Flight Schools - How normal is this?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2024
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From: Los Angeles
Flight Schools - How normal is this?
Hey everyone,
Keeping this anonymous for extremely obvious reasons, but recently, the new Chief at my flight school has been making me extremely concerned, and I'm trying to determine what's normal for this industry with all its big personalities and what's abnormal here. Basically, here's some of this Chief is doing that's worrying me:
-Making lessons go flying in convective SIGMETs and reprimanding instructors when they resist
-Bragging about their prior history of being in jail (for DV I believe)
-Sexually propositioning me to jump the waitlist for my multi-rating
-Prioritizing the hiring of instructors who they want to sleep with, primarily young 19-20 year olds who have little prior work experience.
-Excessive drinking OUTSIDE of school, but enough for me to think they're an alcoholic and they habitually drive (not fly) drunk (but again, not at school).
-Focusing their time/ attention/ lessons on students they want to have sex with (and have outright vocalized this).
-Students state that they're physically afraid of them
Currently, a lot of the rank-and-file instructors were hired under the old management, who focused on quality. They're fantastic and they always go to bat for us against management. But now, I'm getting scared that as those old CFIs get their hours and leave, they'll be replaced by the new ones hired by the new Chief that don't really stand up to them. It's for these reasons that I feel safe finishing up my ratings at this school for now, but I'm becoming less and less sure that I want to work there as a CFI with each passing day.
The deal with this Chief is that they're great at maximizing profits for the owner, so as long as that's going on, I don't believe the owner will be inclined to change things. The school is transitioning currently from mom-and-pop operation to full-blown pilot mill.
So this is basically my question - how common is this with flight schools? If I get a CFI job with another school, is it highly likely I'll encounter the same type of person in leadership? Or, is this more of an abnormal situation and I should get the hell away from this place as soon as I get my ratings? Since I'm still pretty new to aviation, I just don't know what the norm is.
Sorry if this sounds stupid. I appreciate any thoughts on this.
Keeping this anonymous for extremely obvious reasons, but recently, the new Chief at my flight school has been making me extremely concerned, and I'm trying to determine what's normal for this industry with all its big personalities and what's abnormal here. Basically, here's some of this Chief is doing that's worrying me:
-Making lessons go flying in convective SIGMETs and reprimanding instructors when they resist
-Bragging about their prior history of being in jail (for DV I believe)
-Sexually propositioning me to jump the waitlist for my multi-rating
-Prioritizing the hiring of instructors who they want to sleep with, primarily young 19-20 year olds who have little prior work experience.
-Excessive drinking OUTSIDE of school, but enough for me to think they're an alcoholic and they habitually drive (not fly) drunk (but again, not at school).
-Focusing their time/ attention/ lessons on students they want to have sex with (and have outright vocalized this).
-Students state that they're physically afraid of them
Currently, a lot of the rank-and-file instructors were hired under the old management, who focused on quality. They're fantastic and they always go to bat for us against management. But now, I'm getting scared that as those old CFIs get their hours and leave, they'll be replaced by the new ones hired by the new Chief that don't really stand up to them. It's for these reasons that I feel safe finishing up my ratings at this school for now, but I'm becoming less and less sure that I want to work there as a CFI with each passing day.
The deal with this Chief is that they're great at maximizing profits for the owner, so as long as that's going on, I don't believe the owner will be inclined to change things. The school is transitioning currently from mom-and-pop operation to full-blown pilot mill.
So this is basically my question - how common is this with flight schools? If I get a CFI job with another school, is it highly likely I'll encounter the same type of person in leadership? Or, is this more of an abnormal situation and I should get the hell away from this place as soon as I get my ratings? Since I'm still pretty new to aviation, I just don't know what the norm is.
Sorry if this sounds stupid. I appreciate any thoughts on this.
Joined: Feb 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,689
Likes: 118
From: USA
If what you describe is even remotely accurate, it's not normal. There's no reason you should put up with such an environment.
There are lots of flight schools...go find another one immediately.
There are lots of flight schools...go find another one immediately.
Joined: Feb 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,689
Likes: 118
From: USA
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2024
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
bafanguy I have my IR EOC flight tomorrow. After that, I'm done there.
Just a few more things that have happened since I last posted:
-I had my IR EOC ground and was told that I did an excellent job and really knew my stuff, but was unsat because I got one question wrong (my friends told me the same Chief asked them this question previously, and they weren't unsat on it when they got it wrong; furthermore, my friend took her IR check ride the day before me (with a different person) and passed, and said that she wasn't asked anything nearly as complicated as I was). They failed everyone who took their IR EOC ground for similarly small things on that same day I tested. My instructor was livid about it (thought that they shouldn't have unsat me) and confronted the chief, and was told that I "knew my ****" but they couldn't pass me over that one thing. He was even more pissed off when, on my retest, they nearly unsat me again on a question that none of my friends (who are way more knowledgeable than me) in commercial could answer (his response to when they found out I was asked that was "what the ****, why would they do that?). I later learned he was told off by our Chief because I struggled with said question.
-I'm now convinced our Chief has flown intoxicated at some points. Our VP of Ops (who's fully aware of all of this and is close friends with this Chief) joked about how this Chief basically "binge drank" his entire journey through his ratings.
-I'm now semi-regularly being sexually harassed by our VP of Ops, enough to the point where I no longer feel comfortable having a conversation with them alone in their office.
This is a part 141 operation and I'm going to change over to a Part 61. We have an extremely low pass rate on our commercial check rides, and it's enough to the point where now the FAA is getting involved. Everything is crazy rushed, and no one really has a chance to learn how to "feel the plane." It's basically assumed at the school that people are going to fail the P-180 on their check rides. I don't want any part of this.
Is flight school supposed to be so unpleasant? A significant portion of the school (even those who are clearing their PPLs in under 50 hours) are absolutely miserable. CFIs are grossly underpaid (about 45% below the local industry average) and are choosing to simply quit without having any other jobs lined up. One CFI had to choose between paying rent or getting his car fixed. No one I've talked to has described learning to fly here as "fun."
A friend recently warned me "you obviously like flying, but this school is a nightmare. Get out before it fully spoils aviation for you."
Just a few more things that have happened since I last posted:
-I had my IR EOC ground and was told that I did an excellent job and really knew my stuff, but was unsat because I got one question wrong (my friends told me the same Chief asked them this question previously, and they weren't unsat on it when they got it wrong; furthermore, my friend took her IR check ride the day before me (with a different person) and passed, and said that she wasn't asked anything nearly as complicated as I was). They failed everyone who took their IR EOC ground for similarly small things on that same day I tested. My instructor was livid about it (thought that they shouldn't have unsat me) and confronted the chief, and was told that I "knew my ****" but they couldn't pass me over that one thing. He was even more pissed off when, on my retest, they nearly unsat me again on a question that none of my friends (who are way more knowledgeable than me) in commercial could answer (his response to when they found out I was asked that was "what the ****, why would they do that?). I later learned he was told off by our Chief because I struggled with said question.
-I'm now convinced our Chief has flown intoxicated at some points. Our VP of Ops (who's fully aware of all of this and is close friends with this Chief) joked about how this Chief basically "binge drank" his entire journey through his ratings.
-I'm now semi-regularly being sexually harassed by our VP of Ops, enough to the point where I no longer feel comfortable having a conversation with them alone in their office.
This is a part 141 operation and I'm going to change over to a Part 61. We have an extremely low pass rate on our commercial check rides, and it's enough to the point where now the FAA is getting involved. Everything is crazy rushed, and no one really has a chance to learn how to "feel the plane." It's basically assumed at the school that people are going to fail the P-180 on their check rides. I don't want any part of this.
Is flight school supposed to be so unpleasant? A significant portion of the school (even those who are clearing their PPLs in under 50 hours) are absolutely miserable. CFIs are grossly underpaid (about 45% below the local industry average) and are choosing to simply quit without having any other jobs lined up. One CFI had to choose between paying rent or getting his car fixed. No one I've talked to has described learning to fly here as "fun."
A friend recently warned me "you obviously like flying, but this school is a nightmare. Get out before it fully spoils aviation for you."
Joined: Feb 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,689
Likes: 118
From: USA
No, flight school is NOT supposed to be this unpleasant. I can't identify with anything you have described.
I hope these negative testing episodes with this school won't follow you for a career through the Pilot Records Database (PRD). If so, you have been done a terrible disservice if what you describe is accurate.
I don't know what an EOC IR is.
I hope these negative testing episodes with this school won't follow you for a career through the Pilot Records Database (PRD). If so, you have been done a terrible disservice if what you describe is accurate.
I don't know what an EOC IR is.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,765
Likes: 424
From: GA, USA
Its irrelevant as you need to leave ASAP abut this
is not necessarily unsafe but needs to be looked at in context.
A convective SIGMET is issued if a certain set of conditions exist in a certain geographical area. Depending on the conditions (isolated Mega cell or embedded multiples) and which way they are moving it may or may not be perfectly safe to fly.
All of my instructional experience is in Florida and you pretty much always fly with a SIGMET during the summer time.
However all that is irrelevant as you need to leave for all the other reasons.
If you feel comfortable tell the owner why you’re leaving.
File a complaint with the FAA also.
Making lessons go flying in convective SIGMETs and reprimanding instructors when they resist
A convective SIGMET is issued if a certain set of conditions exist in a certain geographical area. Depending on the conditions (isolated Mega cell or embedded multiples) and which way they are moving it may or may not be perfectly safe to fly.
All of my instructional experience is in Florida and you pretty much always fly with a SIGMET during the summer time.
However all that is irrelevant as you need to leave for all the other reasons.
If you feel comfortable tell the owner why you’re leaving.
File a complaint with the FAA also.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,765
Likes: 424
From: GA, USA
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2024
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
Because it's an EOC, I don't think it goes on my PRD. However, when I interview for an airline, I believe I'll have to disclose it. I won't say anything bad about the school, I'll just say that the experience taught me the importance of studying harder and not doubting myself.
Regarding the question, my instructor told me that any airline interview committee will likely laugh at the fact that I was failed over that one question (since he thought it seemed so petty).
Regarding the question, my instructor told me that any airline interview committee will likely laugh at the fact that I was failed over that one question (since he thought it seemed so petty).
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2024
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
We had tornado sirens going off one morning and a significant amount of the city lost its power. This was in the middle of a tornado outbreak. This Chief allegedly did a stage check ground with a student as the sirens were going off, and as soon as they deactivated, he made him fly.
A friend of mine was told to fly by him in similarly bad weather conditions. His response was "unless the Earth is on fire, you're getting in that plane."
A friend of mine was told to fly by him in similarly bad weather conditions. His response was "unless the Earth is on fire, you're getting in that plane."
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 142
Likes: 90
From: Depends
I call bull****!
You are being complicit in this clearly illegal activity as you describe it by keeping it anonymous, and hiding it as you progress your career.
Take it to the authorities, not here. Pronto! The news media would have a field day with it.
Name and shame.
Pprune ain't Reddit.
You are being complicit in this clearly illegal activity as you describe it by keeping it anonymous, and hiding it as you progress your career.
Take it to the authorities, not here. Pronto! The news media would have a field day with it.
Name and shame.
Pprune ain't Reddit.
