbound over the Caribbean Sea, approaching the north east point of Jamaica, when it went off radar.
Earlier, the US Federal Aviation Administration said it has co-operated with Cuba air traffic control in monitoring the plane, despite the countries not having full diplomatic relations for more than half a century

According to reports, Larry Glazer was hardly a passenger but the owner and pilot of this airplane. He also was the president of the TBM Owners Society.

Listening to the radio exchange, it appears as if he knew he had a problem and was asking for clearance to descend. To my untutored ear it sound as if ATC were not too helpful.

I disagree, it was a routine conversation, pilot asked for lower altitude because he said something was wrong, I don't recall exact words. He did not declare emergency or anything like that, controller can't read pilot's mind. In absence of clear-cut emergency controller had to coordinate with other traffic to let him descend. By the way, he had right to make emergency descend without even asking anybody for permission if he felt he was in dire situation.

Sad situation... there is a chance that by the time the pilot realised there was a pressurisation problem in the aircraft, he was already suffering the early effects of hypoxia. Had he been fully alert he might have called a pan-pan or a mayday... but sadly he did not.

I do wonder though, if the controller should have at least asked if the pilot if he wanted to declare a pan pan or mayday. It might have prompted the pilot to declare and emergency (which we know now, it was). In the minute or so of consciousness the pilot might have had left, he might have been able to set up for a decent and the controller could have got on with clearing other traffic. It does look like the controller either did not realise the seriousness of the situation, or decided to take the easy option.

May I ask where I can hear that conversation? I'd like to get a handle on the opinion of the controller being less than helpful/taking the easy option.

After listening to this audio if I were the controller I could not get any sense of urgency in this pilot's voice, not a hint of serious trouble. Controller is simultaneously handling a dozen or more aircraft, they can't possibly guess what's going aboard some aircraft. It is really not controller's job to think for a pilot, unfortunately there were many accidents because pilot failed to communicate clearly. This pilot was in command of that aircraft and as pilot in command he has legal right to deviate immediately from any assigned altitude, speed, heading, etc if he thinks the situation warrants it.

Clunckdriver,

Given that the pilot was responding normally an hour and a half after departure, it would seem any pressurization issue occurred during cruise. I doubt a check passing 10,000 feet would have identified a problem.

A few observations that may or may not be relevant to this accident.

Pressurization or no, at FL250. a functional oxygen mask should be all that is needed to stay at FL250 until ATC feels more cooperative.

But if the oxygen mask isn't working..... you might get what happened here.
A pilot not declaring an emergency followed by an unconscious pilot.

With the valve off at the tank, but pressure still in the lines, you might get what seems to be a good functional check on pre-flight.

Aviation is still very unforgiving of oversights.

@ GAPSTER the ATC com is available at: Aviation Audio Clips | LiveATC.net)

I for one, cant understand why the controller dont ask that extra question in this case. Sure he has multiple aircrafts to handle but only one that's indicating a problem. Why not ask; "What type of problem do you have?" Most ATC-staff surely should be edjucated in how hypoxia-challenged pilots really arent able to state the serverity of their situation by now? :sad:

Gapster

Pilot: 'We need to descend' - CNN.com Video

Airplane was very new . . . March 2014 Airworthiness Certification.

Here's a timeline of the flight:
Flight Track Log ? N900KN ? 05-Sep-2014 ? KROC - KAPF ? FlightAware

EDT Alt Crs
8:26:00 1,100 215 First radar return
8:46:00 28,000 199 Cruise flight
10:04:00 28,000 193 Problem indicated. Cleared to descend to FL250
10:05:00 27,000 193
10:06:00 25,000 172 Levelled off. Turning 30 degrees left
10:07:00 25,000 164 Turn complete. Course and altitude remain for the duration of flight
14:11:00 25,000 207 Last return. Heading and altitude erratic over the last 2 minutes

And a summary of the tape:
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kg...2014-1400Z.mp3

Offset Alt
0:04:17 FL280 Pilot: "We need to descend to about 180. We have an indication that is not (?) correct in the plane"
0:04:22 FL280 ATC: "Standby"
0:04:30 FL280 ATC: "Descend and Maintain FL250"
0:04:33 Pilot: "250 we need to get lower"
0:04:37 ATC: "Working on that"
0:04:52 ATC: "If you have to get down, 0KN, turn 30 degrees left"
0:04:58 Pilot: "30 left"
0:06:35 FL250 ATC: (Broken) "FL200" (Assumed it was clearance given)
0:06:42 FL250 Pilot: "FL200 0KN"
0:07:15 FL250 ATC: "Cleared direct Taylor"
0:07:30 FL250 ATC: (Repeats) "Cleared direct Taylor"
0:07:33 FL250 Pilot: "Direct Taylor 0KN"
0:08:05 FL250 ATC: "N900KN Copy that altitude 200"
0:08:10 FL250 Pilot: (Unintelligible)
0:08:37 FL250 ATC: "N900KN Descend and Maintain FL200 and cleared direct Taylor"
0:08:42 FL250 Pilot: (Slow voice - last contact) "Kilo November 900 Kilo November"
0:09:50 FL250 ATC: "Understand FL200, FL200 for 900KN"
0:10:10 FL250 ATC: "TBM, TBM, Zero Kilo November, descend and maintain FL200"
0:11:49 FL250 ATC: "Zero Kilo November, if you hear this, transmit and ident"
0:12:15 FL250 ATC: (Attempts contact through other air traffic)

And the time of useful consciousness:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_o..._consciousness

So:

- Within 2.5 minutes of reporting the problem at FL280, descending to FL250, he ceased responding to the ATC directive to descend to FL200.
- After a further 2 minutes, still at FL250, his voice was very groggy and it was the last response given.

Hypoxia is so insidious. Very sad.

And what is here to correct?? Also the last I checked such pressurized private aircraft are in operation around the world.

It was a TBM 900

If I have read this thread correctly - but I accept that I could have misread the details - it is reported that the controller instructed the pilots to remain at FL250. It seems not to have occurred to that controller that the pilots might not able to think clearly due to hyopoxia.

Surely the controller should have given a very firm instruction to descend? I have to wonder whether the controller could now conceivably face manslaughter charges?


Are air traffic controllers given any training about the effects of high altitude flying? As a young Air Force pilot in the 1960s, I had experience in a decompression chamber. That experience served me well when I some years later I had oxygen failure in a glider in mountain wave at 20,000 feet. Again I stand corrected, but I don't think today's civilian pilots who have had no previous military experience have even been near a decompression chamber

Had the controller been given adequate training for this extremely rare occurence, I would be in full agreement.

As it is, an imperfect, pragmatic system is operating. In my early Prooning days, I was shouted down for suggesting that the Tower, seeing a Wheels-up approach, did not warn the PIC and should have done.
" Not their responsibility! it's down to the PIC " the idea that ayou can take a "jobsworth" attitude and sit back and watch someone "crash and burn" is alien to me. Heck, if your best mate got infatuated with a 2-timing ripoff ratbag, you'd warn them, wouldn't you? :}
The PIC was just that....at his age and experience, in charge of a pressurised (sophisticated) Aircraft and being an authoritative buisinessman, one would have hoped his leadership skills would have allowed him to TELL ATC what he was doing....Also, of course, is the issue of Oxy management and the fact the aircraft was still in the "shakedown" phase of it's life.
Sad, preventable, IMO, both he and atc contributed to the accident. According to the transcript, he knew he had a problem and what it was....His training and recent transition to that aircraft, should have made him very aware of the hypoxia risk....it wasn't communicated to ATC.
the only consolation, is that they died peacefully. there are a lot worse ways to go. any Aviator must be aware of that.