FAA Flight time limitations
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: UK
FAA Flight time limitations
Please can anyone advise me how I can get a copy of the FAA flight time limitations. The same sort of thing we have with CAP371.
I have tried searching the FAA website and none the wiser.
Any help would be great either a copy sent to me or a website link so I can down load.
Thanks
I have tried searching the FAA website and none the wiser.
Any help would be great either a copy sent to me or a website link so I can down load.
Thanks
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,896
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From: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,896
Likes: 1
From: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
>>Is this what most of the US carriers use??? or is their another version?
Well, in practice, most U.S. carriers will have more restrictive duty limitations in their union contracts. Sometimes contractual duty limits will vary with local report report time. Also, in case of weather and mechanical delays, most contracts allow an extension of duty within FAA limits. Several major accidents over the years, e.g. Pan Am and KLM at Tenerife and American at Little Rock, have raised issues concerning fatigue and extension of duty limits.
Well, in practice, most U.S. carriers will have more restrictive duty limitations in their union contracts. Sometimes contractual duty limits will vary with local report report time. Also, in case of weather and mechanical delays, most contracts allow an extension of duty within FAA limits. Several major accidents over the years, e.g. Pan Am and KLM at Tenerife and American at Little Rock, have raised issues concerning fatigue and extension of duty limits.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: UK
Thanks. I just need to now the basic rules from a scheduling system point of view, I understand that their may be union rules etc as most airlines in Europe have them.
Thanks for you help in this matter
Thanks for you help in this matter
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: USA
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: phoenix, AZ, USA
I don't know about the big 6 carriers here in the States but we have just a few duty restrictions in our hours of service section of our contract.
We base max duty (report to release) on when you check in for your trip. If you check in (report for duty) at 10pm PHX time then you can only work 10 duty hours. If you check earlier you can work from 12 to 13.5 hours, again based on check in. We limit the back side of the clock duty because we have so much of it. We have an extensive night operation and we have worked hard to limit the company's ability to totally screw with our body clocks.
We do have an extension to 14 hours for wx delays or mx delays but you can refuse due to fatigue. We also do not allow a crew to make another takeoff after they have been up all night flying (we do have 24 hour flip flops, though).
We fly the max hours allowed by the FARs but in practical terms the only limit you ever really hit is the 30 hours in 7 days. I am always interested in hearing how limits are applied outside of the States. It seems that we have more restrictions here which is not what I would have expected, given the strong unions in Europe.
We base max duty (report to release) on when you check in for your trip. If you check in (report for duty) at 10pm PHX time then you can only work 10 duty hours. If you check earlier you can work from 12 to 13.5 hours, again based on check in. We limit the back side of the clock duty because we have so much of it. We have an extensive night operation and we have worked hard to limit the company's ability to totally screw with our body clocks.
We do have an extension to 14 hours for wx delays or mx delays but you can refuse due to fatigue. We also do not allow a crew to make another takeoff after they have been up all night flying (we do have 24 hour flip flops, though).
We fly the max hours allowed by the FARs but in practical terms the only limit you ever really hit is the 30 hours in 7 days. I am always interested in hearing how limits are applied outside of the States. It seems that we have more restrictions here which is not what I would have expected, given the strong unions in Europe.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,598
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From: Down south, USA.
Airbubba: True, but the US public is totally unaware of the first accident which motivated the NTSB to stand up to the FAA and declare fatigue as the primary cause, based on what I've read.
It was the all-night duty period following little daytime rest for a Connie Kalitta DC-8 freighter's three-member crew (or a subsidiary?) whose plane cartwheeled in a nightmarish ending after the reportedly tricky close turn in to final approach at NAS Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Is it strange, that a freighter accident resulted in the the description of fatigue as the primary cause? Or easier, because all parties knew that the public has no interest in freight flying? In Little Rock, had it been a freighter aircraft, crews on multiple standby duty periods would STILL have NO pre-designated 8-hour period, in each consecutive 24-hour block, when their employer can not expect the telephone to be answered.
"Lemme see, should I take a long nap in the afternoon or wait until night...?".
The tombstone agency, our FAA, needs either bloody, burned or smashed bodies (but not crewmembers!- only paying/revenue passengers) before it will help crews begin to work under more reasonable regulations, as always. Crewmembers are merely looked upon as unwashed, illegal aliens lurking in seedy locales-machines like "the Terminator", who need no real rest.
It was the all-night duty period following little daytime rest for a Connie Kalitta DC-8 freighter's three-member crew (or a subsidiary?) whose plane cartwheeled in a nightmarish ending after the reportedly tricky close turn in to final approach at NAS Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Is it strange, that a freighter accident resulted in the the description of fatigue as the primary cause? Or easier, because all parties knew that the public has no interest in freight flying? In Little Rock, had it been a freighter aircraft, crews on multiple standby duty periods would STILL have NO pre-designated 8-hour period, in each consecutive 24-hour block, when their employer can not expect the telephone to be answered.
"Lemme see, should I take a long nap in the afternoon or wait until night...?".
The tombstone agency, our FAA, needs either bloody, burned or smashed bodies (but not crewmembers!- only paying/revenue passengers) before it will help crews begin to work under more reasonable regulations, as always. Crewmembers are merely looked upon as unwashed, illegal aliens lurking in seedy locales-machines like "the Terminator", who need no real rest.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: In da north country
If you read carefully in those regs, you will notice 3 different sets of rules. Sub parts Q, F, S.
I have always flown under subpart S which deals with supplemental flying. I.E. Non-scheduled operations, even though we have scheduled flying. We are not subjected to the domestic rules when operating outside the 48 contiguous United States.
That means International rules and that means NO duty time, I say again, NO duty time!! We can't be scheduled for more than 12 hours of revunue flying in a 24 hour period, but if we break it, we get 16 hours off, maybe 18. So, lets say the company wants you to fly 12 hours revenue and then ferry it back the same 12 hours right away, its perfectly legal. Safe, hell no, but legal, yes!
We cannot be scheduled more than 20 hours flying in a 48 hour period, or exceed 24 in 72, but if we exceed it, we get 18 hours off. Thats revenue flying! remember, part 91 ferries are legal.
These rules are why the unions have had to step in and take action! Fed EX pilots union has implemented many of the same duty and flight time restrictions as the EU. They have the power to do so because they have some real barganing power with their company. Many small operators don't have the same bargaining as the big companies.
In a rolling 30 day period; can't exceed 100 hours domestic, 120 intl. Can't exceed 300 hours in 90 days, or 1000 hours in a calender year!
I have always flown under subpart S which deals with supplemental flying. I.E. Non-scheduled operations, even though we have scheduled flying. We are not subjected to the domestic rules when operating outside the 48 contiguous United States.
That means International rules and that means NO duty time, I say again, NO duty time!! We can't be scheduled for more than 12 hours of revunue flying in a 24 hour period, but if we break it, we get 16 hours off, maybe 18. So, lets say the company wants you to fly 12 hours revenue and then ferry it back the same 12 hours right away, its perfectly legal. Safe, hell no, but legal, yes!
We cannot be scheduled more than 20 hours flying in a 48 hour period, or exceed 24 in 72, but if we exceed it, we get 18 hours off. Thats revenue flying! remember, part 91 ferries are legal.
These rules are why the unions have had to step in and take action! Fed EX pilots union has implemented many of the same duty and flight time restrictions as the EU. They have the power to do so because they have some real barganing power with their company. Many small operators don't have the same bargaining as the big companies.
In a rolling 30 day period; can't exceed 100 hours domestic, 120 intl. Can't exceed 300 hours in 90 days, or 1000 hours in a calender year!
