Ms. Turret (ozi) wrote ( and then removed it ).....
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"Ryanair is wildly successful, and has no end of enthusiastic young men and women lining up to join, because it offers thing that few other companies do. Sexy brand new jets usually way out of reach for people with next to no experience.."
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Why has it traditionally been a good idea to put people with more than "next to no experience" into the right hand seat of a jet transport ? This is a trend that is spreading within the industry simply because it reduces the wage bill. I fear that only when the insurance companies wise up to this practice ( and that will happen when they are forced to reach into their pockets), will this practice be curtailed. If the premiums set for placing " no / very low experience pilots" in the flight deck, start to outweigh the commercial advantages then this practice will slow down. In my opinion the sooner the better. If some of the companies could get away with only using one driver, then they would do it in a heartbeat. This practice is the best they can get away with at the moment.

In addition:

No uniform paid for, No car parking, no crew food, no crew water, no uniform cleaning vouchers, no pension, no medicals paid for, no medical insurance, no PHi, no quality of life.

No SELF RESPECT.

Sad???? It's not sad, it's ******* tragic that people debase themselves in such a way.

Ozi, my outlook differs from yours, since I have an ounce of self respect. This job is not all sweetness and light, and at the end of the day, it is just that, a JOB.

If I make money for somebody else, I expect a share of it. Simple as that. I don't go to work for the sake of my health, I do it because I have to to pay the bills. If I was in the situation where I didn't need to work, then I wouldn't.

Getting paid to work IS a right not a priveledge. The days of indentured slavery were thought to be over (maybe not anymore).
Ever heard the phrase "A fair days wage for a fair days work."?

As I said before, the idiots are not the management, but the saps who think they are helping themselves over the long run by accepting these T's and C's. In a few years time, why would the airlines ever employ any experienced F/O's when they can get newly minted ones for ****** all? Doing your long term career prospects a lot of good eh.....

The equipment I fly is only part of what makes my job enjoyable, flying IS fun, but how much time do you actually spend with your hands on the controls of a shiny NG jet??? For fun flying, give me an Extra 300 anyday of the week over a 73. At least I can actually afford to fly that myself. When you're my age, do you think you'll be able to if salaries and conditions keep dropping?

Why did you remove your post??

Ozi is quite obviously management, or a management stooge at least.
Ozi, you speak continually of "our" record profits. Do you really think anyone gives a damn that we made x% more profit than last years y large amount, when the amount the pilots see of it diminishes in real terms by the year?

How much does one pay for accomodation on average?...I'm married..no children as yet..

and could you kindly enlighten me re their fixed roster patterns?

DS

You can pay whatever you like for accomodation, a 2 bed semi rents at around £600-£900 pcm in the Stansted area. The contract guys generaly pay B&B at around £15-£20 per night.

Rosters for full time guys are 5 on 3 off. For the contractors it was 5 on 5 off the last I heard.

Hello batty,

Why is the take home salary much lower for guys who are based abroad in Italy, Ireland compared with UK salaries??

I would have thought that for instance year 3 take home £3300, therefore being based in Ireland or Germany it's just a case of 3300 X 1.41 ( exchange rate ) = €4653 Euros

Thanks!

Unfortuantly you would be wrong, each base has its own pay scale.

Bealzebub,
I suspect Ms Turret removed said post when he realised he'd blown his (flimsy) cover and revealed both his management credentials (though they were rather obvious anyway) but also, and more importantly, FR's cavalier attitude towards the need for experience in the flight deck if its cheaper to do it another way.
I doubt we'll be seeing any more use of the handle Ms Turret.

Hi Batty or Ozi,

Would you be able to advise how much do you pay on average for accomodation if you are stationed in Ciampino or Bergamo? I'm married...no kids.

And would you know how much a senior first officer gets monthly if based in Italy? Net ( Could you also explain tax matters pls?)

and is it true that if you apply online and get accepted, you get a 6 month 6 month contract?


thanks a million guys...

Hi DS,
Bergamo isn't expensive, with very nice hotels in the old town that do great aircrew deals. If you want to be at the airport, there's a very good B and B not far away at around €45 per night. Ciampino is another kettle of fish, rather more expensive, but not too bad. Sorry I don't have specifics at hand. Money wise, are you to be a contractor or on a permanent FR contract? If the former, your roster will be a bit all over the place to start with, but generally following 5/5 unless you're 'based' in which case 5/3 applies. Tax matters in this case are your own obligation. If the latter, its about 3-4 thousand € per month after tax, as I understand. Good luck.

Hi Max, good to see you still lurking. The post was removed because I regreted its tone. The strength of my argument doesn't require such embelishments. I'm not management and my views are my own, formed over a quarter century flying planes all over the world. I like flying for Ryanair, and think its a great deal and a great company. So, it seems, do many others. No one holds a gun to the heads of cadet pilots, forcing them to accept the probationary training contracts on offer. It is what it is, and either accepted or rejected on its merrits. Most juniors take the view that short term discomfort is worth long term reward, and so do I. What strikes me as the ultimate hypocrasy though, are those who accept the contract and then start squeeling like stuck pigs at the dreadful unfairness and abuse of it all.

One thing above all strikes me as certain, though, and I'd be interested to learn of the views of others on this. LCC's are here to stay. When the dust settles in our part of the world, there will probably be Ryanair, Easyjet and Air Berlin with entrenched market share. Their impact in Europe is profound, as will shortly be discovered in Asia. Traditional ideas about T's and C's, and especially productivity, are under examination by all carriers, legacy and start ups alike. This has inevitably brought and will continue to bring unionised airlines into conflict with management, and I hold the view that its precisely for this reason we need tell BALPA/REPA to take a hike. I still believe that BALPA/REPA have a hidden ajenda, that being to score a major LCC scalp, thereby protecting the 'fur lined' conditions of legacy carriers a bit longer, and for this reason I will never be in favour of pilot unionisation. I've seen with my own eyes just how beligerent, how destructive they can be. I work hard and have made seven thousand quid so far this month, and all that without a union. Some may see that as self interest, but then you have no idea at how my career started out, the low pay and dreadful conditions I had to endure when I was a junior. Unionisation creates fewer opportunities for pilots to commence their careers. Companies like Ryanair produce and employ, are out there kicking goals whilst the BA's, Cathay's and Air France's of this world are building fences ever more quickly and wondering at the lie of the land in another 5 years....10 years. I put this question to the wannabees out there. Would you rather jump aboard and start your career in the fast lane, with all the dweadfullness of that nasty Mr O'Leary, or would you prefer to keep throwing money in the direction of BALPA and wait for your turn to come up at BA or Virgin...oh, but you need hours for that, don't you.:ok:

Hi OZ,

Thanks for yours.

What is best in your opinion to apply directly with FR or with a contractor? what's d difference? and if direclty with FR, do you get a permanent contract? 5 yrs as written on their website?

with regards to accomodation, does it have to be hotels? I mean, a modest appartment would fit the bill nicely i think..any idea of cost? and is Bergamo cheaper than Cia? thought otherwise..

a senior first officer gets 3-4k euros or sterling after tax? no big deal !

Thanks and best regards

Do both, DS. It doubles your chances of success. Both Brookfield and CAE in Amsterdam are actively looking at the moment, but you'll make more money as a contractor to begin with. If FR like the cut of your jib they'll offer you a permanent contract after a while anyway. Appartments are not usually difficult or expensive in BGY but quite a lot more expensive in CIA, where I'm told that around €1000 per month and you'll be living like Caesar, though possibly without the orgies.:E

This, Ozi, is indeed a fair point. However, my points, which you seem to be missing are twofold:
a) if cadets refused en masse to accept these poor conditions, supply and demand would alter them upwards - a situation favourable to all but unseen by most low timers.
b) you say "Traditional ideas about T's and C's, and especially productivity, are under examination " - by "under examination" you mean in a relentless downward spiral, which the LCC's (and the pilots who previously refused to stand up to them) can be blamed for. Ringfencing the "good" conditions of BA/VS and creating better at FR is NOT a bad thing. Do we really want everyone dragged down to the lowest common denominator as you seem to advocate? Don't be conned by FR propaganda, if MOL is allowed to take his preferred course, do you really think Ts and Cs will improve anywhere??

Hmm, bit like FR so. Hypocrisy here methinks.

Last time I looked easyJet were a recognised company... and doing quite well out of it too... ;)

Methinks you are just a sad little management stooge... always could tell them a mile off... :mad:

Ah, Max....never a disappointment, but nice to hear from you nonetheless.
They never will though, will they, and for precisely the reason why Ryanair is the success that it is. Supply and demand, or put more simply, market forces. It would be nice to think that Johnny Sixpack would be as offended with the effrontery of Ryanair and our like that you evidently are, Max, but the fact is people are wise to the studpidity of paying an extra 200 quid for a stale bap and a bit of rubber chicken. That cat is out of the bag. Equally, young pilots are (not before time) realising that they can take charge of their own lives, own careers, and join Ryanair and be getting on with it. Its called individual responsibility, Max, and doesn't require unions. Quite the contrary, we're thriving because we don't have them.

You suggest I have ignored to two prime points, Max. On the contrary, I have eclipsed them.
Look at the great and enduring benefit unions have created across Britain over the ages, Max. Look at the shipbuilding left, look at the primary industries, all gone. BALPA is about feathering the nests of their greatest financial contributors, the Atlantic barons at BA et.al. That and, of course and as always, the maintenance and expansion of power. Wise up, everyone, and have nothing at all to do with them. They're poison to our business.

Where does it end?
 

Where does all the ankle grabbing end Turret? First it was pay for your type rating, then, and in no particular order, uniforms, in flight water (really, can't even pay for that for your crews, pretty bloody pathetic) travel and accomodation when under line training and now I hear the next shafting is to pay for your own 6 monthly sim checks? All that really eats into the pay packet doesn't it?

I agree that LCC's are here to stay, I have no problem with that, as they fill a market niche, however, that does not mean that pilots can, and should according to your arguments, then get treated like the smelly stuff on the bottom of your shoe. We are professional's who deserve a reasonable compensation for our skills, how, as a pilot, can you not agree?

Ryanair is making huge profits, so which "Atlantic Baron" is getting fat on the toil of unpaid minnions at Ryanair? Hypocrisy reigns here in your posts mate, and its disgusting.:yuk:

Wrong again, Nosey.
 

Hi Nosey, sorry I disgust you, but your logic is, once again, all over the place.
I tend to agree with you about the water. The bill for it was ˆ340,000 per annum and is a lot of money in anyone's language. Water is still provided at every base, all that is required of us now is to fill a bottle from the water fountains. Something I consider to be nothing more than a minor inconvenience. You are plain wrong about the sim checks.

Market niche, Nosey? 25% of every flown seat kilometer in Europe growing exponentially and us alone on track to carry more passengers, more profitably than BA during 2005? Hardly a market niche.
Couldn't agree more, Nosey. In fact, if my compensation were to move in any direction other than upward, I'd seek a better deal elsewhere, a luxury not available to those of us trapped in ludicrous seniority lists. This is a fact not lost on MOL. I earned ˆ11000 this month, Nosey, which I consider to be more than reasonable. How much did you earn?
No it doesn't Nosey. I have a different point of view than yours, based on my personal experiences of our profession. I suggest you see LCC's are more of a threat than you let on and you're right to be concerned. Its a changing world! You should be sure of your facts, though, lest your ranting causes offence to those less thick skinned than myself. All the best for a happy and prosperous 2005.

I have been watching this thread for a while and it seems as always to be the same old same old.

Unfortunately, at the end of the day there is ONE thing that controls the new free market economy and that is Supply and Demand.


In my mind there is no question that conditions and pay will continue to be eroded, AS LONG AS THE SUPPLY REMAINS. People are continuing to line up for jobs at Ryanair thus the above is enevitable. I think MOL had no idea 5 years ago just how low he could drop the conditions.

What will deter him from dropping conditions to half what they are now IF he has an adequate supply of pilots? NOTHING. It is a very simple equation. Not rocket science.

When I started it was full salary from day one, payed hotel for the duration of training AND allowances. My what a change.

Without solidarity, the only answer is to enjoy that one freedom in Ryanair to which we are all entitled and leave. Adios

Happy New Year to you all

SF

The good old, bad old days.
 

Hi SF, and happy new year to you too.
This was the way of it in my last company. 2 sector days, hour and a half between turn arounds, 5 star hotels when down route.....ah, the luxury of it, ah the waste. The world seemed rather good as I perused the pages of the Financial Times......or so I thought. Needless to say, my last company went down the drain, finally collapsing under the burden of its colossal debt. When this experience occurs repeatedly, one's mind ineveitably turns to what may have caused such serial catastrophies.
The 'solidarity' you speak of SF, is in truth nothing more than a truncheon to malign effective management and divert them from the task of appropriate response in a rapidly changing market place. Frankly speaking, I would much rather be working for a strong, responsive, financially viable airline and put up with the minor irritations that come along with it, than be powdered, puffed and pampered by a company haemorrhaging cash. Profitability is the only sure guarantee of tenure in this or any business. I know this through bitter first hand experience, SF, and I can assure you that 'solidarity' was in every case either a critical symptom or direct cause of death.

I think you're spot on, though, when you suggest there are too many pilots being trained. FTO's are profit driven organisations like any other, but the irony is that in an unregulated, non-unionised workforce, companies like Ryanair can flourish, creating opportunities for hundreds of enthusiatic young pilots who otherwise would be condemned, if they're lucky, to GA or the minor league for much if not all their working lives.