Buying ICUS Time?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 25
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From: Australia
Buying ICUS Time?
Hello all,
I'm looking for any information regarding buying some ICUS time, preferably on a twin turbo-prop or light twin. I am an Australian with an Australian Commercial license so I think work visa's are an impossibility. I have heard of people from Australia going over and getting time flying ICUS in the states. Any info on operaters or ways of doing this, or on the legality of it all would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
I'm looking for any information regarding buying some ICUS time, preferably on a twin turbo-prop or light twin. I am an Australian with an Australian Commercial license so I think work visa's are an impossibility. I have heard of people from Australia going over and getting time flying ICUS in the states. Any info on operaters or ways of doing this, or on the legality of it all would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 231
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From: usa
Hi Purple,
I see what you mean. Check www.eaglejet.net , you will be able to buy time as an SIC on several aircrafts. I had some good feedback from this company.
By the way, i have no links with them..........
I see what you mean. Check www.eaglejet.net , you will be able to buy time as an SIC on several aircrafts. I had some good feedback from this company.
By the way, i have no links with them..........
Moderator
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 802
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From: Chicago, IL
Hi,
I have australian licenses so I understand what you are looking for with ICUS time.
There are hundreds of companies who offer the sort of time building you are looking for in the USA. Everything from Piper Seminoles to Gulfstreams.
A lot of companies like Ameriflight, ALpine AIr, Mesa, etc.. have programs where you can pay them to be the first officer on a 2 pilot crew for 6-12 months to build time. However, if you are coming into the country these days to receive flight training you want to be very careful to check the immigration requirements to receive any kind of flight training. Especially on larger aircraft.
I would recommend getting in touch with the FAA in Oklahoma City as a first stop.
The programs I have seen range from the $5000 mark upwards for a full time training program, lots of night, IFR flying.
If you have any particular companies in mind email me privately and I'll let you know what I know.
Weasil.
I have australian licenses so I understand what you are looking for with ICUS time.
There are hundreds of companies who offer the sort of time building you are looking for in the USA. Everything from Piper Seminoles to Gulfstreams.
A lot of companies like Ameriflight, ALpine AIr, Mesa, etc.. have programs where you can pay them to be the first officer on a 2 pilot crew for 6-12 months to build time. However, if you are coming into the country these days to receive flight training you want to be very careful to check the immigration requirements to receive any kind of flight training. Especially on larger aircraft.
I would recommend getting in touch with the FAA in Oklahoma City as a first stop.
The programs I have seen range from the $5000 mark upwards for a full time training program, lots of night, IFR flying.
If you have any particular companies in mind email me privately and I'll let you know what I know.
Weasil.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Argentina
Purple,
Please forgive my ignorance as to what exactly ICUS time is, but if you are looking for twin time I could suggest looking into flying in Argentina. I've been in Buenos Aires for about 2 years now and began flying again a few months ago. Last December the dollar bacame very strong and, to make a long story short, I'm paying about $40 dollars an hour for a 172. The school I go to also has a nice Baron for about $140 dollars. Just a thought!
Please forgive my ignorance as to what exactly ICUS time is, but if you are looking for twin time I could suggest looking into flying in Argentina. I've been in Buenos Aires for about 2 years now and began flying again a few months ago. Last December the dollar bacame very strong and, to make a long story short, I'm paying about $40 dollars an hour for a 172. The school I go to also has a nice Baron for about $140 dollars. Just a thought!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 408
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From: Switzerland
i wouldn't go off buying F/O time at air carriers. Why? Its illegal.
First of all, you can only log the flight time, if you are a required flight crew member. If the flight requires a F/O, then it can only be an "employee" of the company. You are only "employed" by the company, if you receive compensation. So if you are paying to fly, you are hardly employed.
If however, the flight does not require a F/O, but the company lets you ride along anyway, you can not log this as flight time, since no crew member was needed under the operations certificate.
This is how AOPA describes it in their magazine.
First of all, you can only log the flight time, if you are a required flight crew member. If the flight requires a F/O, then it can only be an "employee" of the company. You are only "employed" by the company, if you receive compensation. So if you are paying to fly, you are hardly employed.
If however, the flight does not require a F/O, but the company lets you ride along anyway, you can not log this as flight time, since no crew member was needed under the operations certificate.
This is how AOPA describes it in their magazine.
Moderator
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 802
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From: Chicago, IL
What AOPA are talking about is people logging SIC time on aircraft that do not require it or in an operation where the company's policies do not require it. This is not a good idea. There are however many programs where you can pay for training. It IS done, and will continue to be done.
I know one guy who paid $8000 to receive SIC training on a KING AIR. The companies operating certificate specifically allow them to do this. They DO NOT pay him as an employee.
I also know another guy who made arrangements through his foreign flight school to do this with Ameriflight. He paid them a large sum of money and worked as a first officer flying night cargo. The company paid one guy to be there to act as PIC while he got to log the legs which he was actually flying. No logging of SIC took place, some legs he got to sit and watch and other legs he got to actually manipulate the controls and then he logged the time not the captain. This was on a BE-99 which does NOT require two pilots.
I say again, It is done, regardless of what AOPA tell you.
I know one guy who paid $8000 to receive SIC training on a KING AIR. The companies operating certificate specifically allow them to do this. They DO NOT pay him as an employee.
I also know another guy who made arrangements through his foreign flight school to do this with Ameriflight. He paid them a large sum of money and worked as a first officer flying night cargo. The company paid one guy to be there to act as PIC while he got to log the legs which he was actually flying. No logging of SIC took place, some legs he got to sit and watch and other legs he got to actually manipulate the controls and then he logged the time not the captain. This was on a BE-99 which does NOT require two pilots.
I say again, It is done, regardless of what AOPA tell you.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 198
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From: S51 30 W060 10.
Flying in Argentina
I support what Argeviver said about flying in Argentina. Rates are very inexpensive, and some schools have really nice airplanes. The place is beautiful and their people are warm and friendly.
Cheers,
SW
Cheers,
SW
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 896
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From: US
Anohter example
I flew part-time relief f/w for a hospital in N. California a few years ago. The DO allowed time-building pilots (mostly European) to become hospital "volunteers," complete with ID cards.
These volunteer pilots (interns essentially) would fly with us. On the empty (no patient) legs, the PIC could allow them to fly, make approaches, land, etc. They could log this time as PIC (ICUS). On the patient on-board legs, they would log time as SIC.
The DO had the Operations Specifications/Ops Manual modified to allow SIC's, as the aircraft were Cessna 421/425. The FAA has a very liberal definition of "employee." One does not have to be on the payroll to qualify.
These volunteers actually received all of their meals for free in the hospital cafeteria because of their "volunteer" status.
They had to provide their own lodging/transportation. I do not remember what type of visas they had, but they were not employed as far as INS purposes were concerned.
These volunteer pilots (interns essentially) would fly with us. On the empty (no patient) legs, the PIC could allow them to fly, make approaches, land, etc. They could log this time as PIC (ICUS). On the patient on-board legs, they would log time as SIC.
The DO had the Operations Specifications/Ops Manual modified to allow SIC's, as the aircraft were Cessna 421/425. The FAA has a very liberal definition of "employee." One does not have to be on the payroll to qualify.
These volunteers actually received all of their meals for free in the hospital cafeteria because of their "volunteer" status.
They had to provide their own lodging/transportation. I do not remember what type of visas they had, but they were not employed as far as INS purposes were concerned.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 518
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From: Chicago, IL, USA
In the US it's called Pay For Training
In the US it's called PFT. It's very controversial.
I'm sympathetic to out-of-work pilots in a tough job market, but the only effect of pilots paying for their training is to continually depress the already subterranean wage level.
This is good for no one.
I'll say one more thing and then I'll be finished: Professional pilots do not "volunteer" their skill and experitise.
If you're already employed and you volunteer your time to a non-profit organization, that's one thing. If you give away your time to somebody that's making money for himself, that's quite another.
Peace.
I'm sympathetic to out-of-work pilots in a tough job market, but the only effect of pilots paying for their training is to continually depress the already subterranean wage level.
This is good for no one.
I'll say one more thing and then I'll be finished: Professional pilots do not "volunteer" their skill and experitise.
If you're already employed and you volunteer your time to a non-profit organization, that's one thing. If you give away your time to somebody that's making money for himself, that's quite another.
Peace.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
From: US
Clarification
Zerozero, read my posting a little closer. The non-profit hospital was being very generous in allowing low-time pilots build experience. They (the student pilots) did not pay for the time, and as I mentioned, the hospital even provided free meals during their time there.
The aircraft do not require two pilots (Cessna 421 and 425). The Ops Specs were modified to allow a second crew member, but did not require it. This allowed the student to log SIC time on the FAR 135 legs (with patient on board).
The cost to the time builder? Zero, nada, niente, zip.
So what is your beef? What does this arrangement have to do with not being a professional?
The aircraft do not require two pilots (Cessna 421 and 425). The Ops Specs were modified to allow a second crew member, but did not require it. This allowed the student to log SIC time on the FAR 135 legs (with patient on board).
The cost to the time builder? Zero, nada, niente, zip.
So what is your beef? What does this arrangement have to do with not being a professional?
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 518
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Ho capito
Check 6--Buon capodanno amico.
I agree, in the example you mentioned the non-profit organization was indeed very generous with the free lunches, etc.
I just don't want young pilots getting the idea that it's *normal* or *de rigueur* to volunteer their time in order to build hours.
Most airlines, especially the bottom-feeders, would just giggle themselves to sleep everynight to have pilots volunteer their time.
My only point is that a true professional has made an investment in his training and so his time becomes a valuable commodity. Every professional deserves to be compensated for his valuable time.
That's my only point.
Pilots volunteering their free time is a separate subject, I agree. Perhaps I over-reacted.
Mi dispiace. Nonostante possiamo essere amici?
I agree, in the example you mentioned the non-profit organization was indeed very generous with the free lunches, etc.
I just don't want young pilots getting the idea that it's *normal* or *de rigueur* to volunteer their time in order to build hours.
Most airlines, especially the bottom-feeders, would just giggle themselves to sleep everynight to have pilots volunteer their time.
My only point is that a true professional has made an investment in his training and so his time becomes a valuable commodity. Every professional deserves to be compensated for his valuable time.
That's my only point.
Pilots volunteering their free time is a separate subject, I agree. Perhaps I over-reacted.
Mi dispiace. Nonostante possiamo essere amici?
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 896
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From: US
Zerozero, anche a lei amico mio. Non ce problemi qui.
Volando per libero non è professionale nella maggior parte dei esempi.
Ciao, sempre volare sicuro,
A translation so as not to be rude to our other readers:
Also to you my friend (regarding Happy New Year). No problems here.
Flying for free is not professional in the majority of examples.
Bye, always fly safely,
Volando per libero non è professionale nella maggior parte dei esempi.
Ciao, sempre volare sicuro,
A translation so as not to be rude to our other readers:
Also to you my friend (regarding Happy New Year). No problems here.
Flying for free is not professional in the majority of examples.
Bye, always fly safely,
