Emirates DEC
 

Mods please remove if I've missed something, but finding info on Emirates, Ts&Cs, lifestyle etc are hard to come by.

Given they've opened DEC positions I'm curious to get some current info on dream vs reality 👍

Thanks in advance

Just head over to the Middle East forum. Plenty of info on EK available.

Spent nearly 20 years there and loved most of my time there. Decided to return to the Old Continent a few years ago mainly for family reasons, otherwise I would have stayed (hopefully).

The Company is a top-notch Swiss-clock organization. The training is amazing 90% of the time (like everywhere…unicorns do not exist and I am speaking as a former Trainer) and the company can be as supportive as they can provided you do not BS them, and that’s where usually things turn sour.

Think of Emirates as an Organization where you either provide 100% input and get 100% output (in terms of career, lifestyle, money, etc..) or provide a 60% input and get 20% output.

During my many years there, I have flown with countless pilots who complained about everything like roster for example. When asked how it was back home they usually replied “oh I was on a 5 on 2 off with round the clock flights with less than half the salary and no upgrade opportunities”. You see my point right?

If you make it through as a DEC get ready for one of the most challenging experiences you would have encountered in your life, and that’s regardless of the fact that now you might as well be a TRI/TRE with 20K hours at easyjet or whatever. You will feel like a freshman at a top-tier University for the first 6 months, but it’s totally worth it.

Good luck 🍀

Maybe I'm wrong, but looks like pay would be about $15k net per month. A widebody FO in the US would make that, working 12 days a month. Pff, I'm a NB FO, and if I hustle I can do that if I work 20 days a month. And I have passed training at 5 companies in the past 30 years, both US&EU without subsequent failures or problems, but never felt behind in training because it was "like a top tier university" (as a matter of opinion, a former trainer saying training is amazing actually carries less weight than a former line pilot saying that). What I have heard about work rules does not sound good to me. About 11 days off per month?? I get at least 15 before vacation. The fact they have openings for DECs pretty much says enough: more people with experience are leaving.

I 100% suscribe what Nickler says. And virtually nobody is leaving, the airline is just expanding massively and we literally don't have enough FOs with the required experience.

Just want to emphasize DEC at EK is not an easy path though. Happy to answer any questions you might have.

I agree with nicker and Aussie farmer. I went in as a DEC and had a great 10+ years there; great variety of routes and most of the time great people to work with.

If you stick to how EK wants you to operate you will have no problems. Not once in my time was I asked to justify any of my decisions.

That’s how I felt at EK, but I know not all will agree. If I had to start again, I would make the same decision as I did those years ago.

How would you compare it vs the Accelerated Command Upgrade program?
I am approaching the requirements for the Accelerated Command, but I don't have the urge to leave my current operations at home and I'm happy to wait to reach the requirements for the DEC job advert, provided the position will still be available at that time.

It mostly depends on your age and fall back plans.

If you consider the different “what if” scenarios, you must consider that something couldn’t go as planned, i.e. you run into potential issues during the accelerated command process and it does take more time than expected only to find out that after a couple of years you prefer to leave and try to take another narrow body command somewhere else. If this scenario is acceptable go for it. Chances are that thanks to the thorough selection process and training capability at EK you will most likely make your accelerated command but the above reasoning is part of our standard daily pilot mindset I would say.
If the above scenario makes you raise more than one eyebrow then you’d better wait to get the hours for the DEC position, go for it and if something goes wrong it will come up much faster.

Both positions require a very steep adaptation and learning curve; you will not have the luxury of settling into the company gradually as with a standard FO entry position and several years waiting time for your command opportunity. The operating standard of a DEC or Accelerated is the same one expected from someone who has been on the RHS for 6/7 years and knows the company inside/out.

As we’ve discussed above, if you put 100% commitment you’ll be fine. Just food for thoughts.

Then don’t apply 😄

Thanks for the very elaborated message, really appreciated!

I'll take my decision when the time comes.

No worries, happy to help anytime. Good luck :ok:

Pay will be approx 19K USD a month if you take the housing allowance. Plus you'll get schooling allowance that will cover 80-90% of the fees for World-Class schools for three kids and you won't have to worry about your kids getting shot. But each to their own...

Don't worry, I lived in Saudi and a few other countries around there growing up. You could not pay me enough to live in any of those places. The way they treat people is absolutely incompatible with my view of humanity. No need to even get deep into the miserable climate politically, sociologically, socially and meteorologically. I didn't mention that before because everyone should make up their own mind. but you asked. I believe in being to speak my mind. I believe all other people should be too. As soon as that happens there I will reconsider. Not likely to happen. Enjoy the sandbox.

I am not from the US, but I do live there. If there is one thing I could change it would be the 2nd amendment, so fair point. Less than 50 kids a year die in school shooting with over 70 million kids in school. Obviously any is one too much. But more kids get killed driving to school than are shot in school. About 10.000 migrant workers die in the Gulf countries every year, even though the population is 20% of the USA. Like you said, to each their own...

I always answer the same to friends who ask about DEC: just don't do it. Historically, it's been difficult to make it through the selection process, and from those who make it there's a relatively high failure rate in the conversion course. Bear in mind we do have a new pilot selection manager who is probably going to make it better for DECs (pure speculation from my part).

Reality is unless you come from a similar operator (QR, Etihad), the sheer amount of information and culture you need to process is just overwhelming. It is much less stressfull and dramatically increases your success chances to come as Accelerated Command. Spend one year on the right seat learning the airline and the airplane and then go for the upgrade shot, knowing what is expected of you and how to play the game. Just my 2c.

This post really sums it up - it should be the main reference for anyone willing to attempt the DEC path.

I may add that if you decide to go for it and are successful at screening, leave your family in your home country for the first year. Your life will be pretty much training, sims, flying, study, eat, sleep, repeat. Better to sacrifice one year of your personal life than the position you're trying to get.

Oh come on, it ain't that difficult.

You must be SFOs approaching command time if you're trying to put off DECs...just so they don't nick "your spot". 🙄

Not really. I upgraded in EK early 2000’ and have then spent 15 years in Operations Training. I might just know what I am talking about? 😀
And by the way if you read my posts and aussiefarmer it’s quite the opposite; we’re actually trying to give out heads up and have people get ready for a challenging experience. If it then becomes a walk in the park like it probably was for you then happy days 😎.

absolute agree
 

My words!

Absolutely. Worked as a pilot many years abroad(still do in a kind of way as an Austrian living and working in Italy, but at least it's in the free world and you can ALWAYS react in a PROPER way IF your empolyer decides to make up fishy reasons "to let you go"), Australia, Middle East(Qatar, another dark chapter in my life), been flying in and out of the who is who of horrible places on this, generally beautiful, world.
You need to have a certain "mindset" to survive longterm in the ME, mainly just ignore whatever they are doing and staying "fine" with it. If you can do that, you are perfect ME airline material. OR - you do it as many FO in my(!!!!ty) airline are doing - take what you get to find a way out(IMHO this only works for young people, old farts like me, with only few years left to retirement just should sit the !!!! till retirement), get the type on that heavy, see how it goes(most leave on very nice terms with our current airline because they want a way back in, as others did already, just in case things go south in the sandpit), take some profit shares and see something else, starting to compare what is important in each individuals life(some like the cage - I always asked myself(and my wife) - "what the !!!! they put into their water":E to see the ME so chill, others don't).

As nickler writes so nicely - they hire DEC's to get hated by everyone(FO that get jumped in internal upgrades), YOU have to take the heat, YOU are expected to do the job the airline should do(a proper induction, a proper linetraining onto the LH seat without an incredible amount of stress). I mean, even QR managed that(and assume they still do) direct entry widebody Captains(was one myself many many years ago) get properly inducted, get a fair sim training, fair and good linetraining and finally a release to line(I did it in 20 sectors, no idea if that is good or not) just to fly with some(times) very sceptical FO(as you "jumped their line" - later you do not wonder why they put you in front of them:rolleyes:) . If have nothing bad bad memories of the ME "airline experience". I brought my family after 5 months and that was a very long time for us to be apart. 1 year is just absurde - but hey, if you like shiny jets OR have no family, it might be ok(after all humans are different, that's the #1 lesson I learnd in life(just followed by "humans are snakes and will backstab whenever they can" ;-) ).

So, be very careful what you go for and if you really want to waste so much of your life to an airline that will fire you in an blink of an eye if it is convenient for them(hello covid ;-) ). ME - EK, QR. VERY overrated. Nobody wonders why they are continuously recruiting. Since decades....

I joined EK as a DEC almost 15 years ago. I found the conversion course was not technically difficult but there was an awful lot of it and I seemed to spend most of my time trying to 'unlearn' the way I had operated for the previous 30 years (in 3 airlines and the military) and trying to learn the 'Emirates' way. I found the course to be more about time management and preparation rather than anything that actually happened in the sim or in the aircraft - maybe I was just lucky.

On conversion and on the line I never experienced any issues with F/Os who thought I was sitting in their seat.

Overall, I am glad I joined as a DEC as it served its purpose for me just as I served a purpose for EK as a DEC. But never regard working for EK as anything other than a business arrangement. If they need to make redunduncies today (Covid-19 or suchlike) then that's just hard luck - ask the guys who thought they were joining EK and never even got their joining cargo unpacked!

If you are not too old and would have other options if EK didn't work out, I would say go there and enjoy the experience but always remind yourself of where you would have been at your age if you were enjoying a full career with a legacy carrier, and plan your finances (especially your spending in DXB) accordingly.

Good luck.

Yes ,
It takes alot of practice to pancake a 777 on a f up GA or not rotate at all on departure because the FD doesn’t tell you too .

Gods gifts to aviation it seems - except , not .

The GA was, I think, a local Captain with a rather thick training file. I believe his next job was as a Flight Ops Inspector with the GCAA. I am not too familiar with the other case you mention.

indeed , but they are making out you need to be an austronaut to pass their course , it’s protectionism I know , but they’ve had some high profile fantastic command moments

They hire DECs because they need them, that's all. Considering the fleet size and expansion plans no FO will ever be concerned by the DECs intake, except the ones who have failed their command who will be pissed off anyway.

That's the perfect way to approach it. Problems start when people are unwilling to "unlearn" old habits and get trained in a different way to embody the Company operating procedures and that will cause headaches. I mean, it's not uncommon to have a DEC with several thousands of PIC time at highly respectable operators being reluctant to undergo some major social and cognitive changes in the daily operations because of their -rightly so- very respectable career path. It's just a matter of getting used to operate within the framework of a gigantic worldwide recognized brand which employs over 100 nationalities and flies in every corner of the world. For me, in my 20 years there, it has been an amazing journey. Would do it all the way again.

I would just stress to anyone considering this to make sure you do your research very thoroughly. And make sure you get advice from people who have been in the company for a long time, not 2-3 years!

24/7 operation - make sure you are fully aware of the type of duties. Deep nights on most trips in at least one direction, most turnarounds etc. There will be times where you are absolutely exhausted.

Roster - Ask people who have been in the company 7+ years how the rostering has been over that entire time. Ask in particular about day off requests and specific trip requests. Do not presume that if it has been ok in the last couple of years that will continue!

Compare the salary to cost of living. In particular look at the cost of property to rent/buy, school fees, likely monthly bills, groceries etc. Accomodation Allowance is frozen and not available all the time.

If planning to live in company accomodation visit it before you sign the contract. Make sure you are happy with the compound and where it is in relation to the rest of the city.

Company culture, in particular with regards to sickness/promotion etc. Especially if you want to progress your career beyond line captain.

Black swan events - how the A380 fleet in particular were treated during the pandemic.

Dubai - I really enjoyed my time there but its not for everybody. Make sure you visit first, ideally with your partner/family in the summer.

Sums it up nicely.

The only problem with visiting the middle east only in summer is you might get the impression that the weather is like that all the time, which it isn't. My opinon is the weather is perfect 9 months of the year and F***ing hot for 3 months. But I'll take that over 9 months of cold and/or wet any day!

Perfect for 9months of the year is a bit of a stretch!
I did like the weather, but got bored of endless sunshine for 15yrs.
But one factor is the horrendous air quality, I’ll take seasons and some rain over that any day.

But hey it’s all personal preference on that one!

Interesting.. I found 8 months of the year unbearable. The humidity is the gotcha. With 4 tolerable months where you could actually enjoy the afternoons outside; December through to March.

Continuing on this theme; visit with the family in April/May perhaps? Evenings are lovely but every afternoon well into the 40s. I coped with the weather well, I loved the perfect 6 months (imo) every year. But if the wife and kids are not going to leave every summer they need to experience just how unbearable it is.

I do believe is personal preference Dubai is just Concrete, Sun, Air Conditioning eternal living.
Good for a while there are get some Wide Body experience. But not forever.

Any info on the current housing situation, is it still Meydan South? Any info would be great. TIA

In terms of company culture, I was wondering as Captain what support or resistance would you get in the following scenario:

Currently they are still using Iranian airspace when most international carriers are not based on security grounds.

Let say that you as the captain decided that you are not happy to accept a flight plan over Iranian airspace, would be the response be?

This type of culture is a big one for many considering a move to another carrier.

I imagine the response will be on the line of: “our security team assessed the use of such airspace in compliance with our strict security requirements, in coordination with government agencies and so on… are you refusing to carry out your planned duty Captain?”
You know the ME can have a somehow fragile political stability at times, and a local carrier will overfly hotspots such as Yemen, Somalia, South Sudan, Syria, Iran, etc.
They have specific restrictions and procedures in place for each airspace, including prohibited airspaces. I doubt you refusing to fly over an “approved airspace” will go down very well with management.

so basically you are stuck having to follow the company policy and fly where pretty much no other international airline flies over with no added protections?

thank you, this answers my question, I will not apply.

Out of curiosity, what would you consider sufficient "added protections?" A squadron on F-16s going with you?

Not to take sides but (IMO) a good way to evaluate dodgy bits of airspace is: "are Emirates (and/or Lufthansa) flying there?"....

The added protections have already been negotiated..

Meaning: You are flying where no one else is and there is nothing that makes it safe. Sometimes the best thing is not use that airspace. Any airline not supporting a captain on this is unsuitable for many. Not to mention the reduced legal protections and lack of union representation amongst others. The money may be better but what is the price for this?

worth a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655