Ryanair Pay v's Costs for Cadets
 

Hi,

I'm trying to find out a breakdown of pay v's costs for new starters at Ryanair....

I know cadets are required to pay for security passes, uniform etc etc but how much does this all actually cost?

I would also like to know what the starting wage is whilst on line training? And what it rises to after the 500 hrs?
I have read so many different accounts and would be very interested to hear from someone who has recently been through it and actually knows as opposed to a bitter and twisted trol who has nothing positive to add!

There was a really interesting post made by a guy which gave his full breakdown of costs over his first year, this was quite old though and I am aware things have declined a bit since then.

I'd really appriciate it if we could just keep this on topic! I have read the vast majority of the slagging about the company, please just don't bother if you haven't got anything positive to contribute although I'm not holding my breath!!

Please feel free to PM me with details if you would rather.

Many Thanks

Do new starters get paid by ryanair?

I always thought it was the other way around?

Hmm...
That didn't take long did it?!
Been there, done it.
Don't do it.
Just some friendly advice from a better place.

First of all: new starters MUST pay social security in the country where they are assigned to base according to the new EU law : EUROPA - PRESS RELEASES - Press Release - Social security: improved and simplified rules for aircrew and cross-border self-employed workers
Therefore a breakdown should be made according to where Ryanair will decide for you to be based and that is decided after your line traing if successful; bear in minf that social contributions vary greatly between different countries.

During your line training you only start getting paid after safety pilot release so up to then you will have paid well over 30.000€ between type rating, hotels and food.
Once you start getting paid you can deduct the TR cost monthly from your LTD (they will have you become a LTD director in Ireland), before you reach 500 hours you will be making between 2 and 3000€ average but again, this was before the new EU rule and is always dependent on how many hours you fly and lately there are way too many F/Os and 1 flying day out of 5 working isn't unusual. I hear of many F/Os flying barely 40 hours lately.
After the 500 hour mark you can expect to make between 3 and 4.5k depending on hours flown but bear in mind that these numbers include TR deductions and Irish social security so a new breakdown would have to take into account much higher SS and a 1k cut after your TR has been fully deducted (approximately 1.5 years after start of line training).

All in all a damn pathetic deal if you consider paying for uniform, car park, food, drinks, renting a place at base,own loss of licence, own pension scheme, own hotels for out of base and sim training etc.

.........and people actually sign up to this?:{

Thanks very much Dannyalliga, an interesting read.

Any ideas how long it takes for safety pilot release, or is this on an individual basis?

I know it's not fantastic but there's no taking away from the fact that after a few years (perhaps more now with reduced hours), you will have an unfrozen licence and some good experience to enable you to go looking for better T&C's.

If you speak to anyone in pretty much any industry they all say "it's not what it used to be!", this is certainly true of the medical and teaching profession, building trade, the police, fire service etc etc. Times have changed and you can either chose to roll with it and open doors or moan and not create any opportunitys for yourself in the coming years.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers

Times are changing because people like you are willing to hand over anything so they can to fly a jet. Crazy.

Times are indeed changing ask the guys and girls in AirFrance KLM CargoLux and Netjets all considered in the last few decent employers. Pensions for pilots almost don't exist anymore and everybody will go through a layoff or two these days.

Just curious about the tax situation for, say, a UK pilot based abroad.

Do you pay local social security, Irish corporation tax and finally UK income tax when you pay yourself a dividend / and or salary from your company?

Positive

By and large a good standard of training. It IS a training airline.
Extensive route network offering operational variety
Stable roster pattern which has maximum advantage if you are at your desired/home base
Ticketless/free jumpseat system for commuting

Negative

Massive financial outlay
Zero pay for most of your training / low pay from safety pilot release to 500hrs on type. Payment rates for FOs appear to continually reduce.
No guarantee of base
Largely no guarantee of annual hours although Storm suggest a guarantee of 30hrs per month (Therefore the minimum and only guarantee would be 330 hrs per year accounting for the compulsory month off)
Likely reduction in future prospects as expansion has ended ie time to command will increase
Complex taxation system. Many query it's legality
Increasingly seasonal position
Top heavy with FOs

:mad: I can name at least one airline in the UK where you don't pay for your typerating AND get a decent salary from the moment you sign on the dotted line.

Groundie question, I think very relevant?

Have you over committed financially?

dannyalliga,

Very interesting post. Here in the US, we often envy our EU brothers, but Ryanair shows that sometimes your own grass is greener.

From a regional pilot perspective, I wonder why on earth anybody would sign up for that? Paying for parking, training, hotels etc?

Pray tell, what is the allure of Ryanair? How do they find people to sign up for this? What draws people to this company?

.....because with after 160 hours (Total time) you can be sitting in the RHS of a nice shiney B737.....and your foot on the first rung of the ladder. Opportunities in Europe are limited to say the least. While I agree with the sentiments of not paying for training etc, its a very lonely place to watch class mates and colleagues get employed and get experience while you sit at home unemployed with nothing but your principles to keep you warm.
Ryanairs expansion is now over (no more deliveries) so it is only a matter of time before the 'cadet' factory ceases production. The word will get out "oh yeah you get a type rating but no flying"...

Its not that simple though. Airlines with "better T's & C's" as you put it, are struggling to stay afloat because of this very business model that people subscribe to. The employee cost base is simply higher at other airlines thus reducing profits thus reducing T's & C's. Better T's & C's will not be around when you reach the 2500-3000 hour mark, up unless you plan to move to the Middle East, and it isn't all that great out there now.

"We" as a community of pilots need to stop this self destructive process that we have allowed happen. The only way we can do this is via a union, but they seem (as is usual with unions) all words, no actions.

Anyone got any current figures regarding what a fo takes home after tax at Ryanair.

yeah,better stay home unemployed waiting for the call of a company who gives me 10000 euros,free type,5 stars hotel....then wake up at 35 and discover im too old to be called.

Depends on FO's experience, contract type, hours flown, tax regulations, tax deductions (and now SI legislations). Too many variables to give a good answer. Would guess the median to be around 3000 euro/months at this time of the year.

If you are talking about net and during the winter then as an average then that figure is very very ambitious.

It's pay to fly.
 

You are technically buying a Job from them. The overall cost of the whole type rating programme is well above €32k, and that only secures you a 6 month contract, and the contract isn't even with ryanair, you are contracted to work 6 months for a company that distributes pilots to Ryanair. I think the company is called Brookfield Aviation. And even after all this balooney, you're getting less than €2k a month. You're just buying a temporary contract here.

@Airbusa320.Easyjet
 

I don't know where you have got your information from, but I must say that you are a bit out of date regarding "6-month contract only", "Brookfield" and "net pay of less than Eur2k/month".

Go on then astound us with the current T and Cs on offer to cadets at Ryan Air. free type rating, 50k a year salary, LOL plus PHC insurance, 35 day paid holiday, Sick pay, Pension, Union recognition???????

No? Thought not!

I bumped into a FR cadet last summer trying to find the best place to settle down for the night as he was sleeping in his car for a week, I kid you not.

I'm not a RYR apologist. But, can you name anywhere that is offering those sorts of T&Cs to cadets, because I'll be at the front of the queue!

Enzo999 sums up the confusion over Ryanair. Yes cadets dont get many things because they are contractors. However all is not as it seems.

Being contractors works for 'them' as most dont pay much if any tax (legit) for the first few years while they claim their training costs back via expenses.

As soon as the the training costs dry up and the tax starts kicking in they apply for a Ryanair contract - smart move.

If they can get one and when on a permanent contract they get a pilots allowance to cover LOL/PHC/Medical etc

Not sure what it is for FOs but UK Capts get £6000pa to cover all the above. Thats money is yours to do what you with. As far as FR is concerned you can get on a flight to Vegas with the missus and lob it all on black they dont care its just comes into your salary every month.

Of course now being being FR employees they get Paid Holiday/Sick Pay and enrol in the company pension.

With no seniority, good quality training, interesting route network and new planes, a command is in the offing after 3000 hours if they are up to it or its gained them enough experience to go and play with BA's, Emirates or China Southerns train sets which is where most seem to go.

Ryanair is not perfect but its a foot in the door and better than a kick in the balls.

Short term pain for long term gain - possibly somewhere else.

Ps trying to be balanced if thats possible in a Ryanair thread.

A massive load of out of date and nonsense here...as usual!

New cadets at Ryan are all paid via storm contract (the new and improved Brookfield......) which means after the sim duductions of 4.50e per hr you are paid <500 hrs on type 50.50e, after 500hrs on type (about 7 months on line) 65.5e, and after 1500hrs 70.5e. Full time Ryan contracts vary by base and country, and the storm contract is paid that rate regardless of base. Once eligible for upgrade you can get 8e an hr extra, and any out of base you get additional 20e per schedule block hr. All pay is schedule block, so when the French strike and your on ground with a slot it's all unpaid...

Tr cost, 29500e. Also need to factor in rent+food for about 8 weeks. All unpaid.

After training, for around 20 sect max you will have safety pilot, so no pay, but this is normally only a week. During line training pay is about 30e per hr, for about 80-90 sectors.

Hrs vary by base, STN/dub is always busy, 800-850per yr. smaller bases vary, and in the winter these smaller bases chop and change very quickly so not ideal. The canaries is a good one, with all days being around 8hr block, you work 10 days a month down there.

Tax. You are now forced to use their nominated accountants. Each have their pros and cons, but they are more legit than in past, which means people are paying social security as an employer and employee...MOL likes to shirk his responsibilities on social security...while you have expenses you can work tax free, for around 18month - 2yrs. Or, pay some small tax and drag expenses out longer. Some FO's whilst on the expenses train clear 6k e a month. After expenses used up, in uk expect to lose 35-40% to tax.

Holiday pay, none as contractor, one month unpaid leave to be taken as one, and 10 days to take unpaid as you wish. Can be hard to get approved. Sick pay, zero.

Pros, if based at home, great roster, otherwise get used to commuting. Most people get base of choice eventually, at the moment due to crew shortages people get bases very quick. Quick upgrade, option to work in sim as an fo and become a tri, secondments on to Learjet fleet if that takes your fancy, lots of experience very quickly due to network and high hrs rosters. Lots of opportunities to become ltc when upgraded if that is your thing. Well maintained fleet. Cons, contractor status, fear of tax man coming knocking, no protections, no sick pay, lots of unpaid work (everyday during preflight is all unpaid..every turnaround unpaid, every slot unpaid...). Buy your uniform, pay your car parking, pay for your id.

A lot of long timers at Ryan, 20+ yrs, so can't be all that bad.

I can think of an airline like that too... I wonder if it is the same one? If so, it is the *only* airline that does it but you do have to spend 12 months doing office work first

What is the payscale for experienced FOs? ie 5000-ish hours on type?

To put things in another perspective, the Ryanair TR is maybe the cheapest one you can do out there (despite the regular price increase, it was only 27 000 euro a few years ago). The reason being it's your company that pays for it, not you with your privately earned, taxed, money.



All the same as the Brookfield except the rates have been dropped when > 500 hrs, >1500 hrs and the 'command ready' rate.



Experience (or loyalty) is not valued in Ryanair. You will earn the same as all other FOs. With that I mean, there is no special contract for you just because you've got plenty of hours. Contracts vary by base.

Well, ultimately the governments of the eu fund it...by cadets not paying tax! And their uniforms, ids, car parking.....and there I was think subsidies to airlines was not allowed anymore...and the eu are in effect funding mol via the back door...without even realising....idiots. 2 years tax free...probably an average of 60k of expenses per cadet, and 700 being hired this year, that's 42m euros in untaxed wages across the eu...

By the time all you golden boys have finished your time in Ryanair there will be no other better T&C to move to, because all has to compete in the race to the bottom. The day we see Ryanair can no longer get cadets, we will se better T&C ahead. Until then, stick your head in the sand, or stand up for yourself.

And regarding other industries, what an utter bull!!!!, tell a new graduated plumber to work for free 12 month.. He'll laugh at you rest of the day ..the reality is, he'll make more than you until you upgrade ;-)

To all of you about Ryanair is topnotch, yes, I'm sure it is not bad for captains, but where are we if we accept cadets are still treated this way, or is it a new safety regulation maybe that FOs sleep best in their cars!?

@UAV689
 

Spot on regarding the T&C in Ryanair!

Except that you're not charged 35-40% tax on your whole net pay - there are personal tax allowances that you claim and then there are tax bands with only the part of the salary above £43,000 that you pay 40% in UK. Other countries have their personal allowances and tax bands which can be different.

It is worth noting that those hourly rates are €6, 7 and 14 respectively below what was on offer 5 years ago. The cost of living hasn't exactly gone down since.

People who have been with Ryanair 20 years will be on permanent contracts from when Ryanair was a notoriously generous employer (yes, it did happen once!) but receiving barely inflation in terms of pay rises since.

NP [QUOTE]You do effectively get a free type rating as you're claiming the costs back through expenses./QUOTE]

Please tell us more.

I was under the impression that TR costs are not tax deductible in the UK. Is it because you are a "business" and the TR is a "business" expense? This whole self employed thing is a can of worms, a disaster waiting to happen! And I have to say as someone paying Their fair share of tax through PAYE I hope this comes to an end soon. Why should one pilot get away with paying the square root of F all whilst I pay 40 percent?

Norwegian are offering the same sort of gig for cadets on their 737 800 , with OSM. The cost of their type rating is Approx 24,000 Euro.
I don't think they can write it off against tax, however I think they are taxed at a very low rate for the first year or so.
Second hand information from friends so am open to correction, however for a similar role (getting into the industry and 500 hours ) seems like another option.

Seen as this has been resurrected I thought I'd pass on what how I've found the last few years with Ryr.

I've been lucky, based initially in a nice base in the far south of Europe and then more recently back at home in the UK.
Money has been alright, its a bit of a pain submitting expenses every month but thats just the way it is.
I dont agree with the above re the rating being for free but you do certainly get a portion of it back as its claimed back against tax in the first couple of years.

The flying is good and relatively interesting, the company seems to be changing for the better, summer leave and the roster is pretty much unbeatable.

Don't get me wrong, there are still issues and there always will be with a company this size but I generally find that if you keep your head down, fly the plane how they want, do the paperwork correctly, do a bit of study for the sim's / line checks and you will be very much left alone.

Roughly 3 years after first setting foot in a 737 flight deck Im now approaching being considered to do the command upgrade training, I have an unfrozen licence and Im also eligible to apply elsewhere in search of a better job.
For me the opportunity to have, in another 3 years time, over 5000 total time and 2000 pic on a medium sized jet is very appealing and Im almost certain I'll hang around and have a crack at the command.

In response to weeonerotate's comments;

"And regarding other industries, what an utter bull!!!!, tell a new graduated plumber to work for free 12 month.. He'll laugh at you rest of the day ..the reality is, he'll make more than you until you upgrade ;-)"

Yes maybe the building trade is alright at the moment but when the next recession hits it won't be. Also a plumber who has done an apprenticeship has already spent the previous few years working for absolute peanuts.
How about the other industries? Medical profession, the police and fire service have all had pay freezes which with inflation are effectively pay cuts over the last few years (certainly in the UK).

Also we're not really working for free are we? After the rating and once safety pilot released we are earning and seeing some money coming back, according to my payroll report on a certain rostering site I have flown a little over 2600 h and made approaching 195,000 euro in the last 3 years. Take the rating out and some costs say 60k that is still 45,000 eu a year on average. Not the best pay around but not that bad either.

I've met quite a few lads over the last few years, lots of them have now moved on to the likes of BA, Thomson, J2, Emirates, Qatar, Etihad and corporate jobs. I've never heard anyone say they regret joining Ryr. Please don't mistake me as a brown nose, Im not but there are very few places where lads with low experience can go, fly 900 hours a year, get exposure to flying in challenging environments and ultimately get their flying career up and running.

I suspect the same argument will be doing the rounds in years to come about people accepting poorer terms than what was previously on offer. I do understand where the argument comes from however market forces drive everything and unfortunately I can't see anything changing for the better.

Of course now you cannot unfreeze your license until upgrade sim. Rusty handcuffs!

I guess nothing stops you from renting a sim with a friend and doing an ATPL skill test yourself?

I keep reading on this thread people saying things like "it's a stepping stone to something better" "it's a way to get those all important hours etc". You are missing the point, nothing better exists these days, because in order to compete with Ryan Air all the other carriers have had to drop their T and Cs to match! By accepting these S&@t deals you have ruined the whole industry. I am just about to start working for a national flag carrier and the Terms are no better than my first job 11 years ago!!!!

Anyone coming in to this industry be aware there is no pot of gold under the rainbow the Terms you agree to today will possibly be as good as your ever going to get. You have to ask yourself if that's good enough to warrant 120 grands worth of investment! I know what my answer would be.