Swiss Discrimination
 

This is the last chapter of the SWISS drama :

The ex-crossair union agreed with the managment to stop the implementation of the court veredict about ex-crossair pilots being dicriminated in the "new" :rolleyes: swiss carrier.

In return the union accepted money compensation as follows :

Capts : CHF 140.000 (about 84.000 euros)

F.O.'s : CHF 85.000 (about 51.000 euros)

Foreign pilots (not swiss or E.U. citizens),all of them Capts. :
CHF 50.000 (about 30.000 euros) :mad:

So is not surprising that the union gave up the discrimination case ,as they agreed to discriminate their own members.

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: .........................................................

Money talks my friend.

The problem is not that the problem was solved with money ,the problem is the discrimination against the foreign captains (140.000 vs 50.000 CHF ) :*

How long do you think they will be operational anyway? So who cares what they are making... :8

It seems to me that the problem was solved with money.
The union sold its foreing members out by accepting a lesser deal for them. The locals are happy enough though, not forgetting that a lot of ppl have lost their jobs here.
What can the foreign cpt do? Nada
Like a previous poster said "money talks"

Full release from Swiss

SWISS reaches agreement with the pilots´ unions

SWISS and the SWISS PILOTS union (SPA) have set aside their
differences. In an agreement signed by both sides, the SPA waives rights to the implementation of the Arbitration Court ruling and withdraws from all outstanding legal proceedings. In addition, the SPA accepts the dismissal of 559 of its pilots. In return, SWISS agrees to make a one-time payment to all pilots declared redundant. The three charter aircraft will, in future, be operated by the former
Crossair pilots (OC 1). SWISS also withdraws its plans for the legal
establishment of its subsidiary SWISS Express.

In a constructive atmosphere, Aeropers and SWISS agreed on the
measures and the implementation of the restructuring programme. The
union, which was not involved in the Arbitration Court proceedings,
was able to reconcile itself with the effects of the SPA agreement.

Agreement with the two pilots' unions is an exceptionally important
prerequisite if the previously announced SWISS restructuring
programme is to be achieved.

After long and intensive negotiations, Swiss and the SWISS Pilots
union agreed on an amiable out of Court settlement.

The agreement is an essential condition which will enable the company
to successfully carry out the restructuring. It brings advantages
both for the departing SPA pilots and those who will remain.

The compensation for the 559 pilots in the regional fleet who will be
obliged to leave will amount to CHF 85,000 for a co-pilot and CHF
140,000 for a Captain.

The charter flights were originally operated by the former Crossair
pilots (OC 1). Following the changeover from Boeing MD-83s to Airbus
A320s, these flights were integrated into the Airbus Operation (OC
2). The charter operation, with its three SWISS SUN A320s, now return
to the OC 1 pilots corps.

SWISS is withdrawing its plans for the legal establishment of a
subsidiary SWISS Express. The commercial objectives of the regional
fleet, higher productivity and the cost structure will, however, be
rigidly adhered to. They form an important component of the regional
section of the Business Plan.

Agreement was reached with Aeropers, the former Swissair pilots'
union, on the implementation of the measures contained in of the
Business Plan. These include, amongst others, an innovative part-time
model as well as a contribution to the Turnaround from the planned
fleet reduction. With Aeropers, the union which was not involved in
the Arbitration Court proceedings, it was possible to reconcile the
effects of the SPA agreement on the medium- and long-haul pilots.

SWISS is convinced that agreement after this lengthy industrial
dispute will have an significant effect on other partners. The
negotiations with Kapers, the cabin personnel union, are close to
being finalised. The discussions with the ground staff (Gata, KV,
VPOD, Push) on the contribution of the personnel to the new Business
Plan are being intensively pursued. SWISS is optimistic that
agreement can be reached with all social partners in the very near
future.

Restructuring

The cornerstones of the new Business Plan and details of the planned
restructuring were presented on June 24. The "Foundation for Winning"
Project Group is working flat out on the implementation. The new
route network was announced on Friday, July 11. Information was also
given on the elaboration of the new European Business Concept. What
SWISS will in future be offering on board its European flights is
currently being worked on.

The sweeping reduction in costs, which is linked with the suppression
of about 3,000 jobs, is currently being discussed with the unions.
Discussions have taken place with the five largest suppliers on
questions of volume and cost reductions and are continuing in a
promising manner. In the workshops the new contractual conditions are
being negotiated.

SWISS support package for redundant employees

SWISS is facing decisive measures. 3,000 jobs must be suppressed in
order to ensure survival of the necessary Turnaround. This is
necessary to ensure the remaining 6,300 work places. In order to
alleviate the effects of the dismissals and, in order to support the
employees in this difficult situation, SWISS has prepared a package
of measures, designed to meet the needs of the personnel categories
concerned.

All employees are being offered a social plan which provides
substantial support. To ensure work places, the possibility of
setting up part-time posts is being examined. Special training is
being offered to section leaders to enable them to conduct dismissal
discussions and to provide after-support in a professional manner.
For those dismissed, an internal "Career Guidance", definition of
position and support for new career paths is being offered. In
addition, a Hotline has been set up which those dismissed may use as
required, whilst the employee care activities (HR Employee
Counselling) has been strengthened. In Basel and Zurich Helpdesks has
been set up, in collaboration with the regional employment exchanges
(RAV). On the internal Intranet system SWISS employees can consult
the job market offers.

MBA courses for pilots, organised in conjunction with the European
Aeronautical Institute, provide new career opportunities and permit
the attainment of academic qualifications. In a similar manner, a
continuation training course in marketing, finance and management has
been prepared for cabin personnel and ground staff. This will be
offered out in collaboration with the RAV and will be granted
official recognition on completion of the course.



Sagey

Message for non-Swiss pilots:

Avoid working in Switzerland! Chances are, you will be shafted eventually. Gastarbeiters are just that, whether road-sweepers, doctors, or pilots. A most self-protective place to live, as I learnt from many years experience.

Well in first place the foreign pilots still can go to justice this would be a lovely case for every lawyer ,and besides make lots of noise in the media not only in Switzerland but all around.
Do you know that it is very likely that they will not receive the unemployement insurance ,after they paid out of their salaries every month and are entitled to it.
Yes is true is not a country as everybody can think as top of the first civilized world.
Or at least is the impression that the airline gives ,where discrimination walks freely and happy.

Things happen fast at Swiss - or do they?
 

Many words have been spoken and written since Swiss came into being.

Many plans have been made and didn't happen.

A week after my prophecy that Swiss Express would be lost in the flood of other problems, Swiss can, with a sigh of relief bin that idea... And so it goes on.

The guys at the top are just rotating like a garden sprinkler and pouring out the cash as they do so. All these ideas - the comittees to research them and the time wasted on them costs a hell of a lot. It is all noise.

The only real action you see is the axe dropping on healthy branches while the rotten parts stay in place. It can't last like that.

And Moritz? Yes he's back, with a Lugano/Geneva line to start in Autumn. He's just sharpening his teeth and watching events...

Guess we will see a lot of Swiss pilots flying in the UK!

:mad:

On the Swiss pilot forums it is said, that the difference in pay is not caused by a different treatement of swiss and non - swiss pilots but due to a difference between unlimited and time - limited working contracts.

The working contracts are exactly the same for everybody ,the difference is that the non swiss or E.U. pilots are being fired because of the working and residence permit not renewed by the authorities ,and this was caused because the company failed to inform the authorities when the contracts were changed from limited to unlimited two years ago.
I can not belive that somebody with an average IC can agree that this is a good reason to make the difference on the monetary compensation

What! A management/union thread without some bladderheaded comment from 411a!!!!! What's the world coming to? :E

They turned the fleeing Jews back from their borders, only to be sent to the gas chambers! They banked and kept the Nazi millions including gold extracted from the mouths of murdered civilians! Why should they do any differently now...? :yuk:

OK, 126.9, that's just a bit harsh now....

The reason you even HEAR about foreign pilots in Switzerland, is because Switzerland is one of the only countries (in Europe at least) that will not make it near impossible for a foreigner to even work in their country. Try working in France for example as a non-national (or even worse, non-eu) and you will know what I am talking about...).

Large groups of UK, Australian, Swedes and others have traditionally been hired to compensate for the shortage of quality pilots in Switzerland. For the most part, they have been given the standard contract and been treated exactly like the swiss.

In a scenario, however, where about 1/3 of ALL pilots in Switzerland do not have a job any more, it is somehow understandable that the people with a limited-time permit of stay get fired first... At least that's what all other countries do...

Examples? My swiss colleague working for Saudia was given 48hrs to leave the country at the onset of the first Gulf war...

Germany will not give swiss citizen a working permit of more than 18 month, after which they are kindly asked to get the hell out...

France, as i said, is hopeless...

Nobody wants to go to the UK anyway...

And so on...

The best example comes from canada: friend of mine was flying Pilatus Porter. When his canadian "colleagues" felt he was taking away their job, they simply sabotaged his heater, almost freezing him to death on the next flight! He got the message and left...

As for Swiss history during and after second world war, I strongly suggest you look at your own backyard before ranting on about that...

MissChief: I can only agree !

FlyMD: Holland was a good place to work as a foreigner - the only problem was that the company was Swiss-owned !!!

We all know that everything in that country is directly related to money. Everything...show'em some cash and they'll start to think about how to steal it from you. And they're very good in doing that.


Anyhow, good luck for the jobsearch to all foreign pilots there who just lost there jobs.

The Swiss pilots collect unemployment money - so they have enough time to think about what's next.

:*

more of the same
 

FlyMD,

I can agree with you that if there are lots of swiss pilots unemployed the right thing is that the foreigners leave first .But other thing is to DISCRIMINATE the foreigns when they came to work honestly and in good faith and where offered with the same conditions(contract) of the others because with out them Crossair was not able to subsist.
Why not being honest ???? ,and not do that dark thing of the residence permit ,I can asure you that if in the first moment the company offered a fare compensation the 99.999999 % of the foreigns would have taken it and run out very happy .
I hope you never have to be under such an ugly experince that can make you and your family's life really miserable.
To conclude, they took foreigners when were needed and when not they kicked them out like sick dogs.Is not what somebody expects from "one of the most civilized countries in the world".

The fact is that the non-EU pilots were not informed of the consequences, when their unlimited working contracts were changed by Swiss (the airline) into limited ones.

It meant, for non-EU pilots, that by the time their working contract were not renewed, their working and residence permits would be csancelled by the state. They would have to leave the country without any right for compensation. EU-Pilots are entiteld to unemployment fees and may generally remain in the country depending on their connections there. Non-EU are not.

The legal stand point of Swiss adopted was to say: «Sorry guys, if you have to leave, it because of the State, not because of the company. Get lost».

Thats how Swiss tried to get rid of them without spending a penny.

Eventually, the Swiss Pilots Association (former Crossair pilots) negociated with the direction and obtained them a 50'000 francs compensation. Its better than nothing. But it compares to 85'000 for First Officers and 140'000 for Captains. Most of the fired non-EU pilots were Captains. They get 90'000 less than their colleagues, who did exactly the same job.

Morever, most of them came with their families, some three years ago, when Crossair was desesperatly looking for experienced pilots to hire. Now Swiss wants to deduce their moving costs from their 50'000 allowance. In some cases, it will reduce it by more than 90% (ever moved a whole household and flew five family members from Basel to Pearth?).

Yes, the Swiss (the airline) management did a very, very dirty trick. I don't believe it is Swiss (the country) speciality, but it remains uggly. :yuk:

OK guy, I have to agree with you there:

As long as we are talking about Swiss management, your criticism is justified.

A small but important distinction is however still in order:

The "dirty trick" you are talking about took place in the "ex-crossair" pilot group, and only there. Crossair has always treated it's pilots like !!!!, foreign or domestic. No excuses.

But it also has to be mentioned that ALL foreign pilot working in the "ex-swissair" corps are treated exactly the same as the swiss guys, their contracts are worth the same and the older ones can look forward to a (still) nice pension.

By the way, seniority number 1 to 8 on the "ex-swissair" list are Dutch, and they will keep flying there as long as company exists...

Cheers,

yes, but
 

Compensation, if it hapens, is welcome, but it still sticks in the craw that not one single astronaut gets fired. NOT ONE! I have to admit that Aeropers, despite their Machiavelian shenanigans, are briliant in the way they have influenced all outcomes since April 1, 2002. Pure evil, but brilliant. Can't help but wish I was on their team instead.

yes.

Ettore
 

Ettore ,

Just for your info. ,the working contracts were changed the other way around ,initially the ex-Crossair pilots had a LIMITED two year contract and at the begining of 2001 the company offered them an UNLIMITED contract, to keep the foreigners (including non E.U.) flying there.
And then the managment said that somebody" forgot" to inform the goverment about this and therefore the residence permits that were issued based on the initial two year contract were not renewed.

cmx

But the permits were renewed...

For another 18 months because Crossair/Swiss still needed them for a short time.

No Snoopy 2 ,

The permits were not renewed ,people has to leave the country by 31st of August the latest ,thats why they are getting 30% of the compensation.

Sorry, what I meant to say was the original two year permits were renewed.

It was for another 18th months after the original 2 year permit.

ONLY because Crossair/Swiss really NEEDED these pilots at this time.

Funny how Crossair/Swiss got what they wanted when they asked.

Snoopy2 ,

The permits were renewed on 1 year basis ,the first renewal was done problemless ,but for the second one everything started ,and they gave the last renewal until July 31st.

And yes they get what ever they want by doing what ever it takes; does not matter if is legal or not.

Ettore
cmx

You speak the language!!!!!
It does not completely matter what the permit story is, the end result is DISRIMINATION!!!!! Discrimination amongst the same corps. My friends who come from the same (foreign) country as I do, will get a HUGE difference in money. Question which the management WON'T answer, is the rest of the benefits which was in discussion more than a year ago, cannot be rectified, or clarified!! And remains UNANSWERED!!!!! There is always the blame from the one to the other: if it is not the Union, then it is management, and vice versa.
The book:" Living and working in Switzerland" clearly points out Swiss discrimination to foreigners, in ALL respects.
Is this different now???? Look at previous writers in this forum for the history!!!!
:O :O :O

Xenophobic Swiss
 

The bottom line is that typical Swiss Xenophobia has triumphed once again! How the hell would the Swiss people feel if every other country's airlines or companies started retrenchments by getting rid of Swiss nationals first? (Not a bad idea actually!) :yuk: More than 19% of the Swiss population are employed abroad. Now that would create a smell we're accustomed to experiencing in the boardrooms of Swissair! :yuk:

As for looking in my own backyard Mr MDWhatever: Switzerland is in my backyard! :yuk: And it is very clearly documented what was the Swiss people's involvement in the War and more specifically The Nazi Party. Numerous unresolved court cases against Swiss companies and the Swiss government continue as we argue, with respect to returning stolen monies and properties to the rightful, dead, Jewish owners.

I too work for a Swiss owned company. And I am sickened by the blatant, outspoken racist opinions of my Swiss colleagues! The resolution of the foreigner issue at Swiss is just another display of what a sick society Switzerland has produced! :yuk:

126.9, what can I say... This last post says more about your sad and angry self than about the subject... Anybody want to get back to the thread?

FlyMD pls check your PM!!

:ok:

I just hope that one day one of our swiss "collegues" can explain why a pilot with a B-permit is worth less than another one .If it is not discriminatory and xenophobic ,I will have to go through the dictionary once more and try to find a new meaning for those words .
Can you FlyMD ?

With all due respect to the handfull of Swiss people that do not conform to the xenophobic Swiss stereotype; there's an old English adage that says: Where there's smoke, there's fire. Take a look through some of the older threads on this website and see if you can count how many times this exact topic has come up? The Swiss have been accused of being racists since long before I was born. My very own experience of working, socialising and associating with them, backs up this theory completely.

Mr FlyMD, you can call me what you like, you can accuse me of whatever charges you may contrive but, you can never hide the fact that thousands of jews went to the gas chambers directly after being turned away from the Swiss borders and handed over to the Nazis! :yuk:

cmx,

Having put 126.9 on my "ignore" list, I might not be up to the very latest mud-slinging on this thread.

To answer your post, however:

1. I was not trying to say that those pilots put from a full-time to a limited contract were being treated fairly, so you are certainly right to talk about discrimination.

2. Any bad management, and the Crossair/Swiss management is certainly bad, will attack the weakest link of a chain... In this instance, it was the foreign pilot, not because they were foreign, but because they were vulnerable. The fact that only a handful of those pilots actually ever joined the union did not help, although in their situation I would not have joined either... So I respectfully submit than xenophobia is the wrong word.

3. I have grown up in this country, and although often living abroad, I continue to live here happily. Switzerland has the highest percentage of foreign-nationals of any nation I know. It also takes in the highest number of refugees in relation to it's size of any country I know. While we have our fair share of idiots and bigots, I simply refuse to acknowledge xenophobia as being more rampant in Switzerland than anywhere else, quite the contrary actually. I call it the way i see it, while accepting any differring opinion, as long as it stays above the belt-line (reason why Mr. 126.9 is on my "ignore" list.)

4. I did a brief 3-year stint at Swissair. Had I stayed on, I would now probably be facing dismissal. This in respect with my seniority number, not because of my passport. As I said before, number 1 to 8 on that list are Dutch, and they enjoy all the privileges that are due to them. Which is as it should be.

Greetings.

The Facts!
 

1. Foreign nationals employed at Swiss and resident in Switzerland based on B-Permits, were treated unfairly. For the exact facts on this matter see the termination package and it's applicability to those individuals concerned. Or even better; ask my 30 or so mates from South Africa, New Zealand, Australia etc. that have just returned home from Swiss!

2. The management at Swiss/Swissair has traditionally been bad. They managed to sink a perfectly workable company and then take Europes biggest success story (Crossair) and turn it into worthless sh!t. The ousting of Guru Moritz Suter, was just the beginning in the decline of Crossair at the hands of Swiss/Swissair Incompetence.

3. Switzerland employs around 18% of its workforce from abroad. Most of these are employed in the unskilled sector with about 8% coming in as qualified individuals on B-Permits. Of this group only around 2% will ever be allowed to remain permanently in Switzerland.



4. The nations accepting most refugees in Europe are, in order of numbers accepted, Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Holland, Spain... Switzerland I believe, was recently accused by Amnesty International of "...not playing an active role..." in the plight of the world's refugees.

5. Numbers 1 to eight on that list should be numbers 700 to 708 (or there about) since Crossair actually bought Swissair and not vice-versa! Do we need to be reminded that Swissair is Dead! :ok:

Ignore that!

the facts 2
 

I have to say that my experience with swiss people on personal relation has been very good ,almost all the people that I treated on a social basis were very nice ,open and friendly.
But as well the other face of the system ,and here I include the business managment ,politics ,etc. is absolutely disgusting ,the B permits were treated with discrimination and xenophobia and that is something that nobody can deny .A little example besides the revoking of the B-permits,and not the working contracts which remained unlimited is the fact that we can not get the unemployement insurance after being discounted from our salaries every month for 3 years. That has a presise word which is STEALING ,just because our vulnerable position on account to our weak nationality and I am sorry to insist on the word but is no other than XENOPHOBIA.

Cheers.......

cmx,

I'm not sure I understand completely the last remark of your post... If my knowledge of applicable Swiss law serves me correctly, anyone who has worked more than 6 month on an unlimited contract is entitled to unemployment benefits... That this does not apply to a limited-term contract is self-evident, and the same everywhere, e.g. I had a 6-month contract in Bali, and that is how long my permit of stay was, which means I had no right to look for another job once this contract expired, and had to leave the country immediately. Can you tell me again just what your status was?? Tks

FlyMD ,

The contracts were unlimited ,what was not renewed was the B-permits ,because the company "forgot" to inform the goverment when they changed the contracts from limited(2 years) to unlimited.
So then the goverment said that they don't have to renew the permits cause were issued on the initial two years contract.
Funny isn't it

Here is an interesting story about how nice Switzerland treats it´s foreigners... Conincidence ? I think not ! You want the full report ? Here it is !

That´s precisely the reason why Switzerland is a racist country !

Ask yourself the following question : "why were they vulnerable in the first place?"

They were vulerable because Switzerland is the only ´civilized´ country that gives temporary visas for foreigners and then kick them out as soon as there are not enough drug dealers coming to launder their money in this little Alpine Banana Republic!

cmx,

so was it a 2-year contract, or an unlimited one???
To reiterate, I think you were "played" by a lousy management, not by the government... B-permit means you get to stay as long as your employer declares you have a working contract, same as in any country. Also to reiterate, most other countries are at least as stringent towards temporary permits, IF you get them in the first place. Have you tried working in France as a non-EU citizen? (just an example...)

R.Vesco:

Yes, we have idiots and racists, too... But to say it again, we have the highest per-capita amount of foreign nationals and refugees of any country, and the popular initiative last year (which I did not vote for) aimed at limiting the number of illegal entries, and promoted the fast deportation of "false" refugees having commited crimes in Switzerland... hardly the subject matter in this case.

In general, it seems that most people around the world have had a false, much to "clean" image of Switzerland for a long time, and now that they discover us as being a country with problems like everybody else, some people "love to hate us"... fine, enjoy yourselves, next year you'll be hating somebody else, the popular press of your country will tell you who in time...

FlyMD ,

The initial contract was for 2 years ,after the training was completed ,they offered the unlimited contract that everybody signed.
Then the goverment didn't renew the permits because they said : "the company didn't inform us about the change of the two year contract to unlimited,so we don't have to renew the permits that were issued under the initial two years contract".
Do you understand the game????????

FlyMD,

Something else ,Yes I am now living in Spain as NON-EU citizen ,and aswell looking for a job with the same chances,salary,and contract of a spanish pilot.
Amazing isn't it???

I think this is deliberate act of dark and mean hearted Personnel Chief Lugenbull. All those mean people will be cursed and see them suffer in our life time.

overall vision of the entire team seems very unprofessional.eg:

They ordered Emb145 with HUGS and irs, paid millions extra for it, how are they going to justify the extra amount paid for the benefit. Actual use of HUGS has not paid off the cost incured and similarly irs use in European airspace was waste of money. After all these unnecessary investment they are now reverting back to Saab 2000 and return EMB 145 to manufacturer. I think a responsile management should never toss off staff like that and waste money to the extend the company collapses, or did they think after all its swiss taxpayers money?