Close enough to bury the knife in to the hilt

Amen, brother!

jmmoric

I would be very reluctant to accept any concessionary contract. Us pilots did this post 9-11, and as a result it took these pilots 10-15 years to regain their previous wages. Further concessionary contracts DON'T equate to contractual job retention. Ie you could take the paycut only to be made redundant a few months later, only now having your new redundancie pay calculated on your newly reduced pay. In my opinion easyjet is going to crew subject to short/medium term crewing requirements. And PB has been hired to ensure that happens at a minimum cost to the company.

".......jmmoric

I would be very reluctant to accept any concessionary contract......"

A very good point and part of the management 'dirty tricks' toolkit. There is virtually no answer to this unless you could get 100% of pilots to threaten 100% strike action unless the management listens. Management know that this is vanishingly unlikely which is why they get away with the stuff that they do.

It is an often used playbook that works pretty much every time: Threaten mass redundancies and generate massive fears. That way pilots always, and i mean always, start to offer concessions without anybody asking for it. And of course the management then takes those ideas and runs with it lowering T&Cs substantially. Usually it takes at least 5 to 10 years to crawl out of that again, and by that time the next crisis looms.

I see more and more EZY pilots looking for work on both LinkedIn and in various Facebook groups. Sad news. I hoped that at least they will keep their pilots especially after (successful?) negotiations with unions. Or was it only the case in the UK?

The only compulsory redundancies so far has been in Germany.

I do hope that with at least according to seniority/date of joining and a letter of intent that they'll be the first ones to be recalled before hiring external pilots in the future.

The law in germany is slightly more complex than that.

A matrix was built where points were given based on your age (1 per year), years of service (1,5 per year of seniority), 7 points per dependant child, 5 points if with a registered partner, plus points for disability.

All of this per rank. Meaning that many guys with 1/2 years in the company, for example coming from Air Berlin, were saved, and other with 10 years in the company, but younger in age and less kids, were kicked out.

Thanks dirk85,

This seems to be the other extreme case on the scale with wizz on the far side (redundancies based on who is liked/disliked by their relevant managers). Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for the ex-AB guys in this case however this is not the way to treat pilots who dedicated years of their lives in service to ezy. Having a child, or two in that matter is a personal choice, so as being married, etc. I don't see it fair that this personal choice being rewarded by letting to keep your job. I am absolutely pro-seniority, based on the date of joining. None of the European companies seems to get it right, unlike their US counterparts.

In principle I don’t disagree with you, what happened in Berlin is very unfair towards long serving easyJet pilots.

There was a little manouvring space in terms of points given for each criteria, but not much, and in germany using seniority only would have been illegal.

The company went for the option more likely to hold up in case of court cases.

That's more of a philosophical argument; To coin a cliché, children are our future, and marriage is a common foundation for a family. Like it or not, many Western, and particularly European countries make provision for the welfare of children, in various ways such as reduced taxation, free schooling (paid by all taxpayers), and family support and incentives - And unemployment of the main earner is deleterious to a child's wellbeing. It is also far more difficult for a family to relocate to find a new job, or if a new job is away from home, it breaks up the family for long periods, and that tends to have negative effects on children.

The advantage given to age is slightly surprising given the ageism rules in the ECHR.

In many national legislations, there's no such thing as seniority. Length of service could be factored in one way or another when making the hard decisions, but not in every country and usually not as the sole criterion but as one of many. As no internal policy of the company can override the national legislation of wherever the contract was signed, it leaves the decision makers with little choice.

Although I am very sorry for everyone affected, this sort of matrix was still more of a fair game, as compared to what the magenta brigade did a bit further eastbound (again, making use of loopholes in national legislations which allow for redundancy criteria to be as simple as "I don't like you"). At least it was somewhat more of a transparent process in Germany, with the law overriding any hard feelings middle management might have had for any locally-based employee.

I don't think it's a fair game for someone to be out of a job where previously him/her was in the highest tax bracket due to being single with no kids.

In germany there is a huge focus on protecting families and especially children. Not surprising considering germany has one of the lowest birth rates worldwide, although it has recovered quite a bit in recent years. And of course, the usual pilot lifestyle of having more than one marriages could have helped here, a divorced, but still dependent partner has to be considered same as the currently married partner (or legal partnership). From what i hear, there were quite a few short notice marriages that in some case actually saved an income.

Although i know how it feels being in the highest tax bracket, try having a kid, those are very expensive, and without them a country will experience huge problems as japan, italy and germany are currently learning. And of course, those that are unattached are deemed more mobile and able to find work elsewhere without having to move a whole family.

Is there a transparent process for re-hiring? Or can middle management work out its grudges there? Or any right to be considered before any outside applicant at all? Those things are, after all, not required by law in germany and have to be negotiated between unions and management.

Valid questions. Hopefully it'll work out for those affected. Let's hope that the orange lot won't try and learn/take anything from the magenta outfit a few hundred kms east...

Ridiculous. Even 3 points would be pushy. How much did women got, 30 points? :ugh:
Having a kid might come down to personal choice (except that one layover), not having one isn't always down to own choice.

Precisely. Particularly unfair to those suffering fertility problems. Unjustifiable IMHO.

Child allowances/leave/job protections etc are not a perk - they are a measure to try and partially offset the costs and difficulties associated with working and keeping a family together.

plikee

Gender doesn’t count. However, 7 points per kid is actually pushing it as it is quite a low number for germany. Usually kids would bring around 10 points. But as always, the system will be challenged and negotiated in front of an employment court, as one absolutely has to sue his (former) employer for unfair dismissal in germany, it’s absolutely normal and usually seen as a requires step. At least it will result in a higher severance payout, in the best case the company has to continue employment.

By the way, adopted kids count the same.

Denti

The reference to the gender was a sarcastic joke as EZY launched a pilot recruitment campaign target only at women not that far ago. I understand where the points for kids come from but still extremely unfair unless it takes personal circumstances into consideration - as Plastic787 said, couples with fertility issues are extremely penalised, they have probably just spent thousands of €€€ to have at least one shot of having a kid. So they don't have a kid, they have probably spent a bigger amount of their salaries towards a kid that they don't have yet (and might never have) and still get unemployed.

Fair & protecting families, eh?

Yes, it is protecting existing families. As the law is applicable for concrete situations that have to be solved right now, and not in a coulda woulda probably at some point future. And of course, fertility treatment is free in most german health insurances (at least half of the cost has to be covered by law anyway), so there is no significant cost attached to that procedure. The law simply requires to take into account what exists right now, and yes, its aim is to protect kids and families, those that do exist. There is no question about the reason behind the kids being there or not, that is indeed a personal matter, just if they are there, they are to be protected. It is not new by any means, that law has existed for many decades, just the points in approved point systems have changed over times to reflect the increasingly lower number of kids, which makes them more important and therefore valuable. As each european working law is very much different, there are always more thinks to take into account before moving to a country and working there than just the contract itself.

In my country it is actually the same bulls..t. If you have kids, you get all kind of benefits( (not only tax way) also for energy bills, buying properties etc, while ppl like me, singles, have to pay the highest taxes. But what do we get in return? Zip, zero, nada!!! I have to make the ends meet myself If i loose my job, i can not pay the bills nor food on the table. I don't have a partner who is working as well and backing me up. I really would like to call it discrimination and getting more and more irritated about it.

In our system singles are always considered as ppl who don't want to have responsibilities, want to be free, want to party etc etc. In fact our society is more and more shifting to (happy) singles. People who got divorced, people whose partner got passed away, people who really want to find a partner but are simply unlucky , and yes, ppl who prefer to be alone. So it is not that all singles choose to be single. I see a lot in my country that this group of people are simply getting ignored, they are 'non-existing', except if it goes about paying.

Our tax system is not up to date anymore, it is based on the 60's where starting a family is the norm. Well times are changed and i don't see the justification anymore why families should get everything. Like said before, having kids is a choice, but i don't see a reason why i have to pay for that. Yes i do know they will work for your and my pension in the end but we, as a society, are too much depending on our authorities to take care of everything. The current tax system is sometimes tweeked a bit here, a bit there, a bit here. Wrong. It should be reformed and adapted to the current society, meaning that: you want kids, fine you can but you pay yourself for that.

I am a big defender of a flat tax rate system. You wanna work your ass of, good, you get rewarded. You dont want to work more but rather enjoy life? No problem, you won't get punished and pay the same tax percentage. It is a system that allow the working class to choose rather than 'having to'. Taxes will have to be paid for sure but will be spend to the more needy people: sickness, people with a low wage, ppl who got unfit because of an accident, ppl who lost their job etc. The higher your income, the less benefits you get (no matter what your status is!!!!) but because you pay much lower taxes, you can provide yourself more.

Sorry i had to react and defend the 'forgotten' group.

Anyone who dosent have kids should be able to survive easily off of whatever savings they had or reskill until the situation improves, they have the freedom to move anywhere they need to provide a new income. The difference is a few less luxuries in your life compared to someone who NEEDS to provide food and shelter for other people, and society rightly looks after them first. Nobody should have kids if they don't want the responsibility, and the kind of people who are crying above definitely shouldn't have them.

My wife and I would like to have kids, but as long as I still have 85000 euro study debt, and my wife about half that (she is an oncologist) we decided to wait until we both are debt free.
Its comforting reading from you that we are easily able to live from our savings (what savings). And reskill (again, we don’t have the money)
And we need to separate if I take a job elsewhere because she had to buy her way in in the hospital (dutch system is messed up).
dont get me wrong, I am actually in favor of the German system! But your look at things is just wrong.

I think its inevitable that 500 plus easyjet pilots will be made redundant by this June. There will be no recovery of significance this year it just won't happen. Once the govt stop furlough its game over. Lots of bad news RNS will be dropped in March April time how things were worse than expected.

Well. Some thoughts.

UK AOC. Cut to the bone with 3/4 of workforce on various part time contracts.
Germany. CR already affecting the workforce there.
Italy. Base closures. Possibly more redundancy to come but not much.
France. Strong Unions but foresee base closures (like UK) but how many redundacies who knows.

We in the UK have been geared for FTE of bare minimum numbers. But who knows when you have a false postive pandemic and a testing regime which requires those with no symptoms to be tested. Bonkers. If this carries on there will be nothing flying. No tourism industry in Portugal,Spain and Greece and Italy. The end of EU as the rich North throw the poor south to the dogs and they do individual deals with UK to save their economies. Or who the **** knows?

​​​​​​
Remind me, why are the hospitals full and why do some countries have extreme excess mortality if all this is is a false positive pandemic?

Also, with regards to testing: Ever heard of pre-symptomatic spread? It's a real thing. Proven and undisputed amongst the experts. Maybe better stick to posting about things you actually know something about.

Apart from that there’s no planed base-closures in Italy but a large reduction of the fleet in the two smaller bases. France are negotiating a 2 year deal with no reductions but a government supported part-time solution. So whatever thoughts on the subject you might have Douglas, they are not correct..

Brave post Douglas & I too, look around and see a great deal of "bonkers" readily swallowed by the gullible. I was going to leap in with an exhortation to ready yourself for vitreolic attack from the most obvious quarters but, there they were, one after another. For the time being, you, I and many out there still have freedom of expression of views. To the delight of many posters, I fear for curtailment.

No, feel free to express your views but be prepared to be called out when spouting nonsense. That's not to say we should accept everything we are told at face value but many conspiracy theories are just that and toxic as well as dangerous for our society.

Mods: I know this is not exactly on topic but when fake facts are posted it's important to be allowed to counter them.

aviationvictim

9 airplanes out in Italy in 2021, that is roughly 50 FD crew. There is no way -unfortunately- that they will manage to keep everybody.

State support in italy most likely to be extended till April 2022, and hopefully by that time those numbers will come down significantly

Hope they will, but there will be some redundancies for sure, unless easy decides to reboost the aircrafts numbers in Italy for 2022 and that is highly unlikely.

If you say so.

They said the same about the UK, and look what happened there

Never said there would be no redundancies. That is yet to be negotiated. What I did say was there’s no planned base-closures neither in Italy or France. Please read the post before you comment.

Not trying to put words in your mouth, that was my personal comment related to the fleet reduction.

Fingers crossed !

Nice to see the Directors looking after themselves...
 

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e6c7698bf0.png

fair enough. I think we can safely say we all hope for other solutions than redundancies in Italy however difficult that might look at the moment. Strong unions with a strong social system will help the process. Tough times indeed.