Lets not forget, PTF can be sneakily hidden beneath the veneer of high course cost and reduced initial salary.

And yes there are a number of companies in the UK trying to steal an edge on the decent operators by maximising the utilisation of this sharp practice.

There is an opinion that both are driving the whole effect downwards, and dragging the decent operators with them, it is clear to see that the blue propoganda is much more transparent in this particular area than the orange.

I think we should not forget those (56-58 years old) retired legacy carrier pilots "stealing" our jobs, blocking the flow of new entries.:=

If they need the money, make it somewhere else, if it is because they "love to fly", start flying doctors and food around in Africa!

And no, i don´t support P2F either!

Bit out of date, mate. Nigels can stay on till 65 now to cover their various alimony payments....

Turkish Delight - given that lovely solicitor who takes a half page ad in the BALPA magazine every month advertising her divorce, pension protection and child access services that would be lots of them :{

Wouldnt that be blocking the brand new PPs from getting their first gig??
Maybe you should go out there,learn how to fly and then complain about experienced pilots willing to continue flying longer because A they still love it and/or B the new Aston is out.:E

56-58 retired and stealing jobs? Take off your jealous angry glasses and take a reality check, chum. My so-called pension doesn't begin till I'm 66, same as many others. As long as I, and folks like myself, can earn a living (doing what we've invested in for the privilege of doing), I shall obviously continue to do so.

Life is a competition, despite what they might have led you to think at school. When you're good enough, and your time comes, you'll get a job, if you have the right attitude, of course. Meanwhile, get yourself a job stacking shelves, or working on a building site, like many of us had to do before we got a flying job.

From the Lion Air Ops manual:

Second In Command (SIC) is only allowed to become a Pilot Flying (PF) after reaching a 300 flight hours on the aircraft type flown (on type)
SIC with more than 300 flight hours on type, may become the PF on takeoff, but to become the PF for landing, he/she restricted to approach using an instrument landing system (ILS).
Especially for Boeing 737-900 ER, with the degree of difficulties because the length of the aircraft, SIC may become a PF after reaching 500 flight hours on type.
An extreme caution must be exercised anytime flying with less experienced pilot. The PIC must be prepared to take over the flight control, especially during takeoff and landing when the SIC is the PF. PIC must keep soft touch on rudder pedal, control column and thrust levers.
When the PIC has less than 300 flight hours on type. The PIC is not allowed to entrust the control to the SIC, irrespective of the SIC total flight time on type.
At all special airports and or when following condition exist (s) PIC always the PF •
The prevailing visibility value in the latest weather report for the airport is at or below 1 kilometer. •
The runway visual range (if reported) for the runway to be use is at or below 1,500 meters •
The runway to be used has water, snow, slush or similar condition that may adversely affect airplane performance.
The braking action of the runway to be used is reported to be less then “good”.
The cross wind component for the runway to be used in excess of 15 knots •
Wind shear is reported in the vicinity of the airport. •
Any other condition in which the PIC determines is to be prudent to exercise the PIC prerogative. •
Approach and landing on Non Precision Approach (NPA) runway.

John Smith,

They are more than welcome to proceed with legal actions.
I will have a field day exposing their practices to the general public.

So I can be sure that they will NOT proceed.

Why are they criminal and dangerous?

Because they abuse young, inexperienced people, new in the industry to increase their profit, prefer these profit bringers over more experienced personnel that has to be paid ( can they proof that experience does not increase safety factor?!), mislead their passengers claiming they put Safety first where in reality, they put profit in front, I can go on and on.

Thing is, its becoming more and more blurred nowadays.

I'm in a position to get onto a deal almost identical to that of Ryan in one of the outfits mentioned by despegue/j74. Ie paying for TR, but a paid long-term contract afterwards.

At the same time Norwegian (not mentioned in the list) has recently advertised a position of non-tr FO "summer contract" where you pay for your TR to be offered a fixed term contract of... 3 months.

And thing is, I'll probably take the offer I got. I've spoken to quite a lot of pilots during the last 4 years - working the ramp and flying on the jumpseat everytime I had the possibility. While 4 years ago opinions were varied and some said Ryan is a black sheep of the industry, in the last year every single pilot I met told me that I have to be prepared to pay for my TR. Most of them I could quote on 'if you get a shot at Ryan, by all means go for it'...

Do you actually think the general public care?

Paying for training is different to paying to WORK.
Ryanair pays you a salary when flying their passengers.
Air Baltic and others ask you to PAY for flying their passengers.

despegue,

The reason behind my post was precisely that one (that I know of) of the carriers you mention as 'air baltic and others' is paying a salary, while some better-established companies who aren't are lacking from the list.

There's the enormous question of PR involved, plus that within companies things can vary quite a lot between one contract and another.

ATLAS JET, CORRENDON. SUNEXPRESS AND FREEBIRD all pay salaries after type rating..duff info coming out here....again.. and another load of PTF dribble.. nowadays expect to pay for a type rating as part of the "education" look at it as a " requirement for employment" My daughter is at medical school and this is costing at least three times the cost of a type rating and afterwards a low salary even while working as a qualified doctor..There is, of course, a fundamental difference, medical students will nearly all get jobs, whereas baby pilots stand a 20% chance.. that's the real issue..

I wonder how pilots can manage such a financial burden. It is horrific.


- What is the average time spent by P2T in those airlines?
- Would it solve the issue if you involved union reps or pilot committees and have the P2F blocked from flying elsewhere?
- What is different between a P2F training / other respectful airlines? (Safety)

I have a feeling that the inboxes of the HR departments of the various airlines listed in this thread must be full of emails from wet CPL holders inquiring about their training programs.

John Smith

"I don't buy the morality angle either. Companies exist to make profit for their shareholders. They are not there for the benefit of their employees."

Once again I find myself disagreeing with you.

These days it seems as though companies do exist to make profit for the shareholders only, however the relationship between employer and employee should be a symbiotic one where both parties benefit. They need us as much as we need them and there should be mutual respect.

The quest for greed on the part of the shareholders has brought us to a point that is almost untenable and one that will result in disaster for everyone (A la French Revolution) in time.

Whilst John_Smith has clearly replaced WBF as the chief of polarised positions he does make valid points as well. Just sometimes expressed in a way that irritates.

Shareholder value is king. It is across the capitalist world. Airlines are just late to this game. A family member has worked in the City for 40 years and tells of horrific abuses of staff and customers in the name of profit. Just look at RBS. Once the bastion of commercial prudence, greed and the drive for profit at all costs has driven it time and time again to cross the line into gross abuse of trust and incompetence. They are being fined billions for these sins.

Companies that have understood the symbiotic relationship between a quality, motivated and happy work force generate sustainable growth and manage costs in a humane and controlled manner. Those that don't eventually fall to their knees. Airlines are not and will not be exempt.

:ugh:

I can assure you that Sunexpress took lot of people from Stella Aviation and made them to pay 30k for Line training.
And besides that few more people connected to fly gosh and again others by Mr. K.Z. Leeds Base... then they receive a fixed salary of 3k x month and this is another story, and different conditions of others companies, but still P2F!

Then still some agencies like AviationCV, still recruiting for various Companies people for TR+LT, same BAA TRTo and Air baltic TRTO.

Agree with you, but the sinergy between them has broken times ago!

Again, you're correct...lot of people they will use this thread like they find a piece of Gold...as they still too lazy to navigate in internet and find some informations by their own.