NEW BA PILOT SCALE
 

hi guys,

I am sure everyone is aware of the new pilot scale for new british airways pilots. What are people's opinions on this and could somebody kindly tell me how the new pay scale works(and compare it with the old one). From what i have heard the new scale is not fair on new joiners.

regards

They will pay you as little as they possibly can just like any other airline will do these days.

They all seem to be trying to walk the fine line between the FO being insolvant and being able to eat and getting blood out of a stone.

Only when you become useful and liable to walk will the pay get better.

Do you mean FPP program or the 34 point pay scale. The FPP scheme is about the best deal going in the UK at the moment. No airline in the UK offers free, no strings attached sponsorship. If you consider that unfair then don't join.

If you are referring to the PP34 scale, the change is that you start in the same salary as before but the annual increments are reduced so it now takes 34 years to reach the top pay point rather than 24. If you consider it unfair then don't join.

BA could offer a lower deal than Ryanair and people would still be queuing around the block.

Due to its legacy T&Cs and seniority system, BA has virtually no turnover of staff other than pension/medical etc related. This is ultimately expensive, albeit there is still is a recognition of the importance of experience within BA.

The change in payscales in starting to address this, as the average cost of an EZY A320 pilot (esp. flexi) is far lower than a BA A320, and ultimately this can't continue.

Within BA, its Flight Ops department has always had a strong voice but the cost base is coming under increasing focus as it becomes increasingly hard to justify why the cost base is so different.

@ Mad_jock

I'm not sure if you could be more out of touch in regards to your comments. Struggling to eat? Insolvent? What world do you live in?

34 years is a long, long time to wait to get to decent money..!

Obviously 21 year olds who have never moved out of home...........!!!!!!!

In 34 years time, what's the UK tax threshold going to be for high earners..?

50% - 60% - 70%

What's the point flogging yourself for that..? BA will most likely be up to 900/1000 hrs/year for all pilots within 5 years from now.

You'd be better off at EZY - part time contract - European base. Like all the ex-BA captains at EZY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quite right! The pay after 33 years is rubbish.........

One of the delights of reading this forum is enjoying the absolute bollox that some write.

cptdivz, I'm not sure your question has really been answered so far; I will try to do so.

BA define starting and finishing salaries for cadets, first officers and captains. Obviously they are higher for captains than FOs, and higher for FOs than cadets. They are also slightly higher for 'medium' and long haul than for short haul.

A new pilot starts on the bottom of the appropriate scale, and moves up one step every year.

If you get promoted from cadet to FO (in year five I believe) or from FO to captain you simply move across onto the appropriate scale from that point.

In the past, it took 24 years to reach the top of the scale where you remained until you retired (known as 24pp).

The recent changes mean new joiners will instead take 34 years to reach the top of the salary scale (34pp) - but once they do get there they will receive the same amount.

Confusingly, the pension scheme for new joiners has not changed and pension contributions from both employee and employer will still be based on the old 24 year scale.

The entire salary scale structure increases each year to reflect inflation.

In addition to the salary and pension, there are flying allowances worth something like £9000 per year which are only taxed at 20%.

It's inappropriate to give any specific figures here, but I understand that the pay scales are available from the BALPA website if you are a member. Personally I think the salaries are pretty decent and would probably compare favourably to any other European airline.

Cadets on the FPP scheme pay in instalments for their frozen ATPL training, at the usual package rate, to their chosen flight school. They are able to borrow the money through a BA-backed loan scheme if necessary.

Type rating IS included in the package though I am not certain whether it is the flight school or BA that are providing it.

The cadet is also responsible for test fees and most general living costs throughout training although basic accommodation and some food is included.

Once qualified and gainfully employed, they start on the cadet pay scale. In addition to salary and allowances they will receive a further tax-free 'repayment' equal to 1/7 of the training package cost per year for the first seven years.

If you add it all together, you can see that in fact the FPP cadets will be taking home pretty much the same money as the direct entry pilots albeit in a more tax efficient manner.

Clearly, most cadets will need the repayments to repay the money they borrowed in the first place. Thus they are in a very similar position to a self-sponsored direct entry pilot but with two major advantages - a free type rating and a job awaiting them at the end of their training.

So is the 34pp scale fair? I don't really see how any particular package can be considered 'unfair' to staff who have not yet joined the company. No one already working at BA has lost out and it's really up to you to decide if you accept the terms offered or not if you wish to join.

It is rather inelegant though. There will be a significant discrepancy between pilots joining before and after the cut-off date, which will get worse with time. After 24 years, some pilots with very slightly less seniority than their colleagues will be paid only 70% as much (basic salary - the pension and allowances will be the same) and won't catch up for another 10 years.

But will either the 24pp or 34pp scales will still be with us in this form in twenty years time? I suspect not - there will be plenty more tinkering and changes before the situation above actually occurs.

I hope that is all clear and accurate.

Yeah, its terrible. PP1 is about 60-65k depending on how much you fly and where to.
Thats puts you in the top 5% of all uk earners. If you joined in your 20's / early 30's as a lot of people do then that would put you close to, or in the top 1% of people in that age group.
PP34 is in 6 figures and in the top 1% of all uk income and would still be achieved by retirement for anyone who joined before 30. Most jobs / careers these days don't have a pay scale, none have a guarnateed payscale up to the 99th percentile of uk income.

If you don't think any of that is "decent" money then either you are a banker, or living in some bizare alternate reality.

If you want 'decent' money, don't get into aviation.

If you want to work your :mad: off, join a LCC.

The buzz word in BA appears to be 'lifestyle' - for now. Im ridding it out in the hold pool, trying to keep positive. If I join BA, it certainly won't be on the basis of raking it in hand over fist.

Just to add some perspective here. All this chat about the pay point system is boring. I have just completed year 1 in BA and let me tell you it is a world away from previous companies.
Lifestyle has been mentioned on here over and over but it really is the key. I spent 7 years flying the charter side of this job before BA and here is my view on life: I bid for a roster of work which means I can choose on a monthly basis whether time off or money is more important for that month; I have more annual leave than ever before with the associated staff travel; I have a great route network (not the best in BA) but I like it; a stable roster which has not changed, once published, in a year; transport and hotels are always booked and waiting; an aspirational bid every year should I wish to change fleet/lifestyle; an average of between 12-15 days off/month and that is with a first year total of 650 hours. These are just some!
All I can say is the pay is good and the benefits are great. There are a lot of people getting angry and vocal about all of the negatives but a lot of us have experienced the other side and it is MUCH better.

An example of how it is to work for BA
 

Some years ago, I was down route in Perth, (W.Aussie) when my son was knocked off his bike in Italy, taken to hospital and still "out for the count" after 6 hours. BA called me, offered to position me home (which would have involved positioning another skipper to Perth (no easy task), and to fly my wife and a BA company doctor to Venice to make sure of the best treatment for my son.

That is what it is like to work for BA, when the "chips hit the fan", they are there for you.

Truth is, despite what you may want to hear, BA is a good employer. I am not a new joiner, I have been in for some years but not yet at PP24. Even though I have not reached that level I am still paid a sh1tload of money doing a job I enjoy with professional and personable colleagues.

The tax I pay is not really much to do with my employer, but where I CHOOSE to live. If all I was interested in grabbing as much cash as I could I may go and work in the Gulf for the benevolent operators there, or I could just live in a country with low taxes.

I CHOOSE not to be a tax dodger (avoider), I CHOOSE to stay with my present employer and I CHOOSE my work which, when allocated, ends up being the work I actually do because I have immense roster stability.

So, did you "not get in?"

wot they said

Heres an external perspective.

Someone said to my wife at the school gate recently and when they found out what I did they said "Oh it must be hard with him being away all the time.".
My wifes response now I'm with BA, "he's never at bloody work, he's always on leave, or got a days off and when he is at work he sits around in the sun by a pool "

A glib response I know, but that's pretty much sums up my first year with BA. I've never been left downroute because of crewing / ops cockups, i've never got somewhere to find no transport and no hotels, I've never had a roster change (apart from swaps that I sorted out myself with a colleague) and I get paid !!!! loads more than I used to.

I:ve spoken to a BA 777 f/o driver at the school gates and he gets 3/4 days away but with time diff gets no more rest than us. no mention of swimming pools either.

Maybe, then again he's guaranteed 2 days off between trips and in my 20 plus the years in BA my roster changes have been almost non existant.

FWIW downroute hassle (HOTAC and transport) has been almost nil, and when the "fit has hit the shan" :ok: the company have been very good at faciliatating getting me home and/or granting me time off, no questions asked.

Good point 73addict. Too many people on here always looking at the negatives of BA that need to understand life outside of BA doesn't always share all of the good T's & C's that they take for granted.

It was a glib comment, but underlines my wifes perception of what I do now do compared with what i had to put up with in my 5 years at a previous airline and 13 years in a 'proper' career.

I get 13-14 days off per month. Time zones makes no diference to that, a day off is a day off. I get guaranteed 2 days (3 nights) off after every long haul trip - no more home for 12 hours and then slogging off somewhere else half asleep. In reality I get alot more time off than that. my last 3 day trip reported at 9pm and cleared at 11am. They don't count as days off but in reality theres almost 1 1/2 whole days at home in those 3 days of work. I can plan that too, as a trip rostered at 9pm WILL start at 9pm, I won't get a duty change the day before moving me to a 6 day trip starting at 6am (which happened frequently in my previous life). I get more leave than i know what to do with, so much so that I've picked up an overtime trip in my duty free week next month as I really don't want antother week off!

I cannot see a problem with the BA salary. as stated i'm more than happy with a starting salary thats in the 95th percentile of ALL earners in the UK, and with a payscale (wether its 25 or 35) that takes it well in to 6 figures, and a union that has a good history of getting cost of living rises every year.

But even if you do have a problem with the salary - its about lifestyle, and that is far more important to me, and most other people too.

I think the plain truth is that a lot of those who've tried to get in to BA and for whatever reason haven't, be it not getting through selection, the disbanding of the hold pool or, even, dare I say it being offered a job then turning it down, are often trying to kid themselves that BA is not such a good gig anymore...well it may not be as good as it was but if you want to live and work in your home country its still the best one in town, in every way except time to command..and if thats all you want...go to Easy or Ryan

Bengerman - I'm really pleased for you that you earn sh!tloads of money. You know the trouble with you guys? You all sound so cringingly smug.

Quote from Bengerman - "One of the delights of reading this forum is enjoying the absolute bollox that some write." - Quite, thank you for your own contributions.

MrBenib
 

40+ years ago a pilot Capt. was the ability to buy a new Cadillac every month with his Salary. Now you cannot buy anything with the sh--t salary that you get, toughen up get the pay scale up, or you'r thrash hauler will make more , than you!!!! It is terrible how you view you'r position.:ugh:

Thanks for the semi-literate replies!

Benip - get a grip! Disregard the 'smugness' and work on the info which I'm sure you can get from people in BA, or people who know people in BA. The truth is readily available and its not necessarily the mannah from heaven that the new joiners, the senior, or the retirees will tell you. But spare us all your persistent whinging.

We complain about other peoples salary. BA is a bench mark whether we like it or not.

We have to stop the tide as best we can as we race to the bottom. TUI are trying to force flat salary scales for new joiners (good on the members for standing up to it), BA now have a B scale and not unlike Cathay will no doubt have a C scale in the future. We are all on the slippery slope!

Hand, Your smugness in particular is difficult to disregard when it is ingrained in your every post. The main thing I'm whinging about is the pension (FFS wouldn't you) and of course your attitude.

Your points can be made without the constant playground mentality of 'I told you so!' appended to your every post. Believe me I heard you the first couple of times so can we bury this one?

Mr Benip
If you weren't so cringingly bitter in all of your posts maybe you wouldnt get such scathing replies.
Maybe a few more post with substance rather than bitter and twisted BA BA BA comments would raise peoples opinion of you,
Just a thought, and not in any way making light of any comments regarding pensions that are obviously justified

It seems to be a peculiarly British thing to 'pull down' those who have achieved success.

Why do some insist on devoting energy to criticism of those who have jobs with the best paying employer?

Why not recognise that some employers pay more than others and as gatbusdriver says, provide a benchmark.

BA now have an A- scale.

gatbusdriver:
No they do not.

Six years ago, BA had a compulsory retirement age of 55. (Unlike most British airlines??) So a cadet joining at 20 would enjoy 11 years on pp24 before retirement.

Those yet to join will have a compulsory retirement age of 65 meaning a cadet joining at age 20 will ALSO now enjoy 11 years on (what was) pp24 before retirement, and due to their longer career , their overall earnings will of course be greater!

Anyone joining before age 31 will reach the top paypoint before retirement, just as they always did.

The only anomoly are those fortunate enough to have been in the right place, at the right time to enjoy the old pay scale, but the new legislation! I can assure you BA regard them as a big problem to the payroll, spending upto twenty years on the top paypoint!! (150-180k!)

QED: No 'B' payscale at BA! Sorry. :rolleyes:

Nail hit on head.

Craggenmore
 

How many BA captains have left for EZY since the compulsory retirement went up from 55 to 65 in Oct 2006?

Studi you are like a broken record. It is always the same few usernames who appear on BA threads having a moan - you are one of them.

You have demonstrated clearly on many occasions you do not understand the alternative to pp34 that we had to vote over. There was never an option to "sell out" future colleagues, only decide which option offered the best form of damage limitation to the career paths of ourselves and those who wish to join in the decades to come. Legacy airlines are changing, whether we like it or not. What you haven't realised (yet) is "just saying no" is not a long term option for legacy pilots of the modern day. I would point you in the direction of Qantas, Iberia and the recent collective bargaining changes that are likely to be the pre-cursor to major changes at Air France.

It isn't 1970 anymore, Brit -bash as much as you like if it makes you feel better but the music stopped a long time ago. Prolonging the T&Cs our predecessors established (in a state-owned era when profit and share price were secondary/non-existent issues) is the name of the game now.

I would suggest we have a clear grasp on reality and the pp34 vote demonstrated a clear understanding of the long-term prospects for our careers. No one liked doing it. I would also suggest that sticking our heads in the sand and telling our reps to shout "NO" loudly at ruthless members of the IAG hierarchy would be demonstrating the polar opposite of a long term strategy.

When I joined BA approaching 20 years ago NRA was 55. I took the gamble that it would change and was correct. I challenge anyone who has left BA at 55 to EZY et al to say they would have made that move to another operator had NRA in BA been 60/65. Much bitterness is unfortunately being displayed on this thread which is sad given the Professsional nature of the site.I would suggest also that all the BA DEPs/FPPs have aspirations to fly Long Haul when the chance occurs....they may hate it ...but the attraction of BA remains the variety of fleets/lifestyles despite the recently increased 5 year freeze period and the ability to return to SH.

Guys why are we having these arguments? Let those that want to take a pop at BA carry on, everyone at BA just enjoy the lifestyle, pay, benefits, route/fleet structure, 6 weeks of leave a year, outstanding support in the event of family illness or problems, union representation..............enough said!

studi
You clearly have (want?) little/no understanding of the issues here. Nor the way legacy airlines are currently evolving. Anybody who thinks just saying 'no' will protect T&Cs doesn't have to look too far these days to see where that type of 1970s industrial relations ends up!!!!!

It's no coincidence that BA pilots still enjoy some of the best T&Cs in the industry DESPITE the fact they would be swamped with applications EVEN IF their T&Cs were amongst the worst! :ok:

I have no inclination to explain any further to the likes of you.

Mr Benip, who rattled your cage?

I'm not smug, I'm pretty content and I'm smug about that, but I'm not smug! ;)

However, I'll deal with the posting that offended you so much and caused you so much angst..

The inference here is that until one has done 34 years service then the money is crap, not so. The money is pretty good from the start and gets better with every passing year. Also, at no time did Craggenmore (the original author of the above quote) define "decent money".

Smug enough?

Well, if this isn't bollox then I don't know what is. Is the author a clairvoyant tax specialist? In 34 years time will we all be flying to Mars on Branson's Space Atlantic, perhaps the earth will have changed into brown goo and we won't have the contamination figures to deal with it!! Perhaps tax in the UK will be a flat rate of 30 per cent.

I don't care much. I'll be smugly retired!

Well, if that's the case as put by our clairvoyant scheduling legislation, industrial representative, tax specialist then all other airlines will probably be doing the same, or more! I won't care because I'll be smugly retired!

Part time sounds good, the rest is, yes, bollox. Question for Craggenmore..

How many pilots have left BA for EZY since the retirement age was raised?

Any questions Mr Benip?

Yours well smugly

No Questions, Just put it to bed man.

Studi - has anyone ever actually asked you to take a large pay cut in order to preserve a pay scale for people have yet to join your company? If so then please share the details with us. If not, then please spare us your hypocritical whining. I'll bet you a Euro you've never been exposed to the real, hard world of decision making, which is why you feel comfortable lecturing the rest of us on a decision you've never had to make whilst pursuing unrealistic ideals.

What's :mad: about being a pilot for easyJet on a mainland European contract then benderman? Excuse me while I'm not jealous of you flying an :mad: noisy 747, at night, listening to static on HF and having to spend all your night stops with a load of 50 year old unionists that seem to think they were conscribed to be cabin crew. Never a more miserable bunch than BA cabin crew. Must be a pleasure.

EasyJet is a great company - it offers a nice balance and plenty of opportunity to actually fly.

Given BA/IAGs current tack are you genuinely not concerned by the amount of time you have given/could give in an unmeritocratic organisation and how they could tear it all away from you? That's not to say you as pilots aren't performing but the seniority system means the best/ hardest working/ most motivated can be held back by some lazy b'stards right of passage.

All this said, I genuinely hope BA maintain excellent Ts and Cs and continue to recruit - not because I necessarily want to go there but because they create the labour turnover that sways the recruitment supply and demand balance.

And so PTF will enter BA. As long as you're alright Jack.

Blackandbrown

i'm glad your so happy at easyjet, but I don't understand why you are so angry about other people flying for BA? In fact, why are you even looking at a thread about the new BA pay scale if Easy suits you so well.

No you did not walk the walk. What you voted for is very, very different from what you are lecturing BA pilots to accept. So you voted for changes to overtime? Big deal! We did that years ago, with our overtime rate rate reduced to 1.25 from 1.5, applicable to every current or future BA pilot. No, what you are asking for is for every BA pilot to transition to a 34 point payscale at the next increment. That neatly overlooks the fact that it doesn't solve BAs problem, which is too many pilots at PP24 now and in the next five years. It also ignores the fact that every pilot who is currently on the fattest of paypoints loses nothing, to be funded instead by those who are on lower payscales which they signed up to in good faith. You see, or more accurately what you don't see, is that nobody is going to vote themselves a major pay cut. Not ever, in any airline. And certainly not to fund people who have yet to join a company which is still offering good salaries and is not unreasonably trying to adapt to changes in employment legislation in a reasonably fair manner. For all your pious lecturing, you still don't seem to have grasped the significance of what it is you are actually asking BA pilots to do, nor do you recognise that you have done nothing similar yourself.

Yes you will, because it's lazy and the actual facts of the case don't suit your personal narrative. You clearly prefer to deal in soundbites rather than practical solutions.

When you come up with a practical, feasible, realistic scenario rather than some idealistic nonsense I'll be the first one listening. What is slightly bizarre is your own self-belief that you have found the solutions to so many intractable problems in the UK industry, which have vexed the minds of many people far smarter than you with better knowledge of the situations, and you did this all on your own in a different country!

We already do.