Is it worth joining the union?
 

Hi all,
I was just wondering if anyone could offer any advice on this.

I am a new pilot and have just passed line training and have just moved on to normal 'line flying'. I don't really know much about BALPA or what they do. The union is recognised at my airline, but nobody has mentioned it/ suggested I join.

I would consider myself a 'union man' I guess. I was a union rep at a previous workplace (not aviation) and my uncle is a big wig in one of the major unions. But I am not sure whether BALPA is worth it given the cost.

So what does everyone reckon? Is it worth joining?

If BALPA is recognised at your airline it is the only organisation that will negotiate Ts&Cs on your behalf. Generally the higher the union membership in any company, the more powerful those negotiations can be - ask your uncle. If you're happy to take negotiated benefits without contributing ...... I know how hard it was to get union recognition in my last airline, the fact that mgmt fought against it should tell you something and I know that without BALPA recognition the Ts&Cs would have been way worse.

That's before you factor in any form of employment protection - many PPruners will have strong views on this both ways.

For me, I couldn't ask someone to negotiate for me without being part of it and contributing to it.

Hth

There are some tax breaks that Balpa have managed to obtain as well, could save a ££££.
Also 70%( AFAIK)of your subscriptions are tax deductible.

I always had BALPA membership in case of a tea and no biccys meeting, at least I could have someone with me to make sure I would have been treated fairly.

Post 2 says it all.

Either that or if you aren't coordinated join the masons..might save your career..(from experience).

We have something like 98% membership density at my non-aviation workplace and we're one of the few trades/professions which has held on to really good T&Cs in the past 20 or so years. The right-wing media hate us for it but it's a price worth paying. The reps at my current employer introduced themselves in the messroom on the day I started and from my experience do a very good job.

I'd say it's an absolute no-brainer to join the union to start with, at the very least it's an insurance policy. Hopefully they have the membership density required to have some serious clout at the negotiating table. I'm slightly surprised you haven't heard from them already though.

Appreciative of some of the posts above. I am well aware of what a union *can* do as a former union rep. I am also well aware of what power solidarity and high union membership *can* have.

However, my question was whether BALPA was worth it.

As said above, nobody has even mentioned the union to me which was a bit surprising. One of my roles as a union rep was the contact new staff (ideally in their first few days) and to introduce myself and, basically, to try to sell the union to them. We also had welcome packs which would be given out to all new staff. I've been at the airline flying for months (plural) now and heard nothing. That has definitely put me off.

I am also not certain what benefits it would provide me personally. Obviously we have a negotiated pay deal which I benefit from either way, but which is primarily market dictated. It is also patently apparent in their pay deal that they are happy to have new entrants shafted on the payscale, in terms of job security, and in terms of benefits. One day in the future, I'll be on the other side of it, but that day isn't today. The tax thing I can apply for anyway. I suppose the only benefit I can see real use of is legal representation as a sort of insurance policy.

It's not the Mafia, join, and if it doesn't cut the mustard, you can still leave.

AlwaysWondering,

I guess union protocol can be different in the US vs EU but I'm surprised a BALPA presentation wasn't part of your initial indoc at the airline.

Does your employer there have what we call Agency Shop ?:


An agency shop is a type of workplace where employees are not required to join a union but still must pay union dues or a fee for the union's representation in collective bargaining.

The lack of hard sell has put you off joining?!

Sounds like people at your airline are simply content with their union so don’t spend all day everyday ranting about it. Sounds like a good thing.

The tax break is different to what you’re thinking of, it’s your subs, so over and above the FREA.

Whilst one or two can freeload from everyone else being in the union, take it to extremes. If no one at all was a member, it would fold and the company would have free rein to do whatever it fancies with you. Why would anyone voluntarily opt into such an environment? Answer, they wouldn’t, so make sure it doesn’t happen by being in the union!

Starting with deltahotel's very good Post you have been given many good reasons here, so join!!

I was a rep in my first airline which got on very well with BALPA and we both worked to helping each other.

I initially joined before getting into the 'airline world' and was convinced by hearing (from a rep involved in such help) how BALPA gives very good personal help if you are ever involved in an accident, (While I was a rep, we had an accident in the airline, fortunately fairly minor, but within hours a 'specialist' BALPA representative was on site to assist the crew.) This could be very important if you are involved in an accident in a country that has a 'less than friendly' legal system for dealing with accidents -- you could get your entire career's worth of subs in value from help if you are unfortunate to end up in the worst sort of situation.

But on the 'positive' side, there are sooo many 'perks' that go along with the Pilots Association side of BALPA as well as the union side -- join!!

Most pilots are BALPA members at the UK charter company I work for.
Over the eleven years I’ve been here, union membership has been a small price to pay for healthy gains on Pay, T&C’s, Pension, roster stability protection etc.., that we wouldn’t have come anywhere near to, if it were left to management decisions alone.

But the key is, you need a majority uptake by the workforce in order for a Union to have any clout.
Also, as others have already alluded to, it’s tax deductible.

Exactly this. Besides the oobvious, such as leverage when negotiating T/C´s, imagine you have a mishap somewhere in another country. All of a sudden the local police shows up at your aircraft and takes you away.. Then it might be a career saver to have your pilot union+ IFALPA show up to have your back and protect your interest/ career. It is a no brainer, join your union!

The simple answer is, Yes, it is always worthwhile to join the union. Collectively, they will look after your Ts & Cs and, in times of trouble, will look after your interests. And I say that as an ex-flight manager. It is important always to try to achieve a benign balance of power between unions and management. If one or the other becomes too powerful the members are likely to suffer.

deltahotel and NoelEvans are correct.

If nothing else, you'll avoid the awkwardness when your colleague asks if you're a union member come negotiation time :ok:

If it was free, would you join? If the answer is yes, then join.

Just to set the record straight I was a member of Balpa from the day I got a half decent job after leaving the Services until I retired. There are some positive aspects of the Union ( and it is a ‘Union’ whatever its name may suggest ) and there are certainly some hard working Council members out there. That being said, most pilots of my acquaintance joined it as an expensive perceived insurance policy rather like joining the AA or RAC. They will only support you in a dispute if they feel they can win so their backing is by no means assured. If your Company is involved in a merger then if you fall on the wrong side of the divide then be prepared to be screwed. I’ve been gone too long to know if they are still referred to as the British Airways Line Pilots Association - I will let others decide on that one. A powerful Company Council can achieve a great deal as we saw in BA and BY in the past. There are some very militant individuals out there - being ex Mil I would never have gone on strike in a million years but there are those who would be on the picket lines behind a brazier in a moment. Would I join again if I had my time over…..maybe I would due to strength in numbers but go in with your eyes open. Oh and by the way, as soon as you retire you are expendable !

Correct. Non members will always be looked at askance by their colleagues...if such things matter to that individual. The ultimate issue (among others) is whether such non member will honor a picket line should things come to that. As a non member, the company may not agree that you can refuse to fly.

Or, maybe things are just different over there.

Wrt merger..one ex course mate got screwed because he wasnt on the airbus whilst another who was junior got into BA when he shouldn't.
BUT I have a mate who took the proverbial out of the masons and after a contretemps with an overzealous security guard was sacked. BALPA got involved and were calling a strike which led to his reinstatement but without the prospect of a command. A few years later he was asked why he was still in the right hand seat by a extremely talented pilot who had got into management without learning the handshake, discovering the truth he put him straight onto a command course.
There are two things I detest..being given a handshake as though the w*****rs think because of my ancestry or career I would join; secondly being told their religion ..again as it might impress me.

Nobody likes a freeloader. Got plenty of those in my company who come up with any and every excuse why they aren’t in the union and can’t afford the fees but can spend £100 on a night out with you no problem. BALPA aren’t perfect but it’s your best chance of getting an improvement in T&Cs.

Is BALPA an expensive union ? ALPA charging me 1.85% of my gross. Adds up !

Alternatively the IPA will do everything BALPA does, except negotiate T&Cs, for a fraction of the price...I think 27 quid regardless of your income.

In my experience BALPA have been less than useless. They love to talk about negotiations and collective bargaining but when the cost of being in BALPA is more than the pay rise that they negotiated it really isn't worth it.

Will the IPA send a 'pilot care' representative to see you in hospital after any serious incident and ensure that the media are kept off your back? I knew one of those BALPA (volunteer) representatives who did exactly that in two totally different incidents (and it was his examples that convinced me to join BALPA). Will the IPA arrange to have the local Pilot Association abroad have their legal team arrive at the police station to have you released from having to make a police statement directly following a major accident in another country that does not have the same air accident protocols that we have? That local Pilot Association arranged for those British pilots to be able to return to Britain before returning to provide their accident statement, with Pilot Association representation this time, a week later. (We were given full details of all of that aspect of that accident, that happened with another airline, at one of our monthly company council meetings -- the first time BALPA heard of the incident was when the foreign Pilot Association contacted BALPA saying that there had just been an incident involving a G-reg airliner and did any BALPA members need assistance? That was pre-mobile phone regular use and the incident had not yet been reported in the news.) We had a significant runway excursion incident in this country in our airline and the BALPA 'accident' rep was with the two pilots involved, both members, within a few of hours. (We also got all the details on that at our next company council meeting. I know both pilots involved.) Would the IPA have provided that assistance?

In one of those incidents that I have mentioned above, one of the pilots involved became known by name with the media on his back throughout while the other pilot's name is unknown even to many people who know a lot about that famous incident: one was not a BALPA member and used to scorn BALPA membership, the other was a BALPA member. It should b obvious which one is well known and which one is virtually 'unknown'! (That case, that I heard of first-hand from the BALPA 'rep' who had been directly involved on the very night of the incident, was what convinced me to join BALPA quite some time before I joined an airline.)

Also, Tim Lancaster, in his subsequent article on his incident in the BALPA Log, thanked BALPA for keeping the media off him and his family following the incident. Have that happen without being a member and you have to deal with the paparazzi on you doorstep every day.

Any one of those incidents that I have mentioned will make your entire career's BALPA subs well worth it. So, no "the IPA will NOT do everything BALPA does". Especially, as I have detailed above, when it really, really matters.

Just join BALPA!!

Wow - very unfortunate that you experienced an incident/accident twice, I assume the first time you were BALPA and the second time IPA? You may be the first person qualified to comment on your respective experiences and comparison between the two.

Or, do I suspect that actually you quite like the idea that the IPA is a fraction of the price and you've let the tail wag the dog in deciding BALPA are useless because that makes a better argument than 'i'm cheap and i'd rather others pay their BALPA fees instead'...

Where I am from non-union members should be allowed leave of absence during the time members are on strike. Without pay or right to any compensation from the union, but they can still assume this neutral position. My experience is that non-unions members have carried on regardless, cashing in on overtime payment. Quite unfortunate...

I neither know nor care. And when I was in BALPA I neither knew nor cared then either. And the poor unfortunate subjects of your stories probably didn't either. Why don't you give the IPA a bell and ask?

Having experienced the bad side of BALPA I chose to leave. I'm quite happy with the IPA who have supported me more than BALPA ever did. Oh, it's just a bonus that they're a lot cheaper. I would still have left BALPA if the IPA were more expensive to join. But, nice try.

Hi Chesty,

When you were a member of BALPA and dissatisfied, did you stand for election to your CC?
If so, were you elected and what positive change did you manage?
If not, have you managed to improve the Union from outside of it?

A union is only as strong as its membership is willing to be.
A Company Council is only as good as those willing to stand for election.

If you personify Selflessness, Integrity, Objectivity, Accountability, Openness, Honesty & Leadership, then you will make an excellent BALPA representative.

Your democratically elected union representatives negotiate pay, terms & conditions. They spend hours voluntarily representing their colleagues to improve scheduling, rostering and the vagaries of FRMS. They accompany colleagues when summoned to various types of meetings with management & HR.
They spend enormous amounts of time re-negotiating and improving policies.
They shine light on the failings of systems & departments ensuring senior management are aware of the people tasks are delegated to.
Bigger BALPA have managed to persuade the Inland Revenue to support the best Fixed Rate Expenses Allowance in any profession in the UK. If you receive holiday pay at your UK airline that was also won through an extraordinarily expensive legal action for all professional pilots in the UK.
BALPA has a number of ongoing campaigns. Work that the wider industry and the traveling public will benefit from.
These are just the tip of the iceberg.

Initially, BALPA membership will be 0.5% of basic. A year Later, 0.75%. A further year you'll settle on 1.0%.
Establish what the last pay deal was, each of its intricacies. Then find out what managements opening offer was.
Is BALPA membership worth it? Only you can decide.
The website is easy to find.

It is disappointing to hear that your Company Council has not been afforded the opportunity to speak to new joiners. However, I'm confident that if you are motivated to do so, you can track someone down who will offer you an informed perspective from your CC.

YES, of course!

Just compare conditions in unionized companies with non-unionized companies. There is a reason some companies fight unions to the bone - they don't do that for you as an employee.

In jobs where hundreds or thousands of employees do the exactly same job, collective bargaining is the only way to get a fair share of the profit your company is making. Since in such jobs you can't bring yourself ahead with individual effort or qualification, individual contract negotiations would always put you on the short end - since you are completely replacable.

No, not my cup of tea and I also have no interest in improving a union I hold in contempt and am not a member of.

​​​​​​​F- all.

Neither management nor the union are perfect. That is life! On whichever side you find yourself on, just get on with it and try to make it better.

Flex33, a very good response.

However, it appears that ...

... says it all.

I genuinely hope that he never ends up in any unfortunate situation one day when his colleague needs that help that he will not be getting.

Chances of needing that kind of help? Extremely slim.

Chances of BALPA screwing people over? Extremely high.

I'll take my chances.

By the way, how do you know I "won't be getting" any help? Can you see into the future?:rolleyes:

As someone who started in the EU, and is now in the US the difference is staggering. Regulations are way more anti union/labo(u)r in the US than in the EU, but EVERY airline in the US is 100% unionized, and union participation in other sectors in the US is much lower than in the EU. Was just on the SAS T/C on PJN, and apparently a junior FO starts at about E3300/month, going up to E10k/month for a super senior captain. First year FO pay in the US for any good company is at least E7500/month, with 12 year captain pay at least E22K/month, and WB 25 year pay probably around E50K/month. I know Southwest 737 captains that make E500/year working less than 15 days a month. The way the unions work here is called closed shop. You can elect to not join but will still have to pay 80%ish of the dues for the benefits you receive. In practice nobody does that so the union speaks for the whole group. And the union leaders are elected by that group. Compared to other sector non-union workers in the US, and non-union pilots in the EU our conditions are vastly better. I will let you draw your own conclusions.....

A non-aviation viewpoint, but with some experience in handling HR matters. How are the HR functions organised at your airline - is there a central function which applies policies or has it been delegated out to local management? If it's the latter, I'd definitely want union support - my experience is that this leads to inconsistency of approach and I've found TU reps have a better grasp of the companies policies than local management and - how shall I put it? - can help managers apply policies fairly....

hans,

I'll hate myself in the morning but I'll just add a bit of specific detail to your comments. I usually don't get involved in word games but for some reason I'm wading in here.

"Every" airline in the US is not 100% unionized. For example, at Delta the only unionized groups are the pilots and dispatchers...no one else (there have been several failed attempts to unionize the F/As). There may be others I can't recall off the top of my head.

And we don't have "closed" shops. That's, for the most part, prohibited by the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947. We have "agency shop" where being a card-carrying union member isn't required but a representation fee for non members is. And if I recall correctly, a refusal of a non member to pay this fee requires termination (I stand ready to be corrected on this but it's what I recall).

I'll mostly go back to minding my own business now.

No offense taken. I used the wrong word, did try to explain the representation fee, but did not do a great job. And I did not specifically say I was only talking about pilots.

Nobody needs a Union until the days comes when you need a Union. Then it's too late to join.

I’ve worked for an airline without union recognition and one with union recognition.

As a result I’d never want to work for an airline without it.

Regardless of which union represents you, not being a member means not having a say or a vote. A situation I would not want to tolerate especially if I intended to stay in the airline for a significant length of time.

As a pilot without union membership you are relying on your airline management to protect you in the event of an incident or accident. As a union member you have someone else to turn too.

I hope this helps.