Seniority
 

Has seniority had its day?
We stay loyal to a seniority based airline, and then the bean counters, squeeze the lemon to tight and then hundreds of experienced pilots hit the skids.
Experienced Captains and FO’s with thousands of hours scramble for jobs.
A captain then has to consider going to the bottom of a seniority based list behind a newbie from flight school and likewise for the experienced FO, or to head East to work in some sh1t hole. Or go through selection for a fictitious job, and swim for all your life in the hope that some HR bod will email you before you go skint.
Being loyal had its boundaries years ago but not now. Seniority for my money has had its day.
LHS 320

If you read this article it appears to show TUI specifically offering positions to TCX Captains - maybe a new reality?

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articl...-million-seats

Read Earnest Gann's "Fate is the Hunter". He decided to get out of the airline industry when he flew with a First Officer who was much older ("[he] had been flying when I was in knee pants") and immensely more experienced than him. "... beside me sat a man victimised by the numbers, else he would never have been my co-pilot." Failed business skill had put this pilot who was legendary for his flying ability into the right hand seat and "The most simple arithmetic argued against his flying as captain again until he was a hundred years old."

Skill and experience count for absolutely nothing when seniority comes into play. Pilots consider themselves to be 'professionals' but can anyone name any professional vocation where your place, starting from the bottom, is rigidly dictated by 'the numbers' (seniority). Doctors? Lawyers? Engineers? 'Seniority' is a trap used by management to ensure 'loyalty' and pilots fall for it like fools. Until the management screw up and that whole seniority-based job pyramid is shattered and those pilots find that other managements' seniority systems are now working against them. Captains are by far the biggest victims of 'the numbers', once their 'number' is shattered they are nobodies and "behind a newbie from flight school". A 'seniority number' is a shackle that will condemn you to nobody-ness once the dice of business (loaded by incompetent management, external fanatics, or too many other factors) land the wrong way.

Modern airlines tend not to use seniority.

If I recall correctly, when Monarch met its demise Tui pulled a similar PR stunt, I think they took a grand total of around 4 pilots in the end, with experienced captains being declined an interview... DEC was not an option, and nowhere in that article above does it say that the captains being given the opportunity to work for TUI would be employed as Captains.

TUI were advertising for 'pilots' prior to the bankruptcy of Thomas cook and it took more than a precursory glance at the advertisement and terms to realise that they were, in fact, recruiting for FO positions only.

Im going to make a controversial point here. The removal of seniority would benefit the industry greatly, in todays world seniority is little more than 'golden handcuffs' that prevents the movement of experienced pilots and in many cases rewards mediocrity, whilst also allowing an airline to gain experienced guys very cheaply. Without it a pilot could freely sell his skill and experience in search of the highest bidder or airline with the most favourable Ts and Cs, Of course the guys at the top of the list are probably less favourable to this than those languishing in the middle or bottom.. but overall if one was towards the top of the list, that would imply a large measure of experience, which with the demise of seniority would mean you would possess a very marketable quality.

it exists in hardly any other industry, and by maintaining it the pilot community as a whole is maintaining a rod for it's own back that ultimately, aside from 'the few' who happened to be in the right airline at the right time', causes an industry wide 'cap' of terms and conditions.

and those "modern" airlines tend to have conditions way worse than the legacy carriers that ALL are still seniority based. Also, every pilot union supports seniority, management would rather be able to offer individual contracts and have the pilots bid down to get the job. Skill and experience get you the job, from then on, you can only do your job the way the company wants you to do it. Yes, we should all be the best pilot we can be, but for a lawyer or stock trader the incentive to outdo his colleagues works, for us it doesn't necessarily. For all it's flaws, seniority works better than the alternative.

easyjet and a few others would like a word...

Would BA be going through all this turmoil now if their pilots could up sticks and leave for better pastures? The industry has changed from 'back in the day', one can't reasonably and realistically expect to start at an airline and finish there 30 years later... that security is no longer there, so seniority is meaningless and beneficial in only one direction. The fact that unions support it is neither here nor there. The whole point of this thread is that there needs to be a change in the 'status quo' and I welcome it.

Agreed. Benefits no one but those who have more than likely, quite happily, watched the erosion of terms and conditions of those beneath them, as they were 'alright'...

Looking at it objectively, it would seem to me that seniority must push down T&Cs for pilots. If people felt able to pick up and transfer to another, better paying, airline then surely there would be more pressure on airlines to offer competitive pay. As it is, most of us are trapped in our current roles and subjected to the all encompassing zero costs mindset that pervades this industry. Many copilots in my outfit are more than qualified for Command but stay where they are because the seniority system has trapped them.
We consider ourselves to be professionals and often compare ourselves to Doctors, Lawyers etc. I can't think of any profession where they have a seniority system. A Doctor doesn't change hospital to start out as a junior houseman all over again, because that would be ludicrous. The system we have is a hangover from the military (and even they have adopted a relative meritocracy these days) and it would be better for us if it went. After all, there's a reason that airlines hang on to Seniority these days: it isn't because it benefits pilots...

Never a truer word spoken

Perhaps those who fell for the low-cost expansion, quick command, Emirates transfer is now paying the price for their decisions. I left low-cost command, joined a career airline (with seniority!) at the bottom, took a huge pay cut. But it got me where I wanted to be in life. I'd be utterly miffed of some top gun of my age, with a few thousand hours 777 command, would join as DEC. I served my time, stood down the money and now it's pay back time.

Not sure what you base your allegation that seniority drive down T&C. On the contrary, seniority airlines often have group of pilots who don't move. They don't vote with their feet, they take the fight. And they're not all going bankrupt, if that's your next argument.

For those loosing their jobs due to bankruptcy (such as Thomas Cook), I sympathize. But it doesn't warrant to give up the whole seniority bit. Life is full of gambles, some which are beyond your control.

Seniority is the best of a difficult conundrum. I saw the nepotism and old boys network in the Military and previous airline.
Best trips, every weekend, Bank Holidays off, promotion due to influence by a best mate etc. etc.
Seniority is only part of your advancement. You still have to pass the subsequent promotional process. ie ability and suitability.
As an FO with the qualifications for promotion and some years under my belt, I would be really pi...d to have a DEC slot in above me just because he is perhaps cheaper or has a few more hours.
The "I was a Special Forces Hercules Captain syndrome" or similar sentiments, shouldn't get you promoted above suitable, but perhaps less experienced colleagues!

Seniority has had its use in days gone by...
Aviation, business models and airline businesses have changed, time to update and remove this nuisance stance.

In most jobs, outside of aviation, progression up the career ladder is done on suitability, experience and loyalty.
Seniority is only based on the last, excluding many of the experienced unfortunates whose job was taken away against their choice.
Seniority requires those very highly experienced pilots to be chucked into the pool of (relatively) inexperienced jobseekers, with no opportunity due age of gaining a position held for many years prior, while young inexperienced joiners are able to take these jobs well before them.

It is not a crew members' fault if a company joined in good faith and with a long standing reputation in the business goes under.
It should not be a further burden to the crew member being unable to find a suitable similar job afterwards due to seniority.
Airlines have not always been open for joining, times changed, in seniority has no place in a modern work environment.

I am sure, legacy carrier pilots who benefit from seniority will disagree with me on this though

Seniority is not popular amongst aspirational young pilots in a growing airline.
Imagine what happens when the hard times arrive and people need to be laid off. Who chooses who for the chop?
This has happened before and arbitrary methods like closing bases and chopping entire fleets, with the attendant disruption to the remaining staff, are used. Demotions based on....what exactly?
Beware of what you wish for.

Doesn't seem to be an issue in any other non seniority based profession?

All these people talking about and not having a problem with 'starting again at the bottom' are a fine example of how closed minded this industry can be. If you weren't tied to a company as a result of seniority, you wouldn't have to start again, and just because because you experienced it in the past doesn't mean it should be experienced again by others going forwards... For example, did I have to pay for my training? Yes. If the industry somehow changed to allow people to train without having to pay would I consider that acceptable? Yes. Just because I did it that way doesn't mean an alternative wouldn't be beneficial to the industry as a whole. Quite a lot of 'greasing the pole' going on here, which is the whole reason this thread exists.

If you can't see that seniority suppresses a natural increase in terms and conditions, and that free movement between companies (this happens every day in 'normal employment' by the way) would encourage companies to make themselves attractive, and would also ensure that they were attracting the right people, then I'm afraid there is no hope for this game... Do you think Ryanair and its ilk would be able to ride roughshod over its pilots if they had the option to vote with their feet?

With regards to the arguments quoting 'nepotism'... I hate to break it to you, but occupying a number on a list doesn't guarantee you a command or anything near it, even if it is 'your turn'. The methods and means of preventing promotion can, and still does, exist even within the confines of seniority. I've seen it first hand in action.

Seniority is for the benefit of 'the few' at the cost of 'the many'.... I can't think of a single downside for the industry to rid itself of this burden, people here who are praising seniority are only doing so thinking only of themselves and as an individual... Which coincidentally is why the piloting profession and prospects, unless you are lucky, is in such a state. "I'm alright Jack" springs to mind.


EDIT: from a redundancy point of view, if a company goes to the wall seniority is meaningless anyway. i can tell you some stories regarding what protection people thought seniority gave them and what the reality was.

I wrote: Perhaps those who fell for the low-cost expansion, quick command, Emirates transfer is now paying the price for their decisions. I left low-cost command, joined a career airline (with seniority!) at the bottom, took a huge pay cut. But it got me where I wanted to be in life. I'd be utterly miffed of some top gun of my age, with a few thousand hours 777 command, would join as DEC. I served my time, stood down the money and now it's pay back time.

Care to comment? Do you think it's fair to have a Emirates, Turkish or even Easyjet expat who has earned $$$ more than me come home and join as a DEC? Just because "they want to come home"? There is no need for DEC anyway where I work. We're not short of suitable candidates.

Seniority should never be looked at as a stand alone issue. In any airline worth working for you need a seniority list with associated rules on how you get onto it. Then there is the Ops Manual Part A, B and D covering all the SOPs, training and checking procedures so everything is transparent from the outset of how you get to the LHS. Then you need decent and independent training and checking departments, a bidding system with associated rules on who gets a shot at the title and an ombudsman to oversee any issues that might arise and need adjudication.

Its not perfect but I would rather that than the short term view of DECs, threats of base closures, bidding for your command and naming a price that goes on in certain bottom feeders.

Not an issue? Hmmm try discussing that with my wife who has just gone through such a process in a non-seniority environment. The skulduggery going on in the background as everyone tries to protect their position was bitter and the after effects are enduring. At least with LIFO everyone knows where they stand.
Your EDIT point is, of course, correct. And I say that as a former TCX pilot!

Legacy airlines with seniority systems do go bust. Pan Am, Swissair, Sabena.

There are two seats in the front of an aeroplane. One for the Captain, one for the First Officer. That means that on average a pilot spends half of his/her career as a First Officer and half as a Captain. As the airline industry is expanding, the odds are for more time as a Captain. With or without seniority.

With seniority, the Captains in airlines that go bust are effectively thrown on the rubbish dump with other pilots sitting smug with their 'number' thinking "I'm alright, Jack".

Without seniority, those Captains could get jobs elsewhere. Yes, it might put back some First Officer's promotion, but that First Officer will know that when he eventually gets his command he/she will be doing so with the knowledge that if their airline went bust one day they could also have the opportunity to try for a Captain position elsewhere, rather than being thrown out on the rubbish dump.

With seniority, a Captain's position in this industry is extremely precarious.

And Pilots do move from airlines with seniority to airlines without. Some have got to realise that seniority is not the 'B'-all-and-end-all in this industry. Lifestyle, job satisfaction, being treated to show that you are valued, etc., etc., etc., are all more important and the airlines who will take them on without the boot of seniority holding them down will gain from having those pilots.

Seniority is a selfish system.

172 driver, maybe crossed wires, and my post wasn't addressing your's in particular, more the underlying theme of the thread.

If the Emirates, Easy or turkish guy is better at his job (I'm not saying they are of course) I'd have to say... well yes that would be fair, as that or a similar option would be available to you as well if seniority didnt exist? The picture you paint is only unfair in a system where seniority exists. Without a seniority based system you could go where you please at no cost to yourself and walk right into a new company at the same level or near enough.

Macdo, my sincerest sympathies regards TCX, been in the same boat. a few times now.

With regards to the other part you wrote, I take your point and it is true you know where you stand... But also reiterate my point that often seniority rewards mediocrity, simply coasting along for years in the same company shouldn't be worth as much, when there are maybe people wanting positions who are far more able. Some people are high on a seniority list only by virtue of the fact that no one else would have them (captain and FO alike). Nepotism does exist that is true, but companys such as easyjet don't seem to struggle with it and I believe (anecdotally and generally) they tend to pick the right people for the job, all without a seniority list in sight.

Furthermore would you say it is a fairer system then ,that in 'normal' workplace environment that you'd be comfortable if person A was given the chop even though they were better at their job, purely based on the fact that person B was there longer but not as productive?

In my former airline it came as quite a shock to one or two who believed that, as they had been there 5 years automatically meant they should be a captain and likewise there were guys who would have been fantastic captains but were blocked by those above who were often less able.... furthermore there were FO's who had done little else but keep a seat warm, yet in many circumstances were paid more than a captain, purely because of how long they had been there.

Seniority is far from a perfect system. Without it there are injustices yes, but no more unjust than the other way, except one restricts and the other allows movement, which would be in all pilots favour. The guys on a seniority list near the top would be where they want so wouldn't have to worry as surely if they had been there that long they'd be pretty proficient?

edited to add: if you want to see how much seniority 'protects' people, have a swing over to the TUI recruitment thread. Seniority works when it is the company's favour and for those at its apex... I wonder how many TUI captains and union reps will be going in to bat for the FO's who have been patiently waiting for their command 'according to the seniority list'...

In short...YES...the sooner the seniority system dies the better for pilots worldwide. It’s a terrible system that belongs back in the 60s and 70s.

If he or she is better qualified than you/me for the job, then yes.

And what if it's a good mate of theirs at the company that says they are a better pilot? Saw this a load of times in a previous career.People still fail command courses despite doing 15+ years in the right hand seat.

I can see both sides. I have reasonable seniority , meant nothing when my last airline went bust.

I’d only go elsewhere as a captain - I’ve done 15 years of it now and can’t see me with two stripes again , I just enjoy it much more.

That said it would be abroad , I fully understand why the virgin and BA FOs play the long game for considerably better money eventually.

Tell all the pilots at BA, VS, LH, AF, KLM, IB, SAS, QS, etc. that they will be better off without seniority.
And US legacies as well. And even US low cost.

How would that work for airlines with 14,000 to 15,000 pilots ? We have a few here in the US.

And how would it be decided what pilot is "better" than the other 10,000+ to be evaluated for employment when moving from Airline A to Airline B...on an individual contract ?

The concept of a national seniority number to accommodate some of the issues raised in this thread has been floated here a few times among ALPA-represented carriers. It got nowhere.

You probably find that the posters above who are in favour of a seniority based system are working for seniority based airlines and the ones against it aren't working for a seniority based airline or are not content with their current employer.

Belonging to the former group I do really appreciate a seniority system having worked for an airline without seniority system before. In that airline there was zero transparency and the general feeling was DEC were (at the time, I've no idea how things are these days) prioritised over internal upgrades. In order to lure DEC in they were given the base of choice. First officers lucky enough to pass the upgrade (less then 25% at the time while the chances were significantly better if you had flew for the right RAF or Navy squadron if that by itself wasn't already enough for DEC) were directed to the less popular bases to show their loyalty.

In my current airline because of seniority things are very transparent. I probably took a hit career wise to join my current outfit in return for job stability (I've been trough an airline bankruptcy once and the charter/holiday airlines in the UK don't have a very impressive track record with regards to survivability). As 172_driver mentioned before I would therefor not be impressed if (hypothetical since as 172_driver already said there is no need for DEC were I work and it is even less likely that we ever say goodbye to the seniority system) the ones who elected career progression above job stability jumped the list as DEC. They are more than welcome to join but only at the bottom of the seniority list with the corresponding rank.

LIFO as a means of determining redundancy is currently legal, but, it is open to legal challenge which hasn't been successfully done yet. It was last deemed legal after an agreement to put a bias into the system to allow proportional amounts of males/females to be made redundant.

I wonder what is so special about aviation industry in terms of career development.

Reading this thread one may have an impression that only seniority gives transparent way of career progression. Otherwise we have that grey area of nepotism, lack of transparency and alike.
How come in any other industry it is totally normal that you oprogress gaining expirience, proving you're better than your peers and have skillset required for next step on the ladder?

I read "Fate is the Hunter" as a teenager and it was beyond me even back then how idiotic that system is. Honestly, I thought it had long gone in '50 or maybe '60. I was extremely suprised when I learned it is totally normal even now and there are people supporting it.

With all respect - I work in IT and cannot even think how my industry would look like if we would have seniority system. How come incompetent idiot flying for 5 yrs in one company is in better position than supersmart and skilled captain with 20 years behind his belt but simply decided to change employer? Does this have anything to do with HR in XXI century?

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The difficulty is that how do you grade a pilot? There are very few ways for a company to list its flight deck according to how competent they are. You can take results and comments of Sim scores of course, but even in my very fair airline there are trainers who offer better scores than others, so it would be luck of the draw. Of course the cream always rises to the top, but how do know that Pilot A coming from Airline A had the same level of scrutiny from their TRE's as you do in your airline?

Any other way to judge a pilot is flawed - OTP, Fuel carriage tables etc. We work as a 2 person crew, punishing or rewarding based on these factors would not be fair, especially for an FO trying to change jobs. Not that any airline would ever release OTP figures for their employees anyway. Basing your "value" on an interview process with Sim check wouldn't be fair either - i'm sure we all know excellent pilots that have failed interviews, and poor ones who have passed.

The only other method I can think of is to look at number and content of ASR's submitted to see how "safe" they are (again something no airline would release anyway). What a terrible idea that would be - I for one wouldn't put in safety reports if it was going to compromise a potential future airline change.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. I think seniority systems are flawed and restrict movement - but the current alternative also has it's issues. One thing I do think should change (and this won't be a popular opinion) is we should remove pay scales. The fact a 15 year pilot gets paid more than a 1 year one in the same role discourages airlines from wanting to make an environment that makes people want to stay - its cheaper for them to have a CP and FO both at the lower end of the pay scale. The aircraft still gets to the same destination from their point of view. It also stops us as pilots from pushing for better pay as we get an automatic pay rise each year we are in the company anyway.

This has been fun to read but I laugh at your useless opinions. Its not going to change.

Similar to the thread in JB about the other "S..." word, this one Seniority is also intended to be a helpful tool for the benefit of the employed folk, creating a stable intra-company environment. Yet it may twist and bend at the coal face of reality, sometimes well beyond its intended use and could become just a deadweight which will not serve its purpose well even in push came to shove. Pardon the analogy.

The discussion of whether or not we'd be better of without it will depend on what is the (non?)-implementation in the individual work environments, and what are the problems we hope to solve with it.

It is a multi-faceted device.

Salary steps.
Sick leave bank.
Career progression opportunities
- traing assignments
- fleet changes
- CAPT upgrades
Choice of base.
Leave allocation priority
Part-time contracts, extended parenting leave
Job protection in downsizing.
LOAw/pP
Rejoining options.
Pension fund and share allocation schemes.
Early retirement

Even at companies who formally do not have a Seniority system, the rules for a great number of the above would be based on the Day of Joining or similar.

No unique thoughts from me, save for one that was voiced already but I would like to join explicitly: If someone thinks seniority clause would provide protection based on LIFO during official and formal process of redundancies, and that will withstand the scrutiny at Court / Employment tribunal (continental EU rules, admittedly), a massive shock might be coming.

If you listen closely to what were the airline closures and downsizings of the past decade, LIFO decisions are typically avoided by the companies themselves in order to avoid protracted litigations, revocation, reinstallments and compensation damages.

Judging from the airline names, I would guess most of you are European. I left for the US almost 2 decades ago (family reasons). All carriers here are seniority based with union. There is not a change that will change. Also T&C's here at all the LCCs (at this moment) vastly better than at all LCCs in the EU. Because we can only do our job just as good as the next guy (SOP) seniority makes sense, having a union prevents other pilots from undercutting pay. The results speak for themselves.