To put things into perspective for your people who are looking into this job.

At my current European Loco airlines (not the one that shall not be named) I know of 2 young F/O's (25 ish) who have cashed out and are heading back to university. These are people just like you, who started flying out of passion. 6 to 7 years later they're all looking for a way out.

Unless you manage to land a job at one of the legacies you're looking in at the wrong industry for a career. Even If you manage to land a 737 job at your homebase, there's no future in it. Or are you going to do 35-40 years of loco short hauling?

3 years into low cost flying and I'm convinced that to have a 40 year+ career I will need to go part time at some point. Who knows what the state pension or retirement age will be by the time I get there!

I would agree with many of the comments on this forum. I strongly agree with 'Cliff Secord's' posts, and 'Greenlights' makes some very good points.

I was a keen not-so-young thing only a few years ago; all that mattered was getting that first airline job...and then everything would be OK.

I trained via the modular route, kept my training costs to around £65k and paid cash so I'm debt free. I finished training in 2007 and after 9 months of searching I joined an airline which rated me on a Jet and paid me well (for the first couple of years). I'm simply telling you this because I think I've been about as fortunate as it is possible to be in this game. I am also now paid about 25% less than I was in 2008, but...I still have a job.

I have been trying to get out of this business for 3 years now and with a bit of luck I will make the jump later in the year. Flying can be fun - though it can also be boring - and I know I'll miss it. But I'm going to make the jump because it has cost me my life for the last 6 years and it's not worth that high a price.

You won't fit into with the rest of the world because your work pattern won't be a 7 day cycle. When you get home from a trip all you will do is sleep, wash and then you're back out the door again. You will have to request leave 6-12 months in advance, and it is likely you won't get it. As a result, you won't have many close friendships or relationships.

You will live out of a suitcase; you will become an expert in the art of frugal hotel living. Your diet will be poor, especially if you eat airline food. Your health will suffer, and you'll probably put on weight because you will frequently be too tired to exercise, but you won't want to sleep during the day because you have to get up early the next morning. This will also mean that you watch a lot of useless TV rather than getting on with the stuff that you need to do.

Every 6 months you will run the gauntlet of the sim check, and every 12 the line check. This can be quite stressful when the airline is using them as a means to reduce headcount.

I had a career previous to this one and so for me at least, I'm going to enjoy my life eating well, sleeping enough, spending time with my wife and friends, and working in an industry which isn't so badly managed.

Ironically enough, this decision will actually cost my airline because they will have to train a newbie who won't know how to operate the aircraft as well as I can, but they'll have to pay him the same because they haven't given me a pay rise.

Anyone who goes into this industry without gaining a degree life skills and another career as a back up first and who doesnt manage to minimise flight training costs to the levels oompa loompa did really are setting themselves up for a very tough time.

Dont allow yourself to get sucked into the big fto marketing dream and pay top dollar and go directly to the RH seat of a jet at ryr or ezy. I can assure you that you will be a very long way from having made it at that point. No matter what the schools tell you.

I went part time recently. Still use my degree. Money is better and shifts are much better in my other job than the locos (I too was lucky to avoid) -unfortunately friends followed the ctc/ezy and the oaa/ryr path and after an initial period of delight just 2-4 years down the line are actively trying to get out. At 2 years you definitely wont have got anywhere near paying your debt off, also unlikely at 4 years. Dont worry about the fto or the loco this situation suits them perfectly. As they appear to have a never ending supply of cadets with access to obscene sums of money.

The job isnt what it was certain quarters mainly the locos are trying to lower both pilots ts & cs and the profession standing - even down to pilots wearing anoraks and plastic coats (do a search on here). This is forcing virtually all operators to follow suit in the race to the bottom.

There is some excellent advice on here, mine is simply an opinion.
Best of luck

Interesting thread.

I just don't see sustainable in the long term. To fly this amount of hours under these conditions. And, having been in a low cost (1000hrs a year) and in EK (not sure you consider it a legacy or another low cost) I can assure you that EK is far more tiring than my previous job.

I think I could cope with 1000 hrs a year of day flying. Not with 900 missing 1/3 of the night's sleep per month.

I'm under 30 and considering a career change too. And is not about money anymore, is that the way this industry is going made me hate what I used to love most: flying.

I think there are multiple signs across the Western world that the party is coming to an end for employers. The gluttonous uptake of pilots that occurred during the LoCo mega growth years is turning into the belly ache of youngish disillusioned and much abused workforce who realise that they have been conned. The upside is that employers will be forced to improve t&c's in line with the law of supply and demand.

oompa lumpa good post, at least you had an available exit.

RT Jones, your state pension age will almost certainly be 70, assuming you are 25-30 now, according to government websites.

BALPA members should have received a Pension Newsletter yesterday (email) highlighting the appalling DC pension plans the majority of UK airlines are now offering, which, on minimum contributions, will pay out about 10% of your final salary as a pension after 30 years service.

So career scenario
Training Costs, rubbish salary, divorce due to worklife, penury in retirement, death. Naaaa, I'm only kidding you, it won't be that bad!

Interesting thread, sure there's good jobs out there somewhere but I didn't realise it's quite this bad in fixed-wing. Out of interest what rosters are you guys working, do you work equal time?

One thing I noticed from my buddies who joined the airlines is the fairly rapid withering up of the joyful Facebook updates about how good the job is, they sound fairly knackered and depressed to me after the honeymoon period has worn off.

I'm on a 5:2:6:3, going onto a 6:2:6:3 for the summer. Fatigue might be an issue....

:eek:

Out of interest, what about leave on top and how many standbys do you get? I work 14/14 offshore which works for my family, I'm not sure if I could cope with family life on a permanent 6/2/6/3. Even friends who've gone long haul have told me it is a nice lifestyle, but permanently tiring.

My work is 6:1 continuously, occasionally 13:1. If I want more days off I have to book (unpaid) leave. That's life, these days.

That you guys are accepting these kind of rosters, i dont get it. Think outside the box. There are still other jobs out there. 13 days on 1 off!!!:eek: I hope you dont have a family at home.

Woody - nope, no family, fortunately.
This isn't an airline imposed roster. This is necessity of being self employed and working for multiple customers. To keep them happy you have to work non-stop.

My point is that the airline rosters are bad, but life elsewhere isn't exactly a bed of roses either.

This is just my personal opinion, so feel free to correct me where im wrong.
Traditionally the entry level jobs in aviation where badly paid so even though training was expensive after a reasonable amount of time prospective pilots would jump to a legacy carrier where they could enjoy an upper middle class standard of living. In the old days a young student or a mature career changer could afford training without significant debt and later could hope for a reasonable pay and a cream of the crop job. The key over here was patience and determination. Now days cheap credit and the "I want it now" mentality lead many people to integrated schools with massive amount of debt hoping to achieve the job and the salary of the past. While low cost operators were hiring it was OK but now supply is well over demand. For example i read somewhere that in the US there are about 30.000 professional pilots flying for the legacies. So say that every year there is a need for 3.000 pilots,considering the amount of graduates from aviation colleges like ERAU and the military guys retiring, someone has to be extremely lucky to fly with the big players. I believe that the same, or worst, applies to Europe taking into account the lack of general aviation.Furthermore in Europe established carriers take their own cadets. In order for the T and Cs to be better there has to be a massive expansion or a much more limited supply. With the amount of people graduating from schools all over i doubt that there will be a limited supply in Europe anytime soon.
My personal view on this one is simple,
if the required hours for the CPL were for example 400 then it would be much more difficult for someone to earn his wings in an integrated school in a year or so.For someone in order to be a pilot would be a long time goal and determination would be needed. Furthermore earning all that hours would mean that more mature candidates would enter the profession. Generally speaking a mature person has more responsibilities in life and demands better T and Cs. Thats my thoughts on the matter.

When I was growing up I would have done pretty much anything to be a pilot. In the end I was forced to give up on the idea as my eyesight was not good enough to pass the medicals. Best thing that ever happened to me.

I know a number of pilots of varying ages / seniority and the general consensus is that the industry sucks these days. And I don't see it getting better anytime soon. Airlines constantly cutting to the bone to make profit and expecting pilots to pay for their own training, putting them on contracts that offer little job security etc etc. And to top it all off, I am not convinced the flying is very appealing with terrible work/life balance and 98% of the task basically systems monitoring. There are a few lucky ones out there that love the job and have very good employers/ employment terms but they are few and far between IMHO.

As for me I am lucky enough to work in an entirely different industry earning way more than the highest paid Captains out there and I get to travel around the world a lot (for both business and vacations). So my advice....if it is getting to see the world that motivates you then there are a stack of careers to consider out there that offer better pay, better security, better work/life balance and more rewarding career...and if you still have a passion for flying, get a PPL and do some real flying at the weekend.

Good luck!!!!

I think personally that we sometimes forget the day in day out drudge of a 9-5 job in the real world. We also forget the state of the economy and the difficulty there is in the real world to get a decent job against the cut throat workforce and corporate greed that also goes on there. Dont kid yourself that the real world is a whole lot better, its not.

I have been very fortunate in my career so my view of aviation is somewhat rosy, but equally I realise its not the same as it was. I decided to take the leap of faith and naively left a 9-5 to learn to fly in my early 30s. I got a job in the LOCOs in the early days of their growth, pre 9-11. It was before they realised their present business model and recruitment strategy. I moved on a few years later and once again was lucky to get into what I believe is a good career job and now in my late 40s I fly LHS long haul with a good salary, pension and lifestyle. Yes I fly long hours and nights but that I knew before I launched into this career. I have no illusions about the real world though and how bloody hard my non pilot friends work and for a fraction of what I do. Yes they have weekends and Christmas off. The time I have off is generally quality time, not just crashed at home after a 2 hour daily commute bundled on a train or trudging up the motorway.

Would I do it now? Probably not because it has become a different beast. Am I happy with my choice now I look back? Yes I am. Horses for courses……

Where's the pride?
 

Every industry is doing it tough. People are getting laid off left, right and centre. That's how it is. We laid off 100 employees last year (probably 70% of our workers). I'm in the construction industry currently transitioning to a career in aviation.
I am 28, and completing my CPL.
My current job is good, I earn great money, but it doesn't fulfil me. I don't have any pride in my job. Its just a job. A boring, :mad: job that pays well.
I've always wanted to fly. Every time I put on that uniform and my wings, I feel so proud; full of pride.
I'd gladly take a pay cut to be in the air every day.

Surely every professional pilot out there, flying big/small jets was aware of the lifestyle!? Its no secret. You don't fly aircraft for the lifestyle or money, you fly aircraft because you want to fly aircraft!

It seems tough, but if you truly, whole heartedly know and feel that you belong in the air, then that's where you need to be.
Nearly every pilot started out in the same frame of mind, with the same determination and heart. To fly because its what we're passionate about. Like so many pilots have said who are contemplating a change "hmmm, but I'll miss it if I leave". How many people can say that in the workforce? I won't miss construction, that's for damn sure, or the MONEY.

But if you have no pride in your job, and its not fulfilling, then leave. Like my first boss said when I was an apprentice at 17, "If you have pride in your job, and pride in your work, you'll always have a job, and you'll always have work".

Maybe I'm just being naive, but I work hard, and have kept my job when times got tough because somehow the people above me knew I was an asset to the company because I did my job well, and took I pride in my work.

By the way, I know life can be demanding, and hard.. long hours, poor sleep patterns, diet.. but its not ALL bad, ALL the time. Surely there's moments of appreciation for what you have.

The key is that you know what you're getting involved in, and it isn't the same job as pre-2000.

Talk of T&Cs increasing is even possible from where we are today, but it's not going to be the upper middle class job it once was.

If we're honest, it does not require the ability of yesteryear and hence you don't need to pay top dollar for an exceptional individual as you don't need them for today's shift.

In fact, a top individual is going to be complete pain in the @rse to manage with lower T&Cs and a boring job.

Sooo ... You're giving it up for a ... boring job .. that pays terribly (or more accurately, gives a terrible return on time and money invested).

You wonder if you're being naïve - Yes, you're being naïve! I am an aviation nut, but that pride and enjoyment lasts five minutes, in what is a very repetitive job, working with often quite egotistical or odd people; Frankly I have found construction workers much more rounded and grounded personalities. You say you appreciated being appreciated by the people above you - Oh boy, you are switching into the wrong career! - Nobody will care how well you get the plane from A to B, provided you just do it, and at the absolute minimum renumeration; Even if you are the next Bob Hoover, you will still get promoted at exactly the same speed as a clueless contemporary who scrapes through every check and keeps their heads down.

After a 12hr 4 sector day when I get off the plane the first feeling I feel is not fulfilment!
If you want to fly an aircraft for the pure delight of flying then do it as a hobby, when you do a hobby as a career, it soon becomes just another job. Lifestyle, is not what it was 20 years ago and I don't think ever will be!
For me, the salary commanded is not for the complexity or day to day flying, but for when !!!! hits the fan, or even more likely, stopping them getting that far. The responsibility of a captain in my eyes is pretty big, the buck stops with them.
As has been said, most days by the end of it I barely remember where I've been or what has happened. I'd like to keep it that way. At the end of the day, its a job, that provides me an income and time off so I can do what I want. For me, it does that.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the views, the sunsets and 99% of the people I work with are lovely and excellent fun. I feel I had quite a lucky break, straight into easy jet after flight school. An unsecured loan which I am now able to pay back and have a reasonable lifestyle. Ok yes I am 4 years in so it didn't all appear straight away.

I have not come across any colleagues who do not take pride in the job they personally do.

If you have "pride in your job and pride in your work" that will almost certainly not correlate to always having work in aviation, here anyway. It could be stated that you are not really viewed as an asset by an airline if the way you are treated is testimony. You're an unfortunate requirement; the same as insurance policies, GNSS approvals and noise certificates. Thats the way it is - business. We are all used to that and nobody moans about the lack of recognition.

Weary of the whole damn thing my sights are lowered, a decent full time contract that allows my family to stay in their home country, the odd job opening that recognises some good old fashioned experience rather than peddling a falsely titled full cost but flexible pay type rating 'cadet scheme' aimed at young starlets and some half decent time off will do. I can't be fussed inciting much hope for anything else.

Playing the Devil's advocate; If you want to always have work, It's better if you don't overly value what you have to offer and as you say gladly take pay cuts to fly. They know it and use it, we have done it for them collectively. The crystal meth like habit the UK seems to have developed with cheap trainee schemes/PPY/ flex contracts sheds light to the claim. As a brand new Pilot walking into that first interview room at CTC/ John Doe airline, the stench of love blindness with the idea and Kamikaze like devotedness permeates for all to smell like a cheap cologne.

Best of luck with your training by the way. It's good you have industry experience to fall back on and it's a sensible way round to do it.

I understand the difficulties involved in getting a good paying job vs lifestyle. But what I don't understand is all these complainers of how the job sucks, money is bad, odd cockpit personalities, all of you have many many posts on pprune. Just give it up already, log off pprune, and get on with your life.

btw, I landed a great job last year, very happy. But it took me 13 years of flying tprops, jets for 2nd rate airlines. And you know what, even flying for 2nd rate airlines I made more money and had more time off than almost all of my friends/relatives doing something else.

Have fun guys, otherwise I don't wish to see you on my flight deck.

15k + hours, done the turboprops, done the jets, done the passengers, done the cargo, done the corporate , done the instructing&checking , done the 3 aircraft airline , done the 200+ aircraft airline, done the permanent jobs, done the contracting jobs, been based many places......is it really that bad?
Well it definitely got worse and worse over time and I would not recommend this career to a youngster.
Having said that there are worst jobs out there but this one is quickly climbing the rankings of the least attractive careers.

There are 2 aspects here. There are those who say they enjoy their job, those who loath it and those who say it's just a job and there are much worse out there. All true and it is affected by so many factors as as been said.
Then there are those who say they do it because they love/loved flying.
These are the 2 aspects: it started out as a flying dream and became just a job as it has very little to do with the rock & roll of real flying dreamt up as a kid. And there are those who entered it as an OK type of job with a bit of glamour. Whichever it is it will turn out to be a 'lifestyle' and that will be impossible to predict unless you know from the start who you are going to work for before you pay out loads of dosh for a training course.
You can go to assessment agencies to be tested to see if you are suitable to be a pilot and coordinated enough to handle an a/c etc. etc. You can jump through all the psychological hoops and be deemed acceptable. But will you like it as a life style. All these tests will not give you an answer, nor will they alert you to the trap you are about to fall into.
Caveat emptor.

Thanks for shedding some light, I am definitely starry eyed, hence being Mr. Naive. I look at airline pilots with envy and admiration, its a little hard to accept that so many of you HATE your jobs and want out...

Everyone seems to fall back onto this 'negative'.
The FO's here (Australia) in the QF Dash 8's are on a base wage of about $80K. That doesn't seem terrible for a foot through the door, with a lot of room for improvement.

And as for the "return on time and money invested", I really fail to see how it varies from a dentist, a lawyer or a doctor?
They invest more time (I think its about 5 years) in further education, and I'm sure they would have a similar, if not greater debt than $80K-$100K. Then, they have to land their first job, and they too have to claw their way up the ladder also.

But, I suppose it could be worse. Like operating and cutting people open, or pulling out stinky, rotten teeth. The major up side is helping people and saving lives. But isn't that was pilots are obligated to do also?
I'd much rather sit on the flight deck, staring out the window feeling 'bored' any day.

Being a pilot is a privilege in my eyes and always will be, not only from an intelligence perspective, but from that of health as well.

It is a job that took major hits in recent years and it is far from what it used to be.
Signs of recovery? None.
I better get ready to leave the studio flat of the city where I am based but where I don't live to prepare for a long night flight up into the northern weather hoping my payload isn't too big in order to have room for some spare fuel in case of snow and not being forced to re-file in flight and land elsewhere because that would spoil my commuting plans the day after and I was hoping to be able to spend 2 full days with my kids before leaving again for a duty of 6.

Add 'pilot' to list of jobs that aren't so great now - USATODAY.com

This thread kind of proves the following
30 Years + Final Salary Pension = Smug, lucky Pilot
20 years + in Flag Carrier on Legacy T&Cs = Happy
15 Years + Major Western Carrier Big Jets = Happy/Satisfied
10 Years + LOCO = Looking to move on due Lifestyle
5 Years + LOCO = How can I move on?
3 Years + LOCO = Have I made a mistake?
1 Year + Any Jet = I've made it!
0 Years = I'll take any job.

ME = How can I get home.
FE = Will they send me home?
Bizjet = Whats a roster?
TP = Will I get out before I lose my hearing?

Very much tongue in cheek!

That has to be the most astute and succinct post on this site. You might say it's tongue in cheek but it sums up pretty much every member in these forums, self included.

Bravo.:D:D

It's missing one important factor though. If at any point between 10-30 years your employer goes bust, then you can expect to join the bottom of the queue all over again quite possibly starting on a salary you last saw when you had hair on your head. Can't think of any other industry where that happens but there you go.

Beautifully summarised here:

The Ugly - The Truth About the Profession


Handcuffed/Starting Over
One of the ugliest things about the airline pilot profession is the fact that we usually are handcuffed to our ultimate employer for our entire career, and if our employer goes out of business, we're forced to start over as if you're a brand new pilot fresh out of flight school. Let me explain...let's look at an accountant and a pilot, both working at Acme Airlines.

Let's say you wish to ultimately become employed by Acme Airlines, which is a large, currently profitable major airline with good career prospects. You spend 15 years of your life earning your Bachelor's Degree and accumulating thousands of hours of flight experience, and you finally make it to Acme Airlines. Fast forward 10 years down the road after you were hired by Acme, and Acme is not doing so well. It's chronically losing money, it's now poorly managed, and it is in danger of bankruptcy. Employees are facing yet another round of pay cuts in order to help support this struggling company.

Now if you were in any other profession (assuming normal economic conditions), when you became unhappy with Acme, you could just leave and find a healthy company to work for. And that's exactly what the accountant does at Acme Airlines. He sees that his employer is struggling and that another round of pay cuts are on the horizon. So what does he do? He looks around for another accountant job and leaves. When he makes this move, it's very likely that this accountant will be able to find a job at another company earning a salary resembling his old salary at Acme, or perhaps maybe even find a job that pays more because he was a great employee, worked hard as an accountant, and his accumulated experience at Acme is appreciated and rewarded by his new employer.

But what about the Acme Airlines pilot? Certainly he could do the same as the accountant and jump ship to a healthier company with better prospects? Nope. As airline pilots, when you leave your current employer for a new one, your new airline employer will start you at the bottom of the seniority list. You're handcuffed to your current employer because leaving would cause you to have to start over at entry level wages and seniority at another airline, leaving you with really no choice but to stay and ride it out.

Let's say you stay and "ride it out" but unfortunately Acme Airline liquidates and ceases to exist. If you were a 747 Captain at Acme Airlines when Acme liquidated, you'd now be competing for the same entry level positions at other major airlines as you were 10 years ago when you were just starting out in the profession, working your way up. And what may be worse, if the economy is poor, and only regional airlines are hiring, you'll be competing against people fresh out of flight school for that $20,000 year regional airline job! That's quite a long financial fall for a 747 Captain. Unfortunately, this story has been played out time and time again. In fact, this story is playing out right now at some airlines. It can be financially devastating, and I personally know pilots who have lost their homes, their marriages, and sometimes their life because of this.

Not a bad precis at all, but in addition Superpilot's comment I think it's worth emphasising to some of the newbies/wanabees that IMHO the scale is a snapshot of where we are now in March 2014.....

What the zero bods need to ask themselves is what are the chances that in 2044 the 30 years pilot will be a "..... Final Salary Pension = Smug, lucky Pilot" ?...Actually scratch the Final Salary bit, we already know the answer to that one :(

For interest perhaps one should consider the inject point for a time served, 20 year, ex-fast and pointy, frozen atpl, trying to enter the food chain? :E

EXMIL + fATPL = wishing it was 2004
FUTURERETIREDPILOT + DC Pension = there's a job in B&Q (Home Depot)
PPL + PA28 = Glad I became something in the City.

:ooh:

Ha ha ! Nice one !

:ok:

perhaps in the future

+5 Years Still paying off loan
+10 Years Paying for the fuel
+15 Years Paying for the fuel and renting the aircraft

(hopefully) tongue in cheek! :)

I almost never post on pprune but threads like this are important to people thinking about entering the industry so I'm going to throw my 2p worth in.

I fly a heavy jet around Europe working very hard in the summer and not so hard in the winter. I love my job and couldn't imagine doing anything else. However having said that if I had my time over again knowing what I know now I wouldn't enter the industry. This is a feeling echoed by many of my colleagues.

The reasons I would not enter the industry again are as follows:

As a new trainee entering the industry will realistically have to pay around £100000. This is a life changing amount of money. If you are not lucky enough to have that kind of money lying around either you or your family will have to get a loan, re- mortgage your home or work and save for a very long time to save £100000 of disposable income.

If you need a loan there is only 1 company in the UK that will fund flight training. They have very strict criteria that have to be met in order to be offered the loan. The criteria are more difficult to satisfy than getting a mortgage for buying a house and is for a maximum term of 10 years which is substantially shorter than most mortgages. The repayments for this loan in the most optimistic scenario with interest remaining at their historically low level is about £900 a month. This has to be paid every month or the home which you have secured it on will be repossessed. This is a real scenario and has happened to people. £900 is a lot of money to find each month on most entry level salaries in the aviation industry. If you are not lucky enough to get a job straight out of training add on to this the cost of keeping your licence current in order to remain attractive to potential employers.

The percentage chance for a newly qualified frozen ATPL getting a job that pays you to fly for an airline on a proper employment contract is very very slim. Particularly in the UK where highly experienced many thousand hour jet captains are struggling to find gainful employment. It's a huge gamble to take with such a large amount of money that if it doesn't pay off will hamper the rest of your life. If your credit rating shows such a large debt you will struggle to achieve any more debt so things like mortgages, credit cards and even mobile phone contracts become more challenging and all you have to show for your troubles is a cheap blue plastic wallet.

For those who will immediately say that's only the UK and European markets this is true but in order to apply to other parts of the world eg Middle East / Far East a very quick check of the current requirements for these jobs shows a requirement for at least 3000 of hours experience on jet aircraft and most above the weight categories above those the pay to fly schemes will satisfy. If you can afford to buy into these schemes and remain on them long enough to build the hours required to move on then you are lucky but you will be among the very lucky few.

To everyone who will say follow your dream and paint the romantic picture of bursting through the clouds a sun rise and tell you there's nothing like it, it's true. However the excitement and sparkle of this soon goes when your on day six of your run of early starts with min rest in between and all you want to do is finish so you can get your 2 days off to recover get your life organised maybe see you friends and family before you start again with the only difference being that your now on lates and will get home at 4 am instead of getting up at 4am.

Ultimately the excitement of flying a big aircraft doesn't really exist for very long it becomes just a job very quickly, a fun job where you mostly work with nice people, but really it's just a way to earn money to fund your lifestyle. It is very regimented and repetitive job you see crew room, flight deck, runway, sky, runway, 10min outside doing the walk round, say hello to cabin crew then flight deck, runway, sky, runway, crew room and repeat. If you make a mistake there are questions to be answered ranging from file an ASR and forget about it to sorry you've lost your job depending on severity of the mistake.

There is also the issue of it can be a very unstable industry with redundancy a real possibility. I thankfully have never experienced this so cannot talk about it intelligently but I have worked with many people who have lived through this scenario and it is a tough one to survive financially.

This has been a very long post so thank you for reading it is only my view so I'm sure there will be many who do not agree.

My final comment would be that to succeed in this industry has very little to do with ability, willingness to work, determination or cash it is mostly luck in qualifying at the right time and being in the right place when a job becomes up.

Wanabee1000

Your post was worth reading to the end.

I would hazard a guess that there has never been as much recruitment on Jet aircraft in the UK as there has been in recent times. Id also guess the recruitment has never been extensively ringfenced to one or two FTOs as it has before.

It is ok for the few who have manouvered themselves into position to gain from this scenario such as the shareholders of the ftos etc (you do on occasion hear all sorts of rumours) but it isnt difficult to see what it is doing to the overall industry

I understand wanabees are advised not to read too much on this website as it is allegedly full of negative stuff from envious people. That may be true to a certain extent however spin like this from the ftos does dilute the excellent advice and guidance from established, independent and well placed sources of information from within the industry.

My own attitude about the industry I work in isnt fuelled by individual concern it is fuelled by the fact this is having on the whole industry

I make no apologies for the fact that I personally, do not have much sympathy for anyone who gets sucked into one of the big schools whether they don't get into the industry at all, or end up marking time for a year or two, or even those who end up "winning" and getting there backside into the RHS of an airliner albiet in such a ridiculous financial situation with huge debts and not much in the way of paying them off. They surely are not the sole cause for the direction the industry is going however they certainly do play a part this cannot be disregarded

My advice is to read the informative posts on here, filter out the rubbish and hidden agenda, understand the industry, understand the lifestyle (especially at the LOCOs such as RYR and EZY) be very very cautious with the spin from the FTOs and any related sources of information.

Is it really that bad?
 

In a nutshell, unless you work for a large national carrier, yes.

Following the two excellently considered posts from Wanabee1000 and Three Lions plus the constructive input from macdo, I would like to offer the opinion of a time-served airline captain.
I wanted to be a pilot from the days when I used to carve solid balsa scale model aircraft as a 9 year old.
Later I hung around an aero club, doing all the stuff that nobody else wanted to do and was rewarded with some super flights with super people.
I then flew fighters in the military, instructed at one of the major (now) FTOs and then landed an airline job at a starting salary a good bit lower than the FTO's.
Btw, the FTO paid for my IR and Commercial Instructor Rating! The airline paid for my Type rating and base training !

Magic ! ……for a while !!

As many have said, the fun waned at a rapid rate, far outweighing the fulfilment I always got from doing the job properly, sometimes with aeroplanes carrying a large number of DDs. The hours were long and the sectors were shorthaul. A large number of taxi journeys, up to 3 hours, were regular occurrences …..and didn't count as a sector !
Family life began to suffer as, even in those days, I was getting fatigued because there was never any time to recover.

To cut a long story short, I endured this for a further 25 years. At the end, I was relieved to retire and go back to flying and instructing on little 'uns again.
The improvement was immediate. I was much better company; I was enjoying teaching motivated, rested students again; I was flying the way it should be.
There was little pressure, no ingratitude; no threat of being failed on your next Base Check because you had dared to question a completely unreasonable request to "help the Company out." I became valued again.
To do it again with the lifetime financial load, the higher hours caps and the continued thanklessness of the modern task ? No,…..no matter what the challenge.
Get a wellpaid job in the City and buy your own aeroplane ! Don't buy your future in the most thankless profession going. := Good Luck.

I always wonder if these "well paid jobs in the city" are devoid of stress and burnout, and are bastions of morality, and exist in sufficient numbers to satisfy the default position of dissuaded, disillusioned or failed commercial pilots? Come Five o' clock on a Friday evening its Bowler and umbrella off the hat stand, hop on the commuter train home and look forward to a weekend flattening daisies in your very own light aircraft.

Flying has provided me with a very good career and there is no doubt a lot of luck was involved, but it is still a reality that there are good jobs out there. I am very lucky in that I see a stream of people entering a profession who are also getting a good start to their careers. The mechanics of entry have evolved over the last two decades as indeed the industry itself has evolved.

For those that really want a career as a professional pilot in 2014, I doubt that telling them why they can't, won't, shouldn't, or mustn't, is going to make very much difference. You can spell out the realities, you can recount tales of horror, you can highlight each and every pitfall. Some will heed the advice and use it as a part of their journey, others will simply believe whatever they choose or simply have to believe in order to justify a limited range of options. You pay your money and you take your choice!

As posters above have said, it is a job and once the illusion of glamour has started to tarnish it is still a job. It is what pays the mortgage/rent and pays the car bills and the food, loans, credit cards, clothing, heat, light and entertainment. Monthly bills get very mundane, and remuneration is what (if you are lucky) keeps them mundane rather than a personal crisis.

The roads into the better remunerated jobs are either very expensive or very long. Often they can be very expensive and very long. There are no guarantees. The risks are enormous. Crossing the raging torrent to these better remunerated jobs is fraught with difficulty. There are plenty of "I have no agenda" folks, clinging on to these slippery rocks telling others not to pay the toll to cross the bridge.

Would I promote a career in commercial aviation to my own children? No, not beyond many other choices that may be available to them. However if they were determined to take this route, then I would provide a very detailed and specific roadmap to help them achieve their goal. That roadmap would be full of many of the same warnings that are highlighted in this and many other threads.

Have to agree with Bealzebub.

I get to meet a lot of pilots in their 20s joining my airline. The vast majority are mature and well motivated and came into the business eyes wide open, well aware of the negatives. They all chose a route which was expensive but which they felt gave them the best chance of getting a job. No guarantees were given and some of their contemporaries who followed the same route have not been so fortunate.

I invariably ask them about their school/university mates and it does not make for happy listening. The top guys with good degrees may well end up in the city but they seem to be a tiny minority and the pressure can be immense with little job satisfaction. Many of the others seem to end up in some other form of employment which is neither fulfilling nor well paid. The only really happy ones seem to be the ones who have followed a more vocational route. Meanwhile the guy sitting next to me says he has no regrets and talks optimistically about the future.

I do worry for my children and will not encourage or discourage them to go into flying but if I was starting again and determined to fly I would go MPL or, at a push, Integrated with a known UK School. Without that relative security the risks are too great. It's a great shame because the route I took was a lot more fun and open to the majority of people who do not have access to huge amounts of money/credit.

"It is what pays the mortgage/rent and pays the car bills and the food, loans, credit cards, clothing, heat, light and entertainment. "

That has to be the joke of the century!

The profession is as it is because to many like to moan and complain, if they have a chance to change something they have very little loyalty and courage.

There are more good jobs than just working in the "city", so let's not just keep on how that is the alternative to a flying career.

Would I spend the next 25 years doing 900 (or 1000 a year) short haul? No way, it will literally kill you. I think the majority have painted a relatively dark and gloom picture of the profession, which unfortunately is very correct.

"It is very regimented and repetitive job you see crew room, flight deck, runway, sky, runway, 10 min outside doing the walk round, say hello to cabin crew then flight deck, runway, sky, runway, crew room and repeat." also add no chance for a proper rest or hot meal in a 12 - 14 hour day.

It's funny how on one of the Wannabe threads I got slaughtered by a certain poster here, who seems to maybe have some interests in continued training, I am guessing TRE's probably don't need to worry about if they can afford some peanuts at the end of their day!:D