Ms. Turret (ozi) wrote ( and then removed it ).....
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"Ryanair is wildly successful, and has no end of enthusiastic young men and women lining up to join, because it offers thing that few other companies do. Sexy brand new jets usually way out of reach for people with next to no experience.."
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Why has it traditionally been a good idea to put people with more than "next to no experience" into the right hand seat of a jet transport ? This is a trend that is spreading within the industry simply because it reduces the wage bill. I fear that only when the insurance companies wise up to this practice ( and that will happen when they are forced to reach into their pockets), will this practice be curtailed. If the premiums set for placing " no / very low experience pilots" in the flight deck, start to outweigh the commercial advantages then this practice will slow down. In my opinion the sooner the better. If some of the companies could get away with only using one driver, then they would do it in a heartbeat. This practice is the best they can get away with at the moment.

In addition:

No uniform paid for, No car parking, no crew food, no crew water, no uniform cleaning vouchers, no pension, no medicals paid for, no medical insurance, no PHi, no quality of life.

No SELF RESPECT.

Sad???? It's not sad, it's ******* tragic that people debase themselves in such a way.

Ozi, my outlook differs from yours, since I have an ounce of self respect. This job is not all sweetness and light, and at the end of the day, it is just that, a JOB.

If I make money for somebody else, I expect a share of it. Simple as that. I don't go to work for the sake of my health, I do it because I have to to pay the bills. If I was in the situation where I didn't need to work, then I wouldn't.

Getting paid to work IS a right not a priveledge. The days of indentured slavery were thought to be over (maybe not anymore).
Ever heard the phrase "A fair days wage for a fair days work."?

As I said before, the idiots are not the management, but the saps who think they are helping themselves over the long run by accepting these T's and C's. In a few years time, why would the airlines ever employ any experienced F/O's when they can get newly minted ones for ****** all? Doing your long term career prospects a lot of good eh.....

The equipment I fly is only part of what makes my job enjoyable, flying IS fun, but how much time do you actually spend with your hands on the controls of a shiny NG jet??? For fun flying, give me an Extra 300 anyday of the week over a 73. At least I can actually afford to fly that myself. When you're my age, do you think you'll be able to if salaries and conditions keep dropping?

Why did you remove your post??

Ozi is quite obviously management, or a management stooge at least.
Ozi, you speak continually of "our" record profits. Do you really think anyone gives a damn that we made x% more profit than last years y large amount, when the amount the pilots see of it diminishes in real terms by the year?

How much does one pay for accomodation on average?...I'm married..no children as yet..

and could you kindly enlighten me re their fixed roster patterns?

DS

You can pay whatever you like for accomodation, a 2 bed semi rents at around £600-£900 pcm in the Stansted area. The contract guys generaly pay B&B at around £15-£20 per night.

Rosters for full time guys are 5 on 3 off. For the contractors it was 5 on 5 off the last I heard.

Hello batty,

Why is the take home salary much lower for guys who are based abroad in Italy, Ireland compared with UK salaries??

I would have thought that for instance year 3 take home £3300, therefore being based in Ireland or Germany it's just a case of 3300 X 1.41 ( exchange rate ) = €4653 Euros

Thanks!

Unfortuantly you would be wrong, each base has its own pay scale.

Bealzebub,
I suspect Ms Turret removed said post when he realised he'd blown his (flimsy) cover and revealed both his management credentials (though they were rather obvious anyway) but also, and more importantly, FR's cavalier attitude towards the need for experience in the flight deck if its cheaper to do it another way.
I doubt we'll be seeing any more use of the handle Ms Turret.

Hi Batty or Ozi,

Would you be able to advise how much do you pay on average for accomodation if you are stationed in Ciampino or Bergamo? I'm married...no kids.

And would you know how much a senior first officer gets monthly if based in Italy? Net ( Could you also explain tax matters pls?)

and is it true that if you apply online and get accepted, you get a 6 month 6 month contract?


thanks a million guys...

Hi DS,
Bergamo isn't expensive, with very nice hotels in the old town that do great aircrew deals. If you want to be at the airport, there's a very good B and B not far away at around €45 per night. Ciampino is another kettle of fish, rather more expensive, but not too bad. Sorry I don't have specifics at hand. Money wise, are you to be a contractor or on a permanent FR contract? If the former, your roster will be a bit all over the place to start with, but generally following 5/5 unless you're 'based' in which case 5/3 applies. Tax matters in this case are your own obligation. If the latter, its about 3-4 thousand € per month after tax, as I understand. Good luck.

Hi Max, good to see you still lurking. The post was removed because I regreted its tone. The strength of my argument doesn't require such embelishments. I'm not management and my views are my own, formed over a quarter century flying planes all over the world. I like flying for Ryanair, and think its a great deal and a great company. So, it seems, do many others. No one holds a gun to the heads of cadet pilots, forcing them to accept the probationary training contracts on offer. It is what it is, and either accepted or rejected on its merrits. Most juniors take the view that short term discomfort is worth long term reward, and so do I. What strikes me as the ultimate hypocrasy though, are those who accept the contract and then start squeeling like stuck pigs at the dreadful unfairness and abuse of it all.

One thing above all strikes me as certain, though, and I'd be interested to learn of the views of others on this. LCC's are here to stay. When the dust settles in our part of the world, there will probably be Ryanair, Easyjet and Air Berlin with entrenched market share. Their impact in Europe is profound, as will shortly be discovered in Asia. Traditional ideas about T's and C's, and especially productivity, are under examination by all carriers, legacy and start ups alike. This has inevitably brought and will continue to bring unionised airlines into conflict with management, and I hold the view that its precisely for this reason we need tell BALPA/REPA to take a hike. I still believe that BALPA/REPA have a hidden ajenda, that being to score a major LCC scalp, thereby protecting the 'fur lined' conditions of legacy carriers a bit longer, and for this reason I will never be in favour of pilot unionisation. I've seen with my own eyes just how beligerent, how destructive they can be. I work hard and have made seven thousand quid so far this month, and all that without a union. Some may see that as self interest, but then you have no idea at how my career started out, the low pay and dreadful conditions I had to endure when I was a junior. Unionisation creates fewer opportunities for pilots to commence their careers. Companies like Ryanair produce and employ, are out there kicking goals whilst the BA's, Cathay's and Air France's of this world are building fences ever more quickly and wondering at the lie of the land in another 5 years....10 years. I put this question to the wannabees out there. Would you rather jump aboard and start your career in the fast lane, with all the dweadfullness of that nasty Mr O'Leary, or would you prefer to keep throwing money in the direction of BALPA and wait for your turn to come up at BA or Virgin...oh, but you need hours for that, don't you.:ok:

Hi OZ,

Thanks for yours.

What is best in your opinion to apply directly with FR or with a contractor? what's d difference? and if direclty with FR, do you get a permanent contract? 5 yrs as written on their website?

with regards to accomodation, does it have to be hotels? I mean, a modest appartment would fit the bill nicely i think..any idea of cost? and is Bergamo cheaper than Cia? thought otherwise..

a senior first officer gets 3-4k euros or sterling after tax? no big deal !

Thanks and best regards

Do both, DS. It doubles your chances of success. Both Brookfield and CAE in Amsterdam are actively looking at the moment, but you'll make more money as a contractor to begin with. If FR like the cut of your jib they'll offer you a permanent contract after a while anyway. Appartments are not usually difficult or expensive in BGY but quite a lot more expensive in CIA, where I'm told that around €1000 per month and you'll be living like Caesar, though possibly without the orgies.:E

This, Ozi, is indeed a fair point. However, my points, which you seem to be missing are twofold:
a) if cadets refused en masse to accept these poor conditions, supply and demand would alter them upwards - a situation favourable to all but unseen by most low timers.
b) you say "Traditional ideas about T's and C's, and especially productivity, are under examination " - by "under examination" you mean in a relentless downward spiral, which the LCC's (and the pilots who previously refused to stand up to them) can be blamed for. Ringfencing the "good" conditions of BA/VS and creating better at FR is NOT a bad thing. Do we really want everyone dragged down to the lowest common denominator as you seem to advocate? Don't be conned by FR propaganda, if MOL is allowed to take his preferred course, do you really think Ts and Cs will improve anywhere??

Hmm, bit like FR so. Hypocrisy here methinks.

Last time I looked easyJet were a recognised company... and doing quite well out of it too... ;)

Methinks you are just a sad little management stooge... always could tell them a mile off... :mad:

Ah, Max....never a disappointment, but nice to hear from you nonetheless.
They never will though, will they, and for precisely the reason why Ryanair is the success that it is. Supply and demand, or put more simply, market forces. It would be nice to think that Johnny Sixpack would be as offended with the effrontery of Ryanair and our like that you evidently are, Max, but the fact is people are wise to the studpidity of paying an extra 200 quid for a stale bap and a bit of rubber chicken. That cat is out of the bag. Equally, young pilots are (not before time) realising that they can take charge of their own lives, own careers, and join Ryanair and be getting on with it. Its called individual responsibility, Max, and doesn't require unions. Quite the contrary, we're thriving because we don't have them.

You suggest I have ignored to two prime points, Max. On the contrary, I have eclipsed them.
Look at the great and enduring benefit unions have created across Britain over the ages, Max. Look at the shipbuilding left, look at the primary industries, all gone. BALPA is about feathering the nests of their greatest financial contributors, the Atlantic barons at BA et.al. That and, of course and as always, the maintenance and expansion of power. Wise up, everyone, and have nothing at all to do with them. They're poison to our business.

Where does it end?
 

Where does all the ankle grabbing end Turret? First it was pay for your type rating, then, and in no particular order, uniforms, in flight water (really, can't even pay for that for your crews, pretty bloody pathetic) travel and accomodation when under line training and now I hear the next shafting is to pay for your own 6 monthly sim checks? All that really eats into the pay packet doesn't it?

I agree that LCC's are here to stay, I have no problem with that, as they fill a market niche, however, that does not mean that pilots can, and should according to your arguments, then get treated like the smelly stuff on the bottom of your shoe. We are professional's who deserve a reasonable compensation for our skills, how, as a pilot, can you not agree?

Ryanair is making huge profits, so which "Atlantic Baron" is getting fat on the toil of unpaid minnions at Ryanair? Hypocrisy reigns here in your posts mate, and its disgusting.:yuk:

Wrong again, Nosey.
 

Hi Nosey, sorry I disgust you, but your logic is, once again, all over the place.
I tend to agree with you about the water. The bill for it was ˆ340,000 per annum and is a lot of money in anyone's language. Water is still provided at every base, all that is required of us now is to fill a bottle from the water fountains. Something I consider to be nothing more than a minor inconvenience. You are plain wrong about the sim checks.

Market niche, Nosey? 25% of every flown seat kilometer in Europe growing exponentially and us alone on track to carry more passengers, more profitably than BA during 2005? Hardly a market niche.
Couldn't agree more, Nosey. In fact, if my compensation were to move in any direction other than upward, I'd seek a better deal elsewhere, a luxury not available to those of us trapped in ludicrous seniority lists. This is a fact not lost on MOL. I earned ˆ11000 this month, Nosey, which I consider to be more than reasonable. How much did you earn?
No it doesn't Nosey. I have a different point of view than yours, based on my personal experiences of our profession. I suggest you see LCC's are more of a threat than you let on and you're right to be concerned. Its a changing world! You should be sure of your facts, though, lest your ranting causes offence to those less thick skinned than myself. All the best for a happy and prosperous 2005.

I have been watching this thread for a while and it seems as always to be the same old same old.

Unfortunately, at the end of the day there is ONE thing that controls the new free market economy and that is Supply and Demand.


In my mind there is no question that conditions and pay will continue to be eroded, AS LONG AS THE SUPPLY REMAINS. People are continuing to line up for jobs at Ryanair thus the above is enevitable. I think MOL had no idea 5 years ago just how low he could drop the conditions.

What will deter him from dropping conditions to half what they are now IF he has an adequate supply of pilots? NOTHING. It is a very simple equation. Not rocket science.

When I started it was full salary from day one, payed hotel for the duration of training AND allowances. My what a change.

Without solidarity, the only answer is to enjoy that one freedom in Ryanair to which we are all entitled and leave. Adios

Happy New Year to you all

SF

The good old, bad old days.
 

Hi SF, and happy new year to you too.
This was the way of it in my last company. 2 sector days, hour and a half between turn arounds, 5 star hotels when down route.....ah, the luxury of it, ah the waste. The world seemed rather good as I perused the pages of the Financial Times......or so I thought. Needless to say, my last company went down the drain, finally collapsing under the burden of its colossal debt. When this experience occurs repeatedly, one's mind ineveitably turns to what may have caused such serial catastrophies.
The 'solidarity' you speak of SF, is in truth nothing more than a truncheon to malign effective management and divert them from the task of appropriate response in a rapidly changing market place. Frankly speaking, I would much rather be working for a strong, responsive, financially viable airline and put up with the minor irritations that come along with it, than be powdered, puffed and pampered by a company haemorrhaging cash. Profitability is the only sure guarantee of tenure in this or any business. I know this through bitter first hand experience, SF, and I can assure you that 'solidarity' was in every case either a critical symptom or direct cause of death.

I think you're spot on, though, when you suggest there are too many pilots being trained. FTO's are profit driven organisations like any other, but the irony is that in an unregulated, non-unionised workforce, companies like Ryanair can flourish, creating opportunities for hundreds of enthusiatic young pilots who otherwise would be condemned, if they're lucky, to GA or the minor league for much if not all their working lives.

Ms. Turret's Propaganda Efforts
 

Way back on December 23rd this entirely fictitious Ryanair pilot Ms. Turret failed to respond to the accurate post by “Wonder Brat and the rest of the whingers” and came up with a figure of 4k. per month (“she” claims this would be worth the “discomfort” described by Wonder Brat). This 4k, via a post of “7k so far this month” is now 11k per month. The trick is to persuade you to do lots of multiplying by 12, plus some self-persuasion that it would be worth it “in the short term” or “just to get started” or even worth it “in the long term when I can earn that kind of money”.

There have been enough warnings here to know exactly what you are getting into if you join Ryanair. If you are going to do it however, just do this: get them to tell you, in writing, IN ADVANCE OF BEING TRAPPED what you terms and conditions will be. The more junior and the more inexperienced you are THE MORE IMPORTANT THIS ADVICE. When they tell you that you will get your final contract later, this will constitute your final chance to escape.

Hey there mistress Ozi, any chance you could tell us about this paradise – the one you describe above: “…my last company. 2 sector days, hour and a half between turn arounds, 5 star hotels when down route..”? Which company paradise was this - like the NAME!?

Your thinly veiled threat is a joke Ms Turret. How much did I earn? Is mine bigger than yours?:rolleyes: This thread is about the appaling COS at Ryanair, and you can try and sugarcoat it as much as you like, but the reality is, it's crap. Now, you seem to be going off on a tangent about the "bad old days" when pilots were treated like people, god forbid. How is it then, that here we still get the 5 star treatment, water and food (!) and continue to make a very sizeable profit every year? You can't blame the pilots, or the unions, for causing airline bankruptcy. Why don't management (thats obviously what you are) ever blame themselves and their piss poor management and business plans when things go wrong? Its always the same, blame the pilots, its their wages that made us go broke!:yuk: You can't "save" an airline into profitability. I understand that Ryanair does not yet have that problem, and good on them for making money, but why not share the wealth a little? You have a very unhappy workforce, so time to remove head from ass and realise that. If you want to go around bagging other airlines, because they have a good COS for their staff, and call them power hungry Atlantic Barons, then you had be pretty bloody sure your not doing the same.
It might interest you to note the thread running about the tsunami victims being charged exhorbitant fees to get home, maybe, as a management type, you would like to explain that little pearler?:suspect: Nice one Ryanair top brass.:yuk:

Nosegear failure.
 

Actually, GGV, my statement is absolutely correct. "over 7000 quid so far this month" translates nicely to €11000, unfortunately, the € symbol didn't work in the relevant post. Sorry you're so easily misled. That’s how much I made, though, may MOL strike me dead if I tell a lie.
Hiya Nosey, but love, they aren't appalling. They're fabulous. Perhaps you and I measure success differently, but things like fabulous new, well maintained jets, plenty of variety, and sleeping in my own bed every night actually do mean something to me...in fact, it means a great deal. That why I choose to fly at Ryanair, and that’s why I like it…quite a lot, as you may gather.
Simple, Nosey. The Asian LCC's are just launching. Lets have this conversation again in a year or so, shall we? We’ll compare T and C notes.
Not wages, Nosey. This is the ancient and profoundly wrong smoke screen that's unions traditionally favour to mask their more wicked activities. The wages, generally speaking, are chump change given the overall balance sheet of most (non-American) airlines. Its the threat to the business model and, crucially, continued production that represents the knife held to the throat of airline businesses. And like all terrorists, pilot unions have learned a long time ago that if they threaten to rape the daughters, you can get whatever you want from daddy.
Gotcha! Fresh from the pages of Das Capitaal. Liberation of the proletariat, commitment to the unending class struggle, ad nauseum. Nosegear, old chum, by extension of your somewhat outdated logic, I presume you'd advocate reimbursing the losses of companies who treat you well yet fail to realise a profit in the marketplace? Were you around sharing the risk, sharing the overdraught when the Ryan family had their collective backs against the wall looking at the very real possibility of total ruin? I don’t think so. You’re keen to shove your hand out when times are good, though. Risk equals reward, Nosey, in life, in business, in love, in everything.

Listen carefully. If you don't like what we at Ryanair have on offer, stay away. If you're already here and don't like it, leave. The market will determine our success or failure as an airline, and the market will determine, whether you like it or not, Nosey, the nature of the terms and conditions Ryanair offers to its pilot employees. I'm one of them, around for longer in this business than I care to remember, and I took home to my family’s table over €11000 last month, and yes, dreadful as it may seem, I actually had to fill a water bottle and take a jar of Nescafé to work in my flight bag. Oh dear! :{

Ms. Turret (Ozi) = Moritz Suter.

I have to say Ms Turret, you have crossed a very sensitive line by aligning pilot unions with terrorists. I think an apology is in order there mate, and fast. I also see (a while ago) we will never agree, however, I would, along with others, like to see answers to the questions posed.
If you read carefully, instead of looking for ways to turn my points into some kind of attack on successful companies, then you would note that I am not against companies such as Ryanair making money. But why not, if you are as successful as you say, start to look after your employees? Its a simple question. It's not about some old Das Capital or whatever you think you are quoting there. As for sticking my hand out, you have obviously not heard of SARS and the way the company and employees came together. Maybe look that up before you sling your crap as facts.
I will see you in a year, then we will compare T's and C's. I look forward to it and an apology for your appaling comment above.:mad:

Turret-Ozi. You are an appalling piece of work and it comes as no surprise that you work for a company peopled by an appalling, offensive, bullying and generally objectionable senior management team which is devoid of any moral substance. You complain about marxist ideologues without apparently having the faintest sense of how utterly ideological you are yourself - and all of your posts, regardless of the identity you use - always revert to the same extemist ideological message: "greed is good" and "money is the measure of all things". Like all ideologues, the world will catch up with you and reality will come to bear. You can then retire sure in the knowledge that the world has not been equal to your superiour skills. Nothing, not all the money in the world, can compensate you for being so utterly repugnant and objectionable, not that you will ever notice.

You will not, of course, withdraw the terrorist statement you made above. I justify my comments above on the utter unacceptability of your comment.

There I was thinking unions evolved for a reason...

:rolleyes:

As the big red caveat at the bottom of the page so clearly applies to the malodourous Ms Turret, has the time not come to ban this berk of questionable gender from these columns?

Hmm, being treated like people is a threat to the business model is it? How then do so many other successful airline and non-airline companies combine high staff satisfaction with vast financial success?
As a manager, Ozi, you clearly missed out of the valuable lesson that the happier the staff, the more productive they are.
I also submit that the real "knife held to the throat of airline businesses" is in fact vastly incompetent management. I could list numerous examples here of how management, not the pilots, got airlines into the financial trouble that killed/crippled them. But I can't really be bothered getting into a pi$$ing contest with someone who, if not my esteemed CEO in person, is someone acting as his mouthpiece. We all know who I'm talking about.
Did no-one tell you that your brand of IR went out, as unsustainable, with the Dickension era?

By the way, and lastly, €340,000 for the water for one year is 0.15% of the 2004 profit of €226m (as an accountant, you probably know that anyway). A case of penny sensible and pound foolish?


Joe le Taxi:
Ban Ozi, I think not? This is the kind of censorship that he would love within FR. No need to lower to that level. Anyway, his twitterings are amusing.

Dear Miss Turret,

A great piece of union bashing. I don’t work for your company, but I do share your work place in the European sky, so I will make a comment or two. Know of any companies that went T/U because of a Union? I know of none. I do however know lots that are now has -beens because of arrogant and greedy managers. What “hidden union agenda”? Your company was modeled after WN, or South West Airlines. You might want to take a better look, as they are one of the most successful airlines on the planet, and guess what they are the MOST UNIONIZED ONE, in the U.S. aviation market place. Funny huh? Their pilots are well paid, may be one of the best paid 737 drivers in America, and guess what they use a SENIORITY based system. The premise of treating your employees like people is what makes a winning team, you’ll find that out sooner or later. Good work REPA !!!!!! WE behind the old iron curtain are far away from all this, but it sounds all too familiar, we do stand in solidarity, at least some of us!!!!!!!

Bratko

In modern times I was of the opinion that the best way unions could enhance the lot of their members was to ensure the continuing and most profitable future of their employers. Employees do not want to spend a life changing horses unnecessarily, but would like a steady FAIR career. Unions in a public quoted company have no interest in their members committing financial suicide, and will not aid nor abet it.
Management should have the same goal, but as often seen, their aim is short-term self gain with little long-term responsibility to their charge of care. It should not be thus, but history bears it out.

Now Ms Turret, which of these 2 parties has the best interest of the airline at heart? The one who wishes to operate on the principle of:
1. a fair days works for a fair days age,
2. mutual respect
3. solid team working towards the same goal

or the one who operates on the principle of:
1. unilateral decision making including change of T's & C's
2. disrespect & indeed loathing of employees who are not simple minded 'yes' men
3. no care about morale, and encouragment of career minded employees. If you leave there are more where you came from.
4. demands/expects total loyalty & flexibility at whatever personal cost.

Why is it that neraly every airline management operates completely outside the CRM box which it insists its flight crew work within? Those that do the former are in the vast majority and use management techniques that are medieval and were disgraced decades ago. Somewhere there is a special airline management college, hidden so deep, that it has remained untouched by the modern industrial world.

Unions were formed to provide a balance/opposition to such mamagement methods. The lack of discussion and mutual respect caused the destructive "them & us' attitude of a few decades ago. Mistrust etc.
I know of 1 airline where this was the case and it was losing money. Unhappy workforce, which was unionised, was uncooperative and unproductive. In came a caring but strict business minded management. they formed a team with the employees & union and established that they were all a team focused on the same goal. T's & C's improved and they turned round into a profit. Shock horror.
Sadly with the new breed of macho managers associated with LCC's. especially, as long as they make a profit there is no reason to change. The bottom line will make the rules. Damn shame.

good on ya,mick turret(oxi).

Ozi, waiting for the paint to dry before you try to get out of that corner your in?:rolleyes:

Waiting on that apology mate.............

Nosey

nosey,don't you know that ryanair never apologises.

in aligning pilots with terrorists,we may have in ms.turret one and the same persons who delivered the recent ryanair memo advocating joining the taliban.

i think ryanair are the leaders in financial terrorism.screwing everybody for the last buck.