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Originally Posted by Newcomer2
(Post 10479170)
12 years in the industry and 7000h, from turboprops to jets, never paid for a type rating, I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about. 3500 to 4000 euros flying a widebody is a disgrace, period. As somebody said earlier, a widebody FO would make quite a bit more. |
Originally Posted by hans brinker
(Post 10478967)
Second year FO pay on widebody in the USA is around $175/hr. You will be paid about 1000hr/yr, get another 16% in your pension plan account and about 10% (depends on carrier) in profit sharing. You will pay about 35% tax totsl on your taxable income (pension is before tax). comes out to about €13,000.= per month after tax.
A part o that they created a LCC Iberia Express, opening a big conflict with their pilots. so now IBX is stuck and salaries stay the same. But being honest we all know that if they don’t do that they will continue in red numbers and being un unprofitable company. sadly but we all must accept the reality |
Originally Posted by MCDU2
(Post 10478700)
Our new joiners (non type rated) are on mid 40s (euros) before the extras such as sector pay. Bit more if they are typed. They get by in Ireland which is one of the most heavily taxed countries in Europe. As a long haul FO in Iberia I would assume you can live in the back arse of just about anywhere in continental Europe subject to their on call rules and 4k would go a long way. Its certainly a hell of a lot better than any TP operator would pay you and you won't be on it for long out of your 20-30 year career. You join a legacy for the career prospects, fleet, command, seniority agreements, pension, union recognition, CV, staff travel etc. Go LCC if you want to earn money straight off the bat but it will quickly plateau and you will then be staring across the ramp at the legacies wondering what could have been as you will be in a financial position where you cannot "afford" to downsize back to year 1 at a legacy. Have met so many people that wish they would have left a LCC after 18 months but never did and now can't shift to somewhere where they can move their careers along.
One doesn’t join a legacy carrier to “get by” or to live in “the back arse of Europe. Air France, KLM and Lufthansa seem like the only decent legacy carriers left in Europe. The big 3 in the US are on a level above that again. |
You join a legacy for the career prospects, fleet, command, seniority agreements, pension, union recognition, CV, staff travel etc. At some European "legacy" carriers the sort of items listed above are under attack as never before, and IMHO there is increasing validity in the POV that it's better to take the money and potentially rapid advancement with a LCC now than banking on joining a "legacy" at the bottom of a large seniority list simply because jam is being promised tomorrow... |
I don’t really understand how there is people in here trying to convince the rest that 4000€ Flying for a legacy carrier on a long haul plane is good money.
Because of this people, conditions in Europe just went down and will keep doing so, that shows how much they value themselves I suppose...... |
Originally Posted by Solenoid
(Post 10480896)
I don’t really understand how there is people in here trying to convince the rest that 4000€ Flying for a legacy carrier on a long haul plane is good money.
Because of this people, conditions in Europe just went down and will keep doing so, that shows how much they value themselves I suppose...... in Spain the problem is that is a nice country to live with high quality of life and unfourtunetly lot of Spanish are far away and wants to come. Is not Iberia, is just the fuel prices, and competitor LCC that makes Legacy careers unprofitable. Look Lufthansa results they lost hundred of millions. So if Iberia for example put a salary of let say 7000 nets, the company would go to bankrupt. I think that is the key. We all are guilty because we accept !!!!ty conditions, from LCC careers pilot till Iberia pilots. That is the !!!!ty aviation we have now and Spain. |
There's a lot of talk here suggesting it's somehow acceptable for LCC pilots to be paid less. I'll ask these questions:
Does Boeing charge a LCC less for a 737 because it's a LCC? Do fuel providers charge a LCC less for Jet A because the company's a LCC? Does your CAA allow less regulation because the company's a LCC? Why do pilots think they should give the company a discount? |
Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10480948)
Does Boeing charge a LCC less for a 737 because it's a LCC?
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Originally Posted by pudoc
(Post 10480964)
In fact, yes they do. Boeing is very happy to make nice little deals with large low cost airlines who will buy a bulk order of 100+ jets whilst smaller non-low cost airlines don't see the discounts because their purchasing power is less.
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10480948)
There's a lot of talk here suggesting it's somehow acceptable for LCC pilots to be paid less. I'll ask these questions:
Does Boeing charge a LCC less for a 737 because it's a LCC? Do fuel providers charge a LCC less for Jet A because the company's a LCC? Does your CAA allow less regulation because the company's a LCC? Why do pilots think they should give the company a discount? So it's the pilots who have allowed the companies to impose these low wages on them. Take or leave it. The pilots didn't want or dare to fight for their T&C's. And how come pilots at US legacies and LCC's enjoy much better salaries? |
That's probably a complex question to answer, and I won't pretend to be able to answer it fully, but it probably has something to do with the fact that the vast majority of legacy and LCC pilots have turbine experience (usually as a captain) before they get into an A320 or 737. A LCC or legacy pilot will typically have had at least 2 jobs prior to joining the company. They have experience, and little appetite for poor pay and work rules.
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on the upside due to LCC many many more people are flying these days compared to 30 years ago, and that means many more pilot jobs in more planes! So pay has gone down, but at least there are jobs.. 30 years ago large flag carriers such as BA could largely fill the cockpit with military retirees and a few cadets..
G |
Originally Posted by groundbum
(Post 10482583)
So pay has gone down, but at least there are jobs..
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Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 10482611)
Sounds a bit like the argument some union reps have been known to roll out when the membership get a bit restless with their lot.
At the end company is back to the same size and conditions are even worse. |
Iberia has started to call for the knowledge and listening Assestment. good luck!! |
Originally Posted by samca
(Post 10486490)
Iberia has started to call for the knowledge and listening Assestment. good luck!! Thx. |
Originally Posted by smthngdffrnt
(Post 10486885)
Nothing here. Samca, What profiles are being selected?
Thx. |
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