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It seems as if my post has ruffled a feather or two, which was not the intention, but the personal accounts of 2 Whites 2 Reds and bex88 have to some degree, illustrated the point I was trying to make. There is a fine line between collating data following fatigue reporting and being unnecessarily invasive and/or unpleasant in how this is achieved. There has been an FRMS at my outfit for around a decade (maybe longer) and I have personally seen the excellent side of fatigue reporting but I have also heard of some rather unfavourable accounts from colleagues. Given that FRMS seems to be in its early days at BA based on what others have posted, I simply wished to highlight a side to FRMS reporting, that 2 Whites 2 Reds and bex88 have highlighted to some extent.
Wireless “You can fly to these limits, but only, and only if you have an FRMS to catch fatigue”. A feedback loop system. It’s not meant to be a section of railway track that disappears into the buffers with fatigue reports being filed away ne’er to be seen again. Hence fatigue reporting goes to MOR (although when filed through airlines at least BA seem to override the MOR status sometimes) You raise the interesting point about how the regulator is part of the reporting loop for fatigue reporting and this raises an interesting predicament, since an operator is obliged to preach that they wholeheartedly support an open a fair fatigue reporting system, yet any operator will wish to keep the number of fatigue reports to as few as possible, so that it does not warrant extra attention from the regulator. MikeAlpha320 Whether a trip is legal or not is irrelevant. Fatigue is personal! Some people find things more/less fatiguing than others. That is what makes this process one that can be unfairly biased in favour of the operator and not the reporter. It is far more convenient for the operator to try pin the cause of the fatigue on the individual and not on the operator's processes. There is no intent to scaremonger on my part and no one should be scared to report fatigued in any company. I myself will report fatigued, as I have done so in the past but I have seen some colleagues who would rather just call sick rather than call sick due to fatigue and subsequently document their fatigue, as it will remove any potential spotlight being shone on their life outside of the flight deck. The post-fatigue reporting follow up process by the operator, must be relevant but it is imperative that the reporter stands up, should they feel what they are being asked to account for is not relevant. Your colleague has mentioned how their commute of just under 90 minutes had to be accounted for in detail but is all this detail actually relevant given that the long-standing 90 minute time recommendation for traveling to home base, was complied with? I have seen a few colleagues with a higher than average number of sick days being referred for medical tests so that their reported fatigue can be 'investigated' and it is easy for any operator to defend such a practice as not being punitive, as it can be linked to due diligence being performed within the context of their FRMS. On the other hand, one could argue that such an approach is perhaps excessive and could act as a deterrent to others but it's highly subjective depending on if you view this from the perspective of the reporter or the operator. None of us would like our sleeping, eating, exercise and travel history probed into and especially so when one will probably be unsure what will constitute an answer that will draw extra unwanted attention towards our personal life. 4468 A VNC in the BACC? How many friends did you say you have in BA? Funnily enough, none of them seem to have expressed their concern about any of the issues that have been discussed here recently. Either it's another case of 'I'm alright Jack' as has been alluded to here or perhaps they are just apathetic. |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10332768)
I spoke positively about fatigue reporting. I was wrong I received a unpleasant phone call recently with a view to discredit my report. |
Originally Posted by VOR.DME
(Post 10333125)
Does anyone know what the procedure is should you be unsuccessful this time round? I have heard a rumour (so this would be the perfect place to discuss...!) that whatever stage you were unsuccessful at, you can reapply in six months and recommence the process from there...eg unsuccessful at stage 3, wait six months, back for another sim ride. |
It used to be 6 months if you were unsuccessful at the application stage and 12 months if you were unsuccessful at any of the assessment stages.
I know people have been called back sooner in recent times but can't confirm what the official policy is these days. I think it stated it on the assessment invitation email when I went through but that was 4 years ago and there's been a changing of the guard since then. Best of luck with it. |
MikeAlpha320. Not in BALPA (rightly or wrongly) so no BALPA not copied Buter. As above. Honestly I don’t have the confidence to speak openly in fear of reprisals. |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10333174)
MikeAlpha320. Not in BALPA (rightly or wrongly) so no BALPA not copied Buter. As above. Honestly I don’t have the confidence to speak openly in fear of reprisals. |
Originally Posted by hoody_mcboob
(Post 10333296)
Then you might as well just go back to pissing into the wind... I do really hope it gets improved upon. We need a proper system in place. One that is not subject to certain managers (flying one trip a month) and their subjective opinions. Collect data. Use it to identify fatiguing patterns. I don't need a response suggesting that I should be bidding for more days off- If I could get more days off I would certainly already be doing it. Lets see what next year and JSS rosters at LHR- lots of DEPs (ezy with FRMS experience) and what seems to be a more defiant CC will bring. |
Fatigue shouldn't be industrial, but the EZY experience is that in the absence of effective regulation, where the CAA and EASA basically look at one another and shrug and then get on with something else, then the only way to make any progress is to make it industrial.
You have the moral high ground and the safety argument, which is good. However it's a lot harder to conduct a sustained campaign over it - it's not just pushing out a pay offer and letting the pilots say yay or nay. BA is made even more complicated by the SH vs LH and the seniority. Good luck! |
The whole thing now sounds really unattractive. Not for the first time I have felt relieved that I didn't pass the selection!
|
I was going to say, the t&c already were far from attractive already, but after reading of how fatigue is handled in BA compared to my current employer... well, I see no point in applying at all. |
Not only do you have the alleged intimidation of people filing fatigue reports you have the Kafka-esque invasion of privacy and spying on employees making their way to work in their own free time. Ask yourself carefully, is this the kind of employer I want? There are still benefits to being here but - seeing as they’re pretty much all under attack from management who are obsessed with more and more profit and greed - do you want to take the huge gamble that they’ll still be available when you work here? |
Jan JSS seems to be run by EK rostering staff! Junior A380 pilots assigned for example 90 and 98 hrs. |
Originally Posted by cessnapete
(Post 10333827)
Jan JSS seems to be run by EK rostering staff! Junior A380 pilots assigned for example 90 and 98 hrs. Be interested to see whether those on full time contracts are going to get any time at home. |
Aiminghigh, you will never know unless you join. I read this thread every now and again and notice the same old names complaining about the same old things, does BA have issues, yes of course it does, but do I recognise the company that portrayed on here, no. nowhere is perfect (even Virgin guys and girls are talking strike action). What percentage of BA pilots leave for pastures new, probably more than a few years back but is that as much a sign of the way society is rather than the way the company is going? There are 4300 pilots at BA only a dozen or so post on here complaining, that’s not saying the issues they are raising aren’t real and aren’t a concern but possibly they are being overly pessimistic. I truly believe that you could give pilots a new car to drive to a lap dancing bar for free dances and free beer and we would moan and want a BMW not a merc, lager not bitter and a blonde not a brunette. Try and get a balanced view of the company rather than believe everything you read on here. Before the usual suspects have a pop, I acknowledge the issues you raise and acknowledge the plethora of problems at BA it is far far from perfect but then is anywhere, a little positivity goes a long way in relieving stress. VinRouge. With regards JSS I got my bid group 1, 15 days at work, 16 off with the trips I wanted (320). Don’t know if I’m lucky or not but happy with Jan, we will see what the rest of the year brings..... |
Originally Posted by cessnapete
(Post 10333827)
Jan JSS seems to be run by EK rostering staff! Junior A380 pilots assigned for example 90 and 98 hrs. |
Thank you for everyones continued contribution to this thread. Its proving invaluable to those of us either thinking of applying or who are in the recruitment process.
Would people now consider commuting from a BA served regional UK city as a junior LH pilot as pretty much impossible now with the apparent crack down on travel before duty and the recent roster system changes? |
Originally Posted by dirk85
(Post 10333784)
I was going to say, the t&c already were far from attractive already, but after reading of how fatigue is handled in BA compared to my current employer... well, I see no point in applying at all. Just for me to be balanced. I didn’t personally have a very positive experience with the “F” word. But as I mentioned that really could be just my experience with the person I spoke to. People being people and all. As I mentioned there’s some folk on here who’ve equally had good experiences with it. I don’t think anyone is making the leap to say the system is definitely handled “badly”. That would be a bit of a sweeping statement and very hard to say unless Balpa took a straw poll. They probably have an opinion as they take an interest in that sort of thing. I have to be adult about it - I mentioned Easyjet. I bet there’s the odd person at Ej who didn’t have a good experience too. As I mentioned there’s many very good sides to BA. It still can be a fasntastic place to work. Like anything that’s in flux the negatives can get a bit “polarising”. I do have to remind myself to keep perspective. A post above raised a good point about that. its natural as it stems from frustration that a good thing is being eroded. Does it happen elsewhere? Yep. But doesn’t mean naturally we should watch it sail by. But equally, keep perspective about applying. It’s far from a sweatshop and still a fasnastic employer. Just things are a changing. Up to you naturally to judge it you want to risk the change and how that fits with your circumstances or wishlist. |
Originally Posted by Icanseeclearly
(Post 10333875)
Aiminghigh, you will never know unless you join. I read this thread every now and again and notice the same old names complaining about the same old things, does BA have issues, yes of course it does, but do I recognise the company that portrayed on here, no. nowhere is perfect (even Virgin guys and girls are talking strike action). What percentage of BA pilots leave for pastures new, probably more than a few years back but is that as much a sign of the way society is rather than the way the company is going? There are 4300 pilots at BA only a dozen or so post on here complaining, that’s not saying the issues they are raising aren’t real and aren’t a concern but possibly they are being overly pessimistic. I truly believe that you could give pilots a new car to drive to a lap dancing bar for free dances and free beer and we would moan and want a BMW not a merc, lager not bitter and a blonde not a brunette. Try and get a balanced view of the company rather than believe everything you read on here. Before the usual suspects have a pop, I acknowledge the issues you raise and acknowledge the plethora of problems at BA it is far far from perfect but then is anywhere, a little positivity goes a long way in relieving stress. VinRouge. With regards JSS I got my bid group 1, 15 days at work, 16 off with the trips I wanted (320). Don’t know if I’m lucky or not but happy with Jan, we will see what the rest of the year brings..... Some good points raised there. And your post gave me something to think on. You’re right it’s easy to go down the rabbit hole. I try and sit in the middle, but guilty of failing. I do try to keep balanced. It’s a yoyo as we all have limits. I do think sitting back in acceptance isn’t the way (not for one minute inferring you yourself were saying that), and am very interested in what the union are doing. But that’s because I witnessed a more further down the line version of what’s happening here at a previous and know it can bite in the bum if you sleepwalk into it. So I suppose that can make one a little more jumpy than perhaps one needs be. Who knows. At work I’m very positive myself. I think a lot of folk are. So it’s hard to gauge what folk really ruminate on about their working life in their personal time or what they really think. So you’re right. It’s important to keep perspective. Yes things need to be done. But it’s far from a bad choice to work at. It’s more spotting the trend to stop it becoming a bad place. If something was really bad and behind help (like a personal relationship to strike an analogy) then perhaps there’d be disinterest. It’s actually a good thing that people do care and are slightly animated. It points to that the place is actually, or was very good and they don’t want to see it go downhill I suppose. One way of looking at it I guess. |
Icanseeclearly: is that full time or 75%? I would assume you have some bank and seniority which helps. The reality is it was always harder at the bottom but it seems to be getting worse. I went all the way into the last stage of fall back and have nearly as much work with leave. At the bottom it is still blind lines but now loaded up |
Bex, Thats full time, a bit of seniority but by no means senior. Out of interest I compared the Jan rosters under JSS with the Jan rosters from this year, both are busy but I didn’t see a big difference, of course the folk may not have got their bid group 1 and would have been on blind lines in Jan so it’s hard to say how happy they are. i have acknowledged that BA has its issues and I most definitely have some problems with the way it is going and have some “red lines” that I am unwilling to accept but I am not going to allow it to dictate my outlook on life. in the military when we deployed we had 3 types of people: those who were very happy to be where they are and doing what they were doing (a small minority) those who accepted the situation. Did their best and tried to have a positive outlook on life but were willing to speak up when things were a little awry. And those who did nothing but moan (despite being volunteers) they made themselves miserable, made those around them miserable and had a difficult time of it. life is too short to allow BA to grind me down, I don’t take it home and think a little positivity in life goes a long way. |
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