Name of Airline:
BA
Aircraft Type
A320
Hours flown
750 hours
Position
FO (FPP) 2 years in.
Salary
32k basic plus around £1500 pcm duty + flight play
Busy all year round at Heathrow around 12 days off per month. At Gatwick it’s very quiet in the winter with around 15+ days off per month

SEBBES,

Thanks for sharing info, looks like you've had a good year given due consideration for the TR deductions.
I personally am against the TR deductions, I really think it should just be training bond contract like most airlines offer, I'm sure TUI would have a lot more applicants if this was the case. But obviously they must be getting the numbers required so I guess the TR deduction will stay in place until otherwise.

My question is, if you join TUI with a B738 rating how long are you frozen on type?
Also if you have a successful bid to change fleet to the 787 will you then be offered a conventional training bond contract? Or despite having time in the company, will there still be a TR deduction?

Thanks again!

Slight thread creep but..
I can only say I completely agree with you. I would be much more in favour of the airline introducing a "traditional bond" - nothing up front but pay X amount if you leave, depreciating over 3 years as an example. The way I had to look at it personally was, even with the deduction, it was a considerable improvement in both pay and lifestyle so it was a very easy decision to make.

Type rated candidates joining are bonded for 1 year at a 7k (total) deduction. Joining non type rated like myself I am fleet frozen for 3 years, so could only bid for 73/78 dual as opposed to 78 only. Type rated candidates who join are fleet frozen for 1 year. My understanding of guys who joined when I did and successfully bid for 73/78, is relatively poor so I can't shed much light on it. If after 3 years I am successful for a 78 only bid there will be no further deduction in salary -that I do know.

As a whole though, despite the deduction its genuinely crazy how little you can work in the winter and what you can earn on a full time contract still. No complaints from me, I haven't flown since the 12th of December and my next flight is 18th of Jan, just as an example.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for reply, appreciate it! :ok: Enjoy being semi-retired in the winter months!

ME3
6yr B787 SFO
880 hrs
Bit over 105K EUR per year net (no taxes here)
Company accommodation provided.
On average 16-18 days OFF per month
Around 4-5 trips a month.

Dom

Irish LCC
B738
Captain (3 years)
Continental EU
5 on 4 off roster (12-16 days off per month)
Total 2019: 735 hours in 229 sectors
Gross: 141k €
Net: 91k € (single no children)
Av Monthly: 7.6k €

Far from US figures but not that bad considering I’m based where I’ve always wanted...

Irish LCC
B738
Captain (Training/Checking and one or two ground duties)
UK
Roster: Weekends off
Total 2019: 570
Gross: £170k

Airline: Titan
Type: A320
Position: FO (1st year)
Salary: £52530 Basic before tax- 5k/ish in allowances/per diems.
Roster: Incredibly varied.
Days off: At least 8 per month, more in winter.
Lots of positioning and night stopping when operating for other carriers out of base, 30 minute standby callouts. Occasional trips, Banjul etc.

WestJet Airlines
CYYC based
Yr. 7/8 B737NG Captain
Totals in CAD currency
Base salary- $187,000
Employee share purchase plan ( tax sheltered in RRSP/TFSA)- $35,700
Stock option/Restricted share unit payout (inflated this year due to ONEX purchase of WJA)- $128,000
Profit share- $7,500
Total 2019 tax-eligible compensation: $358,200
Total 2019 tax-exempt compensation (Per diems/dry cleaning): $8,200
2019 hours flown- 580
2019 credit hours- 950
Worked 132 days after vacation/statutory holiday days taken into account

2020 estimates (more normalized considering the ONEX purchase of WS will not be included. Also years of service now in effect in Collective Agreement eg. year 7 FO upgrades go to yr. 7 Captain, not yr. 1 Captain as before)

Yr. 12 B737NG Captain
Base salary- $209,500
Cash bonus (in lieu of ESPP and stock option grant)- $52,198
Profit share (estimate) - $8,500
Total- $270,198
*Assumption of hours flown to be slightly higher when MAX comes back online*

United SFO 787 CA
salary $425,000 (not including any premium pay)
retirement $68,000
profit sharing (est) $34,000
3 trips per month for 6 months-16 days off
2 trips per month for 6 months-20 days off (vac months)
918 actual flight hours per year
30 flown trips per year

I lived in California for 25 years and made a lot of money on the houses that I lived in but also paid a LOT of state income tax. Two years ago I moved to Nevada and am saving about $4,000 per month in state income tax and living expenses as a result. (Nevada has no state income tax and is a lot cheaper than California.)

Federal income tax in the US is now pretty low under our relatively new federal tax system. I expect it will take about 26% of my salary and profit sharing.

Wow. Know any single American girls?

that is amazing !!! Europe needs to wake up

That’s about £323000.....to fly a plane. As much as I’d like more pay, I find that amount a tad silly

How does an EASA captain with A320 rating get a job in the USA?

Like someone pointed out earlier, we got absolutely raped in the 2000's after 9-11 and bankruptcy. I went from 767 captain to 744 captain in 2004 and was making $187K if you can believe that. We've been making up for lost time for about the last 6-7 years but man! It was ugly in the 2000's.

Can this level of pay and benefits continue? UAL does around $40 billion in sales and nets close to 10% so they're making money hand over fist right now but will it continue? Who knows? Going by past experience, every time it gets this good, the bottom falls out and it all goes to sh!t almost over night so we'll see.

Australia
 

Below is a different perspective.

Australian Major Domestic carrier FO B737 figures in Australian Dollars. 15,000 Total time (mostly jet two crew), degree, 25 years in the industry.

Rough figures:
180,000 before tax (about 155,000 is base rest is rostered overtime)(123,500 USD) (111,500 EUR).
15,000 overnight meal allowances (cash in hand).
18,000 in retirement paid by company per law.
~750 hours.
42 days annual leave.
13x28 day rosters alternating 11/12 days off. Roster comes out a week before it starts.
Mainly 4 sector exhausting days with a significant number of overnights.
Min rest is 12 hours can reduce to 10, 15 at home base.
Food on board varies sometimes good sometimes bad I bring my own back up food.
Lounge entry (unlimited food bev) on long ground turns.
Overtime at roster publish protected (cancelled or changed flights won’t cause a loss of cash going sick/fatigued will).
Hotels mid range.
Little to no progression mainly seniority based.
No commuting rights.
Staff travel pretty good.
Can work extra days if so inclined.
Generally rostered to max duty minus 15-30 minutes for most duties.

After tax per month it comes
to about about $10,500 (7200 USD) (6500 EUR) a month Captains are about $14,000.

The cost of living exceptionally high. Median house price in my area is $8-900,000 and I’m well out of the city nothing flash. Base model European car is $50,000. Credit card bill for a family probably $8000 a month. Everyone has a base level medical insurance from the government (medical system is pretty good). Most pilots and professionals would have private health cover on top. Public school is rubbish, Catholic a few thousand a year Private very expensive and quite commonly the choice for professionals. If you lose your job and have any money/assets you use all that up then unemployment scheme which would barely buy food. A lot of wives work but childcare is again exceptionally expensive so if her wage isn’t high then it’s barely worth it. My wife has to work a few days to stay ahead but we are hardly on struggle street.

Major domestic pilots are above the average wage but not by far for FO’s. Trades would be on about 100, Doctors starting at 2-300k. Police 90 Teachers/Nurses about 100 Hospitality about 50, Regional jet FO about 110.

Tax system sounds similar to EU, Massive above $180,000 and above $250,000 (Capt) they hit their retirement $ as well with a bill in the mail. Each election the top end of earners get punched with some new scheme.

Country running on debt highest on the planet. Borrowed time... (massive personal debt home loans and credit card). People have been living beyond their means for about 20 years. Eating out all the time, going for multiple coffees everyday. No recession in 30 years people have no concept of a downturn.

The crunch is coming as the workers can’t foot the aged pension (government) bill and it’s about to get ugly in the next few years. (Read more and more levies taxes for professionals).
Ageing population getting bigger and bigger. Large (massive) influx of foreigners to keep growth going as there’s nothing else holding the place up.


There is a wages thread in the Australian forum. Reasonably accurate doesn’t get updated much. Most wage negotiations involve trading and generally you can expect 1.5-3%. Jetstar are having a stoush over it at the moment as I believe they’ve had a new rostering system introduced that has them now doing overnights. Tiger their competitor received large pay rises but are part of the much less profitable Virgin Group.

Please explain how this is possible when the top FO rate on B787 is $240/hr according to airlinepilotcentral.com.

I think he means CA (captain) based in San Francisco (SFO) !!!!!

Correct. In the US they tend to abbreviate captain CA and not CPT. Also, I don't think Senior FO (SFO) is much of a thing there.

Ah of course, my bad. I was thinking CA was California!

It still seems higher than I expected for $352/hr and no premium pay. But I’m not sure exactly what premium pay is, maybe it doesn’t mean getting double time for certain trips which would boost the salary.

What an incredible package, on all accounts it’s MULTIPLES of that of a UK captain. What a pity British born people can’t apply for the green card lottery!

I feel unfortunately Europe will never be like this. We have companies that can operate and recruit across the vastly different economies of the EU, yet the unions are all divided and country specific.

Airline: Private
Type: G650
Hours Flown: 600
Salary: $19,500 (@£15,000 month tax free)
Roster: Commuting. No fixed roster, generally 2 weeks on/off. Lots of last minute trips, changes, etc. Mainly very long legs & min rest. We plan & manage the aircraft amongst 5 pilots. Probably spend 4 nights commuting a month.
No pension, no medical, no LOL & no 13th month anymore.
I miss the airlines, the grass isn’t always greener!

I’ve been meaning to ask. What exactly is a “senior FO” in Europe, and how do his/her rights and responsibilities differ from that of a “junior FO”?

Are captains also separated the same way?

In the US, senior captain or FO is merely an informal way to describe your relative seniority.

It just means they're on a different pay and have, on occasion at my airline atleast, slightly changed responsibilities. An upgrade from FO to SFO used to increase crosswind limits (although that has been harmonised now) and in my old base, SFOs were allowed to land on an pretty odd runway off an Surveillance Radar Approach. Those are the only two limitations/differences I can think of between the ranks although both of those have gone (the runway I mentioned is now a taxiway!).

In reality, it's just a difference in terms and conditions (which is what I assume is what you were really getting at). A lot of the new airlines (LOCOs etc) don't have yearly pay scales, at mine, there is 3 ranks before captain. Second Officer, First Officer and Senior First Officer. Someone that joins the airline (easyjet) with experience might enter as an FO or an SFO, though a cadet will join as SO. It takes 3 years to be made SFO from joining so that's not really that long. Pay (in USD for you) is around 65k as an SO, 91k as an FO and 105k as an SFO meaning a pilot with 3 years and perhaps 2500hrs is on $105. One rather crap feature of their contract at my outfit is the SO doesn't get any sector pay, although I've included a rough estimate for sector pay based on a typical number of annual hours (~750). Whilst I feel that after 3 years, that's a decent salary for the UK, it does mean that a career FO (SFO) is never going to earn much more than $105k although after year 3 performance and loyalty bonuses kick in too which might add another 10-15 percent.

The terms aren't world leading but personally, I was satisfied with my lot when I was an FO. When I joined 8 years ago, the starting salary for a cadet pilot was $20k so $65k during my RHS tenure, improvement was rapid, although still needs sector pay for it to feel vaguely fair.

Captains aren't seperated in that way at my airline nor any I can think of. Seniority means nothing at all, no extra leave, no first dibs at vacation/flight bidding, nothing. The salary stays the same, although a lot go part time. The only other thing is loyalty bonuses change, <5 years-5%, 5-9 years 10% and >10 years 15%. Nobody would ever mention seniority like would be discussed at a legacy as it's simply irrelevant.

SFOs are usually used for long haul ops. The SFO takes the left seat while the Captain rests.

Thanks for that detailed write-up. Definitely a very different system.

Stateside, even long haul is just captain or FO.

Drifting, but how long do you have to spend as SO now, because until recently the number was around four years. ~1yr flexi, 1yr SO, 2yrs FO (and >2500hrs).

Also, no one who joined since (I think) 2013 has had a loyalty bonus as an FO.

/pedantosaurus

I must be misunderstanding your post.
Am I correct in thinking you work 26 weeks (2 weeks On/Off) per year for almost USD$20,000 per month (tax free)? And you miss working for an airline?
In my country, to take home that much money I would have to earn over Half a Million Dollars ($600,000 actually) per year. And to earn that much I would have to fly 100hrs per month, work 6 days per week to acheive those hours. And still require a 20% payrise. Oh, and only have 6 weeks leave per year. I don't know which lush green paddocks you have been feeding in over your flying career, but....

As someone who wants to quit airline flying for a Corporate job, can you please elaborate on what part of airline flying you miss?, or why you are not happy in your current role?

In my orange airline based in Europe I spent 18 months as SO, done about 23 months as an FO and will shortly be an SFO once I have 2,500 hours. my 5% loyalty kicked in on my third anniversary as per contract

I’ve forgotten that ‘Europe’ covers a lot of different contracts, haven’t I?! Apologies...

JetBlue (US based LCC)
8. months A320 FO + 4 Months E190 CA (4th year)
US$185K Gross + 15% company retirement contrib. = $213K Total gross (not including. $6K per diem)
$43K Tax (including Social security, Medicare, federal and state Income) = $170K net
450 block hours (2 months offline for upgrade training), very few premium trips = average 17 days off per month

Profit Sharing $0.00 in spite of company earning $800 Million in profit.

Do not underestimate the costs of private pension, medical and LOL. A quite big chunk might go to that. He probably also has activities unrelated to flying, mostly when it comes to managing the planes and stuff.

But yeah, I do agree, he has a pretty nice deal and unless he flew for a very comfy airline most of his career, I can't see why he regrets it.

Similar attitude to BA then, only with BA the profit is even more extreme, into the Billions.

Sorry about the confusion. I didn’t realize there was a senior FO position (SFO) and I can see how you’d think I was talking about San Fran, Calif (CA).

As far as the pay, I am pretty senior but that salary is based on $352/hour.

SFO-SIN pays 32 hrs plus 5 hrs of FAR117 extension pay. I do 2 of those and 1 other 3 or 4 day trip that pays around 25 for a total of 99 hours per month.

In the 6 vacation months, I only have to fly the 2 SIN trips.

They match 16% of our salary and put it in the retirement account (not taxed). Profit sharing is just under 8% this year and IS taxed.

You can make more money by dropping your awarded trips and picking up premium pay trips if they become available. They pay either 150, 175 or 200% depending on how desperate they are.

I’m doing my taxes now and in 2019 I made taxable income of 495k and will pay 121k federal tax. No state income tax in Nevada.

What a blessing!! Can I marry you? 🤪

To take this conversation on a tangent. How is it that on the 2 sides of the Atlantic, particularly the U.K. the pay scales are so vastly vastly different.

I assume it’s because the US has a stable cost of living which is reflected in the pay , whilst in Europe pilots that are used to being poorly paid in Eastern Europe come to BA or Easy etc.... and think the pay is unbelievable compared to the previous airlines, therefore they don’t strike .
just a simple thought process from me , I’m sure I might get some flak for it

I honestly don’t know hence the question. When was the last major strike in US airlines?

Same as every job. Supply and demand....

Pre-Colgan and 1500 hour rule (plus 65 year old retirement) regional pilots getting paid nothing, majors doing alright but pay cut after pay cut assuming you didn’t get furloughed.

You can argue til the cows come home whether cadets make better pilots but it’s pretty undeniable that by lowering the barriers to entry the price of pilot labour goes through the floor. Hardly helps the cadet either when they spend the first few years wages on training.

Supply Vs Demand and cadet labour are all valid arguments, but increasingly our poor situation in Europe in the face of increasing living costs is due to freedom of movement in Europe.

Wet lease/charter operators like Smartlynx, Avion, Enter Air, TravelService and previously Small Planet (combined 100 aircraft) pay a fixed circa €90k (that's Euros) or GBP75k for captains. They simply wouldn't be able to crew their flights out of UK, Germany and Scandinavia (where they do 90% of their business) if it wasn't for the thousands of Eastern European pilots from Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland who take up those jobs. Those guys pay next to no tax and have their hotel accommodation is paid for wherever they operate in Europe. When they return home for their blocks off they usually retreat to a mansion in the countryside. The Western European pilots usually already live close to their bases so don't get an accommodation allowance and pay about 35% tax on the €90k / £75k. It's not a level playing field.

I don't see this changing after Brexit, if anything the CAA will give these operators the green light to continue operating as it would be seen as a Business to Business agreement between the tour operators or the airlines sub chartering work. We are a completely divided and de-unionised workforce thanks to Big Europe.