Too hot to fly?
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: US
How could they do that? It is not like their affiliates have fleets of different types of aircraft sitting around on the tarmac that they can pick and choose from.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: La Belle Province
Although the news stories (such as BBC) talked, in effect, about performance limits, the issue is almost certainly the certified operational temperature envelope, which really speaks to systems qualification, not a/c or system capability as such.
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From: Waharoa, New Zealand
Joined: Aug 2001
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
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From: se england
Back in the eighties when I was working on that side of the world we were told an urgently needed spare part for a satellite ground station couldnt be delivered as promised because the part was made in Az and the aircraft it was on could not be pushed back from a freight stand because the tarmac was too soft in the heatwave they were having.
never really did find out if it was true or an innovative excuse from the shipper, it certainly was reportedly extremely hot there though.
This thread has made the mainstream news of course with the idea that planes cannot fly when its hot when the truth of course is more along the lines of Network Rails expanding rails when the trains have to run slower.
never really did find out if it was true or an innovative excuse from the shipper, it certainly was reportedly extremely hot there though.
This thread has made the mainstream news of course with the idea that planes cannot fly when its hot when the truth of course is more along the lines of Network Rails expanding rails when the trains have to run slower.
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Botswana
Joined: Apr 2013
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From: At home
This thread started with a news story about an internal memo on PHX hot weather operations.
The pertinent section of that memo is:
Oh yeah, it’s hot hot hot
PHX is expected to see high temperatures range from 116 to 119 degrees through Wednesday, which will impact our operations. Our regional partners Mesa and SkyWest won’t be able to operate their aircraft once the temperature reaches 118 degrees, and our mainline aircraft may be weight restricted. If you plan to non-rev via PHX during this time period, be prepared with alternate travel plans, or connect via a different hub if possible. To those of you dealing with the heat, stay safe, stay cool, stay hydrated and thanks for continuing to take care of our customers and each other.
The particulars, confirmed by my F/O a former CRJ driver, is that Canadair did not certify the CRJ family at temperatures above 117 degrees F. When it gets above that the aircraft are outside the certification limits, and parked until the temperature drops inside certification limits. The Airbus and Boeing's can still operate, but obviously they don't lift as much weight at those temperatures.
As to the Airline anticipating this condition, they have and Doug Parker does everything on a cost analysis basis. He needs and wants more RJ's on thinner routes out of PHX. There is this heat limitation and Doug will look at the analysis of temperature outside the limits vs. the cost of operating larger mainline aircraft on that route. He will accept that for a few days out of the year, in the afternoons only, he may not be able to operate and may have to delay flights until the evening.
It is simply a cost benefit analysis and the analysis goes to more RJ's despite the limitations.
The pertinent section of that memo is:
Oh yeah, it’s hot hot hot
PHX is expected to see high temperatures range from 116 to 119 degrees through Wednesday, which will impact our operations. Our regional partners Mesa and SkyWest won’t be able to operate their aircraft once the temperature reaches 118 degrees, and our mainline aircraft may be weight restricted. If you plan to non-rev via PHX during this time period, be prepared with alternate travel plans, or connect via a different hub if possible. To those of you dealing with the heat, stay safe, stay cool, stay hydrated and thanks for continuing to take care of our customers and each other.
The particulars, confirmed by my F/O a former CRJ driver, is that Canadair did not certify the CRJ family at temperatures above 117 degrees F. When it gets above that the aircraft are outside the certification limits, and parked until the temperature drops inside certification limits. The Airbus and Boeing's can still operate, but obviously they don't lift as much weight at those temperatures.
As to the Airline anticipating this condition, they have and Doug Parker does everything on a cost analysis basis. He needs and wants more RJ's on thinner routes out of PHX. There is this heat limitation and Doug will look at the analysis of temperature outside the limits vs. the cost of operating larger mainline aircraft on that route. He will accept that for a few days out of the year, in the afternoons only, he may not be able to operate and may have to delay flights until the evening.
It is simply a cost benefit analysis and the analysis goes to more RJ's despite the limitations.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Denver
@Marc in CA et al: The cancelled flights are "American Eagle" regional flights, operated by Mesa Airlines, which uses only CRJ regional jets and thus has no other type to substitute.
American can't be pulling larger jets out of their own schedule to cover for the contractor.
Mesa Airlines US Airways Express / American Eagle Airline Information
I doubt soft asphalt plays any role - KPHX is all concrete, so far as the airline ramps, taxiways, and runways are concerned.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Florida
AA might have been able to chose a different aircraft to operate out of Phoenix that day.
One that has a higher max. operating temperature.
One that has a higher max. operating temperature.
I would expect that an airline the size of AA would have to be able to anticipate this weeks in advance in order to adjust schedules so only fresh engines out of the shop flew into and out of PHX that day.
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From: Texas
Airlines are required to do performance calculations before each takeoff. One of the items used in the calculations is air temperature. If the current temperature is beyond the range of temperatures in the performance database you can't get the required performance data and therefore can not takeoff.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Florida
Let's break it down.
Airlines are required to do performance calculations before each takeoff. One of the items used in the calculations is air temperature. If the current temperature is beyond the range of temperatures in the performance database you can't get the required performance data and therefore can not takeoff.
Airlines are required to do performance calculations before each takeoff. One of the items used in the calculations is air temperature. If the current temperature is beyond the range of temperatures in the performance database you can't get the required performance data and therefore can not takeoff.
I have no problem with them sitting on the ground so I was just explaining the difficulty of scheduling a more tolerant machine.
Joined: Jun 2017
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From: Mountain View, CA
difference between certification and performance
The problem isn't performance per se, it's having the data to quantify the performance. If your take-off performance data tops out at 50ºC / 122ºF (as ours does) then you can't go flying when the temps are hotter than that. If it tops out at 45ºC, then that's your limit.
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From: Everett, WA
True, but not all engines are equal after they have been in service so you have to assume a limitation that covers these variations.
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Here and there
Is it not likely that the take-off performance data tops out where it does because that's the limit that the aircraft can operate with a reasonable payload? Although not impossible, wouldn't a manufacture be silly to build an aircraft for ISA+45ºC and only certify it to ISA+35º.
I fly a BAe146, certified for ISA+35, and there is nothing particularly limiting about the 50º line in the performance charts for a descent sized runway (>2000 m).
