Good to see everyone coming out of the post-Christmas blocks in fighting form. Trying to prove to everyone that you should have filled-in the uSay questionnaire is like to trying to prove to the NRA in the States that there is relationship between gun crime and gun availability. It is not a direct relationship, but the relationship exists nonetheless for anyone who wants to take a rational view of it. The problem is that the NRA cannot cede ground for fear of losing everything, and they therefore end up arguing black is white. It is totally self-evident that guns being around mean more people get shot - but not to people who have much to lose by admitting the truth that everyone else sees. That is what it is like trying to get those who vote with their feet see the practical outworking of their actions.

Whilst still on the subject of the US, arguably the world's greatest democracy, typically less than 55% of eligible voters ever vote in presidential elections. Does anyone care what the other 45% thought? Not one bit, sadly. Put simply, you have to be in it to win it - no one cares what a non-voter thinks as they have no influence of any kind. People who do not vote sometimes do it out of apathy and sometime as a statement - however well-intentioned they may have been, they just leave the field of play and take no further part in proceedings. Nearer home, many people are happy to let everyone else be in BALPA so they can pay the subs, but are disgruntled when BALPA is not as effective as they wanted and therefore cite that as a reason for not joining BALPA. What gives a Union power is the percentage support among its members. Yet there are numerous people openly saying they will support BALPA when it becomes more powerful - they may be waiting a very long time.

That brings us to the issue of uSay, and the proud list of non-participants on display here. It is totally self-evident that if your opinion is asked, and you decline to give it, then your opinion no longer counts. The root of the ill-feeling here lies in the fact that under a previous CEO, positive uSay results (called Pulse then), were used to adversely affect the outcome of subsequent pay talks. I fully accept that such a crass move by management was a terrible tactical blunder that opened the door to the mistrust that exists today. Nonetheless, we have to be bigger than that, and recognise that to decline to give an opinion is interpreted as not having one. Hence the tragedy that our senior management believe that the only people who care about flexicrew (trust me - this is absolutely the case), are the Trainers because they are the main ones making a fuss about it. In visits round crewrooms, the flexicrew stay quiet or just grovel in front of key people, the line crews often do not get involved because 'nothing ever changes anyway', and then hardly any pilots fill-in uSay. They see that as a protest - the Company see it as a lack of interest. A painful truth, but a truth nonetheless.

Two things ADM. 1. I have a union 2. Show me where easy have improved the important things after finding out about them in usay/ pulse. Simples.

AdM
I'm a line drive at Orange world and your statement about us not being interested about Flexicrew is complete BS. Many of us have expressed our view on this immoral practice to both management and BALPA because blind Freddie can see it's the thin edge of the wedge and will end up in those in the LHS enjoying Ryanair terms and conditions.

If you are going to make a statement like that then either get your facts right or just speak for yourself.

The general consensus is in fact that Flexicrew is possibly one of the most disgraceful things to ever happen to this industry and when you sit next to the boys and girls who are on these conditions you can see the fear in their eyes about stepping out of line and losing their precious opportunity to fly a shiny jet.

The longer WB is running operations the more blue and white this company is becoming.

AdM
I too am offended by your assertion that only trainers have voiced their discontent regarding flexicrew. This is simply not true. I for one have written e mails to CMcC and others, had meetings with my Base Captain and have been very vocal in my dealing with BALPA to get this sorted. I know I am not alone.
As for uSay. Why should the management care if we are engaged at 10% or 99%. It makes no difference to them.
Do we as individuals do what we can to get the aircraft away on time? Yes.
We report before our start time to get through all the frustrations of IT and wade through the reams of paperwork. We leave the crewroom at STD-45 regardless of whether it is a CAVOK day with no MEL issues or a miserable day with various faults on the aircraft. Result high OTP therefore high engagement.
We proudly adopt the latest fuel saving measures. Increasing percentage of OETD/OETAs, flaps 3 landings and arrivals with CNR. Result decreasing fuel burn therefore high engagement.
We kid ourselves by those wishing to protest ticking the most negative comment in the uSay box but continue to do all that we can to increase OTP and fuel efficiency.
So why waste your time on a survey?
Personally, I think the company is OK for me but is a source of shame when it comes to the employment practices of our new joiners. If we wanted to demonstrate our unity to get flexicrew sorted the answer is not uSay.

What pitotheat said.

Adm,

You need to pull your head out your backside mate!.

It is great to see people standing up for our flexi colleagues.
There are, however, a awful lot more, as ADM seems to highlight, that couldn't give a monkeys ass!

We all need to stand together.

AdM, there are plenty of people caring about the flexicrew saga.

Fact: The CCs top priority this year is the issue of Flexicrew. This is based on a survey of the membership.

Do we even work in the same airline? And same base? Yes.

Is the WB the same WB that got sacked from FR?

The same WB that wrote to all the FO's at STN saying that if they joined a union that they wouldn't ever get a command?

Apparently he was too radical for even Bryan Airways.

My poor Orange Souls, I do really feel for you.

BALPA has really dropped a ball on this flexicrew thing.

If the past NEC Vice-chair had not been in BA's pocket and concentrated more on the Flexicrew issue rather than her pet European Union issue (and getting herself a management job) then things might well have been different.

What do you do now though?

"Squeal like a pig boy"

:\:\schreech schreech:{:{

Flexi crew
 

As a few people have pointed out, we need to stand together over this flexi crew issue, it should have never of happened in the first place.

I feel sorry for the you guYs and girls who drag themselves into work when clearly they are all scared of not getting a perminent contract. I have almost sent a couple of guys home who have not been 100%.

CM WB are only Interested in the share price and are not interested in the general well being of the pilots or cabin crew.

I would say that moral is on the same par as when Andy Harrison was CEO.

Regarding new enterants contracts, this should not be allowed to happen, as sooner or later they will start Messing around with the new command contracts too. So it's in everyone's interest to say NO!

We are all professional people doing an extremely responsible job and should be awarded accordingly, we shouldn't have to flight for the basic things like a RPI pay increase to cover the general expense of existing.

I wish all the Easyjet pilot unions would work together, I.e they should all have pay negotiaons at the same time or within a few days of each other, and agree a general strike date, this would really make the company sit up and listen, as it would cost them MONEY.

UNITED WE STAND, UNITED WE FALL.

I agree with you 100%.

...divided we fall":)

Pilots can not fight against these flexible contracts and pay to fly programs.

In USA they are considered illegal and as long we have corrupt legislators who sleep with flight schools, TRTO and airlines managers, things are not going to change in a better way.


Europe, JAA and easa are a scheme to humanity.
We all need pills of imodium.

ROSCO 328 - Disappointed to see you being a buffoon. I thought you had more about you than that. Have a reasoned discussion by all means and produce rational arguments by way of disagreement, but plonker comments are way beneath you.

fmgc - your comments about a current pilot manager are simply not accurate. She, of all people, fought the flexicrew issue when others on the CC were not interested. She is exactly who you want in management, and I do not see her as having sold out in any way. Indeed, we need managers who are competent and capable but who are also able to see our perspective. Incidentally, numerous ex-BALPA officials have gone on to hold management appointments in the airline industry and I have no issue with it if they behave reasonably.

pitotheat - it is not my assertion that only Trainers have voiced their discontent, as it is clearly not the case. The problem is that key elements of management believe that to be the case, and that is a problem. I commend you for writing to CMcC on the issue - I hope others will do the same. I would, however, encourage anyone thinking of writing to ensure that they sound rational and educated and not produce some misspelt ramble with a pile of grammatical errors and factual inaccuracies (not for a moment suggesting your email was that by the way).

I would have to put my hand up and say that at the very beginning of the flexicrew issue some years ago, along with many others, I never saw the situation arising that we have today - sadly BALPA did not either. Nonetheless, that is where we are and a battle looms with no certain outcome. I back BALPA's position 100% and recognise that this is a battle we simply have to win. I have doubts about our legal position, and I hope there are some pretty sharp lawyers out there who will guide BALPA step by step through a potential minefield of litigation. Interesting times ahead.

How do you know this, the CC should work under the Chatham House rules so the only way you should know what the other CC members said or thought is to have been on the CC yourself.

Fmgc
 

Do the Chatham House rules not allow for dissemination of information so long as the quoted party is in agreement? And providing anonymity is provided?

That is my understanding.

As a former CC member elsewhere, it was always thus.

There's nothing that can be done. It's not in the interest of easyJet, CTC or cheap fares (which is all Joe Public is bothered about). Flexicrew is here to stay. Permanent positions in the UK will never be available. New tax rules for pilots working abroad. eJ is a bad place to be for newbies and will soon be for permanents based abroad who commute. Fun times ahead for all. I'd happily be proven wrong! But alas I doubt I will be. Ciao darlings.

You could be right, but I thought that it was only the group decision/view that was to be made available rather than any individual opinion.

I was on a CC for a long time too.

How about we put our dirty laundry away into the private forum?

Hey, nobody forced you to become a pilot and join easyJet.


Did the put a gun on your face? If you don't like it, leave.... I know millions of pilots who will be happy to take your place....

No. How about we air our dirty linen and show the :mad: stains to our neighbours thus showing how we really live rather than pretending we are " whiter than white "

Or Oranger than Orange!

Well, it was just a thought. Mr Mugabe, how come you never post in the other forum anymore?

For the simple reason it makes no difference to post in the company forum as it is full of company people. Much better out here where it might provide prospective employees an insight.... warts and all.

nobody forced you to become a pilot
 

"nobody forced you to become a pilot"

True but it avoids addressing the issues pilots now face.

How about you go on a soup run helping the down and outs and say to them

"nobody forced you to take that job that you got fired from and are now destitute" !

Or to the mother with kids to feed in Amsterdam " no one forced you to take up prostitution"

Poor argument really !

And what about change job....?

I know guys who changed 3x job and who have been pilot and become photographer .
Aviation is a hobby.

So don't moan....

Just out of curiosity what happened to the USAY results? I know they were absolute **** but I thought they were going to still be given out for each base so we could all admire the scores. I am getting the impression cazza has swept them under the orange carpet in the hanger. Still one cheap bottle of champers I guess all is forgiven. :ugh:

I think they are on "inside" I saw something the other day... Pilot engagement was up, but still a very low telling number...

Would the OP care to update us.

Has he left the Orange world?

nobody forced you to become a pilot
"nobody forced you to become a pilot"

True but it avoids addressing the issues pilots now face.

How about you go on a soup run helping the down and outs and say to them

"nobody forced you to take that job that you got fired from and are now destitute" !

Or to the mother with kids to feed in Amsterdam " no one forced you to take up prostitution"

Poor argument really !

Indeed! This is true of many industries and especially that of ours which we know best. There is only 1 response to the apathetic attitude espoused here: "all it takes for the bad guys to win is for the good guys to do nothing." The tolpuddle martyrs were centuries ago, but my god they had more calejones than many whimps pontificating on here. I admit I now watch from the side-lines and it distresses me that which I see.

I like the phrase by Edmund Burke better: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

or even more eloquently put: "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."[

We're getting stiffed across the network while our unions do nothing (nothing effective at least).

Our profits increase year on year and now in Italy we're being offered a below inflation "pay rise", but even worse, that's capped! You can be sure our Managers and Directors will all get significant increases.

It's not just about the money, lifestyle's important. Are the lifestyle proposals clear to you??? Might their complexity be exploited by our overlords?

How we're treated at work has an important bearing on our lifestyle. How's that working out for you? How are your hotels/crew food? How useful is your 'Staff Travel'???

GREENEDGEJET. very well put and entirely truthful. I just hope I can stay flying for the next 14 years on present t and c,s (not EZY). How terribly sad that the profesion of piloting aeroplanes has been reduced to this by these "employers".The next logical step I can see is an attack on Captains t and c,s within these type of outfits. Good luck to all.

If you take the emotion out of the debate, it's rational for management to lower the T&Cs and general cost of recruitment when there are suitably qualified people queuing up by the truck load to "work."

Most of us would do something similar if under the pressure that management are.

It's entirely logical that LHS T&Cs will come under pressure next.

The only argument againt is that the current policy impacts upon safety if the quality of cadets is not satisfactory. I think we are at that point and that should be the focus.

Historical T&Cs are a distant dream and have lagged behind advances in technology, as TCX pilots will find out.

It's entirely logical that LHS T&Cs will come under pressure next.

That will be a natural evolution. As RHS T's & C's are diluted, when they graduate to LHS they will carry those diluted T's & C's with them. Sure, they will get an increase and grab it both hands. Thus the downward cycle will continue until the job is understood and perceived to be unattractive. Who knows where the tipping line will be; that is being tested every year. Eventually the gap between the small, aspiring, airlines, the successful LoCo's and the legacy carriers will be so wide that the supply of puppies will dry up. The legacy carriers will have their own schools again and no-one will want to gamble a a fortune on getting a licence and a job at the bottom of the food chain in the hope of moving outwards and upwards. It won't happen. We've seen for years that the legacy carriers recruit from within their own system. In days of dire shortage and expansion they took a few outsiders, but I think those days are gone. The same will be true for cabin crew and engineers. The hatchet men of these new airlines will drive the T's & C's so low they will cause a dry up of puppies in all 3 categories mentioned. Daddy or the bank will look closely and the prospects and advise accordingly. Meanwhile the greed at the top will have been fruitful in the short term and the sunny Caribbean will be full of ex-CEO's who don't give a toss.
"Don't let your off-spring go near them Mrs Worthington."