That's an 82.8% Yes vote on a 73.5% return so a working majority.

82.8% doesn't seem very divided.

61% of the workforce voted yes I make it. Hardly overwhelming but a democratic mandate none-the-less.

Walsh will be back soon.

He won`t need to be with the pilot workforce falling over themselves to give away their hard earned terms and conditions in return for a few meaningless platitudes

The Turkeys have spoken, "long live Christmas"

If you don't vote, you've voted in favour of the majority vote. If they were divided, they'd have made sure they voted.

I would imagine a large percentage of those that didn't vote were the very senior pilots for whom the outcome would have practically no effect one way or the other.

I guess they decided to allow those more junior to decide the future.

Fair enough really.

Well I voted and I'm top of list :ok:

Ahhh...nice to know you still care. :p

This has been done to death. The work force is already divided (APS/NAPS/BARP)

It's sad, it's unfortunate, and nobody but nobody is happy about it, but there really was no other way.

We may yet see BAex, but at least it wont be today.

Kicking the can down the road and all that...

Not really, the same pay scales but a bit of 'compulsory retirement extension' drag.

Have a look at Cathay/Emirates etc. if you want 'much worse pay'.

Tall Boy, I am rubbish at maths (a jolly good reason to celebrate that Dingbaticus never yearned to be an airline Pilot) but I made it 62% voted ‘YES’ too.

As I said back on page 10 of this thread, I was not feeling the love for the ‘YES’ vote but I am delighted, ahead of official confirmation, to be one of the first to say ‘congratulations and welcome to the family’ to our new colleagues from BMI.

Not only did I not feel the love for the ‘YES’ vote, I did not feel the love for Dingbaticus on this thread. I resisted the bait, as the ‘growly bears’ grumbling for a rumbling on pprune bear no resemblance to the professionalism of my Flight Crew colleagues in the work place.

I don’t know if it is due to the reality that, like most strikers, I am actually a passionate professional rather than the militant monster portrayed during our dispute or that, whilst being rubbish at maths, the one figure I never struggled with is my own but the animosity I appear to attract on pprune has thankfully never translated into my real world.

Stormin Normin, Mr Walsh never left nor did his long term plans. Capitalism is like a giant ponzi scheme and as the emerging middle classes of developing countries drive up their living standards and wage demands, so the pool of cheap labour that supplied the demands of Europe and the USA diminishes.

We need to recognise that, whether Airline Pilot or Cabin Crew, we are all viewed as unit costs and we are all under pressure to deliver more for less. Rather than being distracted by pointless battles between our communities, we need to evolve and find the balance between supporting the business and protecting our futures.

It might shock your middle class sensibilities to think of BALPA as a Union but now is not a time for a fit of the vapours. BALPA represent Pilots across the UK and you are as susceptible as the rest of the UK to the spin encouraging us to cheer each other in a race to the bottom. Before you protest too loudly, did you ever think a banker would hand back their bonus?

Those amongst the Flight Crew community who delight in casting scorn on any suggestion that Cabin Crew have anything in common with Pilots forget our motto ‘To Fly, To Serve’. At the heart of our business is the customer and post Cabin Crew dispute, the Leadership Team have recognised the need for us to collectively focus our energies on the most precious cargo we carry, our passengers.

Rather than focus on the negatives of the Cabin Crew dispute, I prefer to move forward and use it as a learning experience. It is not only our customers who are going on a journey and I am sure our BMI colleagues will be as delighted as I am that our Pilots extended them a boarding card to their future, as part of our airline family.

The postings made by Dingbaticus are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions.

The champagne corks will be popping in Madrid tonight! Willie has called the BA pilots bluff and they have rolled over. It is nothing short of a capitulation. The only winners are the senior pilots who will continue to keep their snouts in the trough. The two ringers and recent DEP's have been shafted.

There is nothing now to stop BA Express coming along when BA's "Fred the Shred" decides to make further cuts. This is a gross miscalculation by BA's pilots to put their trust in Willie. He will cut and cut again.

The final humiliation is that the pilots are going to part fund the BMI takeover themselves, through productivity and giving up after a six year legal battle, money owed by BA over their average holiday pay claim.

Game set and match to Willie.

What does this integration really mean in terms of the contracts of bmi pilots and cabin crew, do they get to sign new ba contracts or do they remain on their old bmi ones? :confused:

BMI cabin crew are not going to join the Legacy crew, that is for sure. There has been very little information about what will happen to the BMI cabin crew, but I feel there is a surprise coming.

Two things may happen; either they will end up on Mixed Fleet, or they will be the nucleus for BA Express. Mixed Fleet is being pulled off of the PHX route now after losing ATL. The future for this fleet due to 900 hour rule, is shorthaul and short longhaul.

I would not be at all surprised if a new longhaul low cost subsidiary is formed at LGW due to the base losing money using Mainline pilots. As it is Willie's aim to have a premium world airline with a low cost base, you can see a BA version of JetStar coming.

Not sure about the cabin crew as I've heard various rumours and wouldn't wish to speculate. Having said that, TUPE must apply initially.

The pilots will remain on their BMI contracts initially in accordance with TUPE whilst consultations are carried out with the BMI BALPA reps as to how the integration will go ahead from the pilot's point of view. Ultimately I would expect to see the BMI pilots joining on BA contracts with such things as pay protection where necessary and grandfather rights Airbus commands, for example.

If the vote had gone the other way, then those in IAG (and there were several big hitters) arguing for a "BA Jetstar" rather than the integration route, would definitely have had their way. BA Jetstar would be a certainty and not something that the Count, with his cracked crystal ball, could "see coming".

There is much talk of a divided pilot work-force within IAG, how much less fractured will that pilot work-force be now that ALL BA pilots (BA and Ex-BMI) will be represented by a single CC and cannot be played one against the other?

The Count is still trying to enjoy a Scadenfreude moment, sadly for him and his seriously flawed thinking, this moment has been seriously delayed by the vote.

Quite right Juan,

As for the senior pilots, they have in fact gained very little by this as their career progression would not have been hampered by a "no" vote, as against the enhanced career prospects that integration and growth will bring to all FOs.

The Count will have to wait a lot longer because of this result for his Scadenfreude moment.

As for us being next, we were always next and always will be, as will every other group of employees everywhere. I hope we can move forward with this union in a fair and productive manner for all, yes even for the Count and his ilk.

Welcome aboard chaps.

Unfortunately I don't think any employee group is going to be immune to having to defend their position within legacy carriers over the coming couple of years.

Look at the position AF/KLM is in at the moment with €6.5 billion debts and their announcement that time has been called on ALL contracts with a requirement to re-negotiate ALL contracts over the next 18 months.

Failure to do so will result in nullification of those contracts and loss of employment. Pensions are under the hammer as well and, in a co-ordinated move with the French Government an attack on the French 35 hour working week will be instigated.

Personally I would rather be in a position to be able to flex my terms with my employer than the constant head butting of other groups. The inability of other Unions to move with the times means that those joining from BMI in the Cabin don't have much of a say as to where they end up. Perhaps better than being represented by an over egotistical tomato grower though.

Why does the 'Count' insist on attacking the VCC's all the time, if he got his way then half of Unite would be thrown out for working as VCC. Never let the truth etc.

Juan - I do believe this may have happened (changes in contracts) had it not been for the fact that the cabin crew community at BA was so large.

Really? Apparently, a return to PHX for WW over MF has been "rumoured" since about September. But how much would this cost? It's a five day trip for WW - but a three day trip for MF. And the allowances for WW are much greater. ATL is a different kettle of fish - it's a 48 hour trip on both fleets - but the much prized terms and conditions for WW make it much harder to move PHX back to WW on a permanent basis - crew costs would more than double.

There are also rumours of KL moving to MF - and guess what? The box payments (?) which netted crew members £1000 for a trip wouldn't be there - it would be a 48 hour trip (£120) with onward flight to SYD codeshared to Qantas. There will be expansion eastwards in the next few years - and since new contracts will be MF, the crew costs will be low.

At the moment, large sections of MF are in furlough, due to 900 hours - and it costs BA about £1000 per month per crew member. The fact that most of the crew can't live on that salary is a matter of supreme indifference both to the company and to the union - who don't realise that part of the reason that MF aren't joining in droves is because they literally HAVE NO MONEY. The terms and conditions for WW I guess mean that they are unlikely to reach 900 hours. But any routes that the company can realistically change from long WW trips to short MF trips, without starting a strike, they will do so. Small tokens are being tossed to MF - day off after overnight back from Africa etc - but it's still going to be incredibly easy to get 900 hours flying out of them for around £16000.

There are plenty of people who are prepared to work - but it's in spite, rather than because of Ts and Cs - and a fair number in ignorance. A noticeable number leave after a few months to go back to previous jobs. There are few airlines, charter, loco or other, that would expect you to survive on £900 per month - especially based in London - because they have rostered all of your hours in 10 months. MF Ts and Cs are below market rate - "because they can". If bmi cabin crew are offered a choice between their existing Ts and Cs and becoming part of BA with MF Ts and Cs, I would think pretty carefully about what you want from their job ....

'There are a lot of willing candidates who are prepared to work on those Ts and Cs interviewing in droves at The Rivers: just remember how naff the charter / lo-co Ts and Cs are and even MF looks good.'
However 'naff' the charter and low cost t&c's are what people count on these days is how much they will take home at the end of the month....both low cost and charter are taking home MUCH more than MF.

tomkins,

I agree with you.

Fatehunter,

Charter crews are well paid and have considerably more time off than the rest. I know a few "junior" crew with a charter airline and some MF cabin crew too. The charter lot take home about £200 per month (minimum) more.

Just heard that BMI baby has been sold off.

Sorry if irrelevant or under the wrong topic.

Midland cabin crew current T&C are good, and pays fairly well. We are under no illusion that MF terms are better. Many of us would be unable to live on the current MF pay!!

Midland cabin crew current T&C are good, and pays fairly well. We are under no illusion that MF terms are better. Many of us would be unable to live on the current MF pay
'say again ,over'

Can we stick to the topic - as per the Header please? :ok:

HWB

Count,

Please read the post before yours...the one about sticking to the topic.

Thanks sweetie.

Point of order if I may: What is commonly known as 'Scope' applies ONLY to BA owned and operated aircraft (of 100 seats or more) flying to/from LHR/LGW. It most definitely does NOT apply to the 'brand' - see BA Cityflyer or Open Skies. Nor, crucially does it apply to 'slots'!!!

Much yet to play out here I fear!!!

PS: As we all know, IAG have chosen to totally ignore Iberia's more binding Scope clause regardless! I see no reason why they would behave differently in London, should they decide it was in their interests so to do!

Scope is dead. Safety in numbers is the only game here.

As for sticking to the point, the one that the Count is making is that he clearly has a hard on for BA pilots and BALPA. Nothing that he posts on here has content that evades his bilious excretions where BALPA is concerned.

Perhaps a recent legal judgement that allows an independent expert access to BASSA forum archives, the result of which may, or may not, prove embarassing, has generated another acid attack in the stomach of the count.

Either way BA pilots have voted in such a way as to encourage BMI pilots to have a more optimistic view of the future, bearing in mind that nothing is set in stone.


The statement, "Unlike BALPA, there is no conflict of interest within BASSA's membership." is clearly rubbish proved by the huge numbers of BASSA cabin crew who worked through the recent dispute, in addition, BASSA leadership regularly trumpeted the "more than 10,000 cabin crew in BASSA mantra" which, on the count's own admission seems to have dwindled to a mere
"7000 of which stuck together ".

Get the flea out of your backside, count, and try to do something positive!

So where will the BMI pilots be placed on the BA seniority list?

In seniority order I would guess? :p

Still to be agreed/decided. There's a 90 day consultation starting between BALPA and the BMI crew with the overriding TUPE regulations to be complied with.

As there are 3300 BA and around 300 BMI whatever is decided is unlikely to have a huge impact on things - although many will huff and puff regardless of which solution is proposed.

"There's a 90 day consultation starting between BALPA and the BMI crew"

No there isn't, that is a complete fabrication.

Yes there is, that's the law.

The law does not say that BALPA have to consult bmi crew, nor does it stipulate 90 days for TUPE consultations, nor are any such consultations starting now.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

90 days as per the law. I doubt IAG would circumvent the law?

Seriously, don't comment if you don't know what you are talking about.

There is no requirement for 90 days consultation under TUPE. Consultation yes, 90 days, no!

The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006

I'm curious to know what BA pilots think thay have actually voted for. I mean, they are mostly saying that bmi will be "integrated" but what do they think that actually means?

'I doubt IAG would circumvent the law?'

Probally not but whats happening at KLM/AF has probally got Walsh thinking a little.

KLM was never a good tie up with AF.I just hope he keeps IB well away from BA.