Yes, that is the way it is. IAG want BMI integrated into BA. BA want BMI integrated, but due to SCOPE, BA pilots have to agree.

That is exactly the dilemma we face at the moment. If we vote Yes, then BMI is integrated in BA short haul, with all the problems that will entail. We (BA pilots) have been told we have to help finance it by reducing our T&C's.
Alternatively, we vote No and IAG buy BMI and set up BA Express with reduced T&C's and use it as a wedge to reduce BA's salary bill at LHR.

So what will happen with bmi then?
 

:rolleyes: Hi am all new to P Prune so forgive me if am asking the wrong question or the wrong question at this moment in time?

BUT having an avid interest in all the pilots forums re TUPE, BALPA, etc, etc, what about the laymen within bmi who currently operate at EMA? Some from the Engineering site and more from their HQ in Donington Hall? And not being a Pilot, our interest is of a different nature. So what will the Walsher do? Will he sell the Hall and turn it into the BA Spa complete with heli pad or will he keep it on as some other regional BA HQ? What about the loss making bmibaby and regional?

No one knows or no one is bothered . . . . it is not all about pilots and crew you know. We have voices too. However, I think the majority are resigned to the fact that LHR will rule and if you want to go to LHR, you go assuming there is a position there for you and if not, it is bye byeeeeee! Thank you for your time ladies and gents and be interested in any posts to a novice on p prune.

:p

I love this. No proof and this is not how we at bmi understand it and by we I'm not just talking about pilots, I'm talking about the top level management, who really and truly have no idea of what plans IAG have for the company.

So the fact you lot are saying it's a certainty is making me remember how much utter rubbish is spouted as fact on this site.

Show exactly where you are getting your info from and then I might take it seriously, until then, it's just assumption and conjecture with no fact to back it up.

Extract from our Chief Pilot

"The nub of the choice you face is a decision about maintaining control of your future. In the
coming weeks you will be given the opportunity to vote collectively on these proposals.
They represent hard changes to your agreements and you will be voting to accept the
package as a whole. If you believe these changes represent a fair and proportionate
response to making our business competitive, secure in the knowledge that we will have
significantly more capacity to grow our business, you should vote yes. If you do not accept
the case for change and choose to vote no, the shorthaul competitive challenge will remain
and both IAG and British Airways have made clear that under such circumstances, the
conditions would not be met for IAG to approve the merger of the bmi business into British
Airways. While this scenario would avoid accepting the change proposals, it would come at
a significant cost in terms of denying British Airways pilots the confidence of owning their
own growth within a career structure they recognize and benefit from"

Extract from BALPA

Will a YES vote guarantee integration of BMI into BA Mainline?

Should IAG go ahead with the purchase, after regulatory approval, we have a very clear
undertaking from BA CEO Keith Williams that a vote in favour of this package will ensure
integration into. BA Pilots are the only specific work group being consulted on the changes. All other directorates in BA have accepted that they will either meet the cost targets IAG has
approved as part of a proposed integration, or they will lose out on the new BMI work. The
company has indicated to us that all ground handling and engineering functions could be
carried out by third party contract as necessary. BMI cabin crew may or may not be integrated
into Mixed Fleet, but at any rate unit costs will not be permitted to rise above BMI levels.

Say again slowly..... With respect, I would suggest that you get onto your Balpa company council and management and start demanding some answers. Your future is going to be decided one way or another by a Yes or No vote by the BA pilots in 2 weeks.
At the moment it would seem to be a forgone conclusion that you will be part of BA. (my opinion only)
If I were you, I'd want to know exactly what that is going to mean for me and my future career in BMI/BA.

I think I can fairly safely say that I probably know more about what's going on than our BALPA CC do...

Unfortunately!

Eventually, I do believe that we'll end up as part of BA. However, at this moment in time that is not certain and there's a lot of rumour and conjecture flying about on here that doesn't tally with what I know to be fact at this point in time.

I cannot go into any more detail than that. I could, but I won't as I'm not authorised to do so.

Say Again S l o w l y,

Is there anything that you can say that would be pertinent to the BA pilots' vote?

Until the results of that vote are known, nothing else can be predicted with any certainty. That said Shaka Zulu's copies of quotes from both BA and the BACC are accurate. Does anything you know contradict them?

There has also been a lot of speculation about how the integration, should it come about, be dealt with. It seems sometimes that the assumption is that it will be a scrap between the BACC and the BMICC. I mention this because sometimes it seems that it has been forgotten that ultimately BA/IAG are in charge. Maybe it's just me.

On that subject, in the Flt Ops directors letter he points out that, integrate or not, there will still be pressure on Short Haul costs. I suspect BA would be looking for concessions from SH, even if BMI pilots were not integrated.

Touching on that, there would appear to be an amount of disgruntlement on the BA recruitment thread about the introduction of the 34 pay points. I can completely understand people being upset by that, but the whole subject of "incremental drift" is one that BA pilots will have heard for some time as nearly every manager mentions that something has to be done about it at any given opportunity. I suspect that they have been biding their time and fell over themselves to attach it to this vote. After the Openskies affair it was only too obvious that BA pilots were keen to keep as many people flying BA aeroplanes on the same seniority list as possible. Even if the vote is "no" to integration, PP34 will not go away.

To the BMI chaps, if it were me, I would also expect to be wearing a BA uniform sooner rather than later, but speculating on where you might be in the grand order of things may be a little premature. Lets wait and see where we are in a couple of weeks time. You guys seem to have been messed around, had hopes built up, sacrificed things only to be disappointed time and again. I hope that this will be better, but I think we should await the outcome of the vote first and then let our CCs get together. It's been said already, but the BACC are a very decent bunch of chaps.

pretty much comes under the:

As no-one knows what is going to happen. Not even IAG as they have given a commitment based upon the result of the Pilots ballot.

Speculatively it looks like integration, at which point the 90 day consultation for TUPE can begin. Not before! Hence any 'fact' based upon TUPE regulations is automatically speculation and rumour.

If the BA Pilots think BMI isn't worth 2 days holidays and a productivity increase then BMI continues on its merry, loss making, way. No TUPE, no integration , nothing. Be sure as eggs are eggs though that the T's & C's within BMI would be slashed. Say 'no' and the slots get leased until IAG need them and BMI goes under.

As much as anyone moans about integration it seems to be the lesser of two evils at the moment.

All rumour and conjecture of course as I, although I keep myself very well informed, cannot, for certain, forsee the outcome of the ballot or the TUPE discussion if relevant.

Look. I'm not getting into an argument about this. I have the current fleet list on my desk and it covers all of this and a whole lot more.

There are numerous things wrong with that list you've put up.

Doesn't really matter much in the grand scheme of things how many Airbii you own, all that really matters to anyone in BMI (IMHO of course) is how the BA pilots compare two different shades of brown.
I think for anyone in BMI, much the same, all said & done, except your part in the decision Re your future, is probably a bit more passive.

Dawdler, in post #87 you refer to recent BASSA communications which are not in the spirit of the Settlement Agreement. I wholeheartedly agree that BASSA need to be more professional and sophisticated in their comms and I have fed this back to them as have others.

Unfortunately, after such a prolonged battle there are still many challenges ahead, not least the threat to the success of the Settlement Agreement caused by factions opposed to peace.

It may surprise you but I would not recommend you take a course of action that would lead to industrial dispute. It really is the nuclear option and the damaging fall out is unpleasant and long lasting.

I would not underestimate Willie Walsh, this ‘offer’ was not just pulled out of a Mixed Fleet hat. Consultants and lawyers will have spent time studying the options.

I also would not be over confident of a landslide ‘Yes’ vote, I may not have access to the BALPA forum but I do have access to Pilots in a social setting. Perhaps it’s my ‘militant’ aura that brings out the inner socialist in others but I am not hearing a lot of love for the ‘Yes’ vote. It may be the beer talking but I will be interested to see how the vote swings.

Finally, in the spirit of One Team I would like to assure you that having been passionate about our dispute, I am passionate about ensuring both sides abide by our Settlement Agreement. Lizanne Malone, the BASSA Chairman, had indicated she would step down from the role at this years BASSA elections. I wrote to her suggesting she stands again as I believe her new found collaborative relationship with the leadership Team is the steady hand on the tiller required to steer us through the stormy post dispute waters.

I do ask the Moderators indulgence in allowing me to share the reassuring news that after discussing it with her family, they agreed she had ‘unfinished business’ and she will be standing again. A relief to all who want to build on the foundations of peace laid so far.

The postings made by Dingbaticus are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions.

Right, that's my decision to never pay another penny for BASSA membership and "representation" confirmed.


My posts do not represent the views of my employer, they are no more than an expression of my desperation for adequate, accountable, and adult representation in my work place. Sadly it seems the dream will not come true and the nightmare will continue.

Dingbaticus
 

Thanks...Given the style of your posts may I ask if you are making that recommendation as an official of a union, an elected representative of the same, or as a member of BA management?

A bar somewhere downroute or coffee bar in Crew Report Centre :E ?

Ah but if you'd listened more carefully you'd have realised there's even less love of the possible or probable consequences of voting 'No', so I humbly suggest you overestimate the power of your "aura", militant or otherwise. The whole situation is probably best described as being "between a rock and a hard place", or "darned if you do, darned if you don't" ;).

As an aside I wonder how many of the workforce at BA will find the "reassuring news" you refer to at all "reassuring" or a "relief"? I suppose that's an argument for our cabin crew colleagues and will no doubt be hotly debated on another part of Pprune ( Two years down the road I'm still banned from that particular forum.....I wear that sanction with pride.....:ok:)

a prowling passenger stops by to appreciate an amusing aside.....:D

I wonder to whom this announcement is intended to be "reassuring"?

Perhaps any further discussion of this matter is better placed on the cabin crew forum.

So it's all your fault if Bassa continue with their incompetent leaderhip. :D

Tell me, does she get her tickets and accommodation paid by Bassa (she commutes from LA) AS RUMOUR HAS IT? Perhaps I should be a Bassa rep too.

"A steady hand" , an absolute classic.........................:ugh:

Crazy that you could think she was responsible for the "peace" and had nothing to do with causing the "war"!:ugh:

Fruitcake
 

I wouldn't believe too much dear old Dingbaticus says, she's quite a fantasist, known to have invented a captain boyfriend in the past. Amongst other things.

Looks like the 'usual suspects', having lost all right to any say at all in the possible merger because of their behaviour in the last few years are trying to influence things via this place. That's not been a bad thing because at least now the BMI pilots have hopefully got a tiny bit more insight into the mindset of certain people in BA.

Perhaps it's time for the pilots and BA and BMI to resume the debate?

Maybe you are not listening to the right vibes, or looking at the big picture? Of course there is no love for the YES vote. I have no desire to vote for a reduction in the t's and c's of my chosen career, when, through no fault of my own or my colleagues we find ourselves working in an industry that not only recieves zero support from our own government and the unelected quango government of the continent we live in, but actully has those governments actively sabotaging any attempt at recovery of our industry and the economy at large.
Given any choice at all there is no way I would vote for something that is obviously going to significantly reduce my earnings and increase my work over my career.
HOWEVER, I do not have a choice. The alternative is 100% gauranteed to be worse. I have no guarantee that BA express won't happen in the future anyway, I have no guarantee that all the other bad things won't happen in the future, but if I vote NO, I guarantee they happen now.
We are sliding down the hill fast, the only aim of the game now is to dig the anchors in and reduce the rate of descent. Hopefully at some point in the future there will be a means to climb the hill again, but despite all the militancy on here from certain people, such an opportuninty DOES NOT EXIST right now.
As I see it the choices are:
vote 'yes' - stay in the game, play defence, hopefully get our own 'powerplay' opportunity in the future.
Vote 'no' - leave the game entirely, have no say in the future outcome, apart from as spectators. And just like all spectators, we can splutter and swear and shout and be full of rightious indignation, but actually have zero ability to influence the outcome of the game.

hmmm, seems to me WW is playing a blinder here! If 757 Driver is typical of a BA pilot then you are all running scared and willing to almost give away anything due to the fear of the unknown.

Fact is BALPA has scope agreements and a large membership etc and IF BA express were to be introduced then the scope clauses would kick in. Any expansion of BMI (BA express) beyond the existing 27 ish aircraft could be easily blocked, any transfer of slots / aircraft towards BMI would i am sure be vigourously fought. In a word BA express would fail. Dont cave in to this obvious sabre rattling.

Yes, of course its that simple, :rolleyes: thats why we are in this position. Get your head out of european legal books and come and join the real world in the UK. Employment law is different, the legal system is different. Life isn't that simple.
There's no point in explaining it if you can't be bothered to read the previous pages, but suffice to say all the answers as to why what you said is 100% incorrect are contained somewhere in this thread.
I really don't know why I bother to contribute or read anything on this gutter site as 99% of people don't have a scooby doo what they are talking about, and have no interest in teh issues they are debating either. Signing off now for the sake of my blood pressure. I shal continue to debate this subject with my colleagues who A) are more aware of all the issues involved and B) have a stake in the game.
Its easy to be argumentative when its someone elses stake you are playing with.

Crickey... This is getting even more repetitive!

757 Driver is completely correct, there is nothing to add to his synopsis of the situation we are faced with.

Anyone thinking that some type of IA will leave us in a better position is dreaming. Bluepilot, SCOPE does not hold any protection for aircraft outwith the BA...not IAG umbrella, hence our desire to integrate the BMI pilot/slot/aircraft combination.

I wish this was different, and you are correct in saying Willie has played a blinder. He has realised the future threat and holds it over us. That is business, that is his job. He does however realise that allowing us the choice to vote for integration even with the reduction in terms allows him to keep a workforce more onside than if he imposed a new OpCo on the BA pilot workforce, and we all know he is not a man for idle threats with a fear of imposition!

Those without the ability to vote on this are welcome to dream their dreams of IA and holding fast to current working terms and conditions. If you do you are clearly not party to the information that we are being furnished with (much of which has been copied to this forum) or have no concept that the threats being held over us are immediate and far from idle.

As 757 has said, in the game or out. Those are our choices, there is no hypothetical middle, negotiated ground.

Jazzy

757 Driver. Please.............your aggressive tone is not warranted.

As it happens i have a fair amount of experience in this field, have seen and been involved with it before. Believe me when i say you are being fed the best lines to impose change, that line is FEAR. Others here that may not be BA pilots have a wealth of experience and perhaps DO know what they are talking about.....perhaps in fact know a great deal more that YOU.

By restricting your "discussions" to only those involved etc is i would argue putting your own head in the sand.

Incremental drift pay has long been in the gunsights of BA management.

What has amazed me is that BALPA has long held the belief that BA wouldn't change it.

And your evidence for that statement/assersion is?

The integration of bmi and / or any susequent "BA Express"type lower cost set up that might arise in the future is no more than a convenient smokescreen to get the T & Cs changes pushed through quickly and quietly on the cheap.

Does anyone really believe that if BA can increase their profits costs by setting up a new lower cost operation for the short haul network they will think twice about doing so ?.

The bmi buyout has come just at the right time to force through these T & Cs cost cuts, once they have been changed for the worse the excuses will be rolled out as to why it is still neccessary to set up a "BA Express".

Studi
 

agreed 100%, well written and sound argument.

The fact that BMI pilots are not being invited to vote on this also speaks volumes in my opinion.

Not many Turkeys will ever to vote for Christmas IMV, especially Willie`s version !! bah Humbug !!

Studi

I agree totally with your philosophy. I firmly believe that if the majority voted "no", WW would still have to integrate bmi in order to minimise the losses. Without using BA as a vehicle to do this, he would simply amortalise the losses that Lufthansa have had to endure, for a considerable time in the future at IAG's expense.

Remoulding the shell of a company that is currently bmi, would cost too much and IAG shareholders would not be best pleased that vast sums of money were required to be pumped in to a standalone company in order to turn bmi around with new crewing, operations, premises etc.

Therefore I can not see it happening in a month of Sundays. Voting "Yes" may seem like you are protecting your position but in actual fact, it is more like firing a cannon at IAG from below your own waterline. From here, the ship can only go down:ugh:

They are not in a position to have a vote on a BALPA/BA agreement (scope).

Studi, this is a load of cobblers!

If only because with bmi absorbed into BA there are no slots available to "set up BA Express"

If only because IAG is spending hundreds of millions to buy and absorb bmi (BA pilots are not being asked to supply hundreds of millions, only £10m)

There are no "less off days", we still will get the same number of days off, we simply have to finance the agreed difference!

The "promise" from Willy is the improved career structure and prospects that will come in time from changing the slots that bmi brings into use for longhaul expansion.

I don't think you have the faintest understanding of what is going on here!

'BA pilots are not being asked to supply hundreds of millions, only £10m'

I'm not sure £3000 each is insignificant and what career structure is on the table thats better than the one that's already in place ?

The vote opens at 13.00 today. Closes on 31st at 12.00.

Just want to let you know we're all counting on you ;-)

BALPA members have been sent a link (via their personal email account ) to access the online voting sysytem. If you haven't received this yet check with BALPA HQ to see that they have a current address for you.......

Allowing BA's pilots to vote for their own destruction, is merely a psychological exercise by Willie. Once the BMI pilots are assimilated amongst the ranks of BA's legacy flight crew, the will to fight any further changes will be diluted.

It seems that this reversal for fortunes suffered by BA pilots, has caused a reassessment of what the cabin crew faced. According to a couple of CSD friends of mine, they are being everso nice to the cabin crew all of a sudden, as it dawns on them that whilst serving drinks in the cabins, Willie was sharpening his knife for them.

Voting YES to this deal is a short term fix for what lays ahead. BA flight crew should demonstrate a bit more perspicacity and see that a NO vote buys more time, and places the ball back in Willies court. The previous policy of appeasement has run aground like an Italian cruise liner. BA's cabin crew were right to sock it between the eyes to Willie, with a call for a 12 day strike over Christmas. That is the language Willie understands. If it had come off, rather than a Judge using tenuous legal arguments to overturn a democratic ballot, then it would have been all over.

A YES vote will cause disunity and mistrust, exactly what Willie wants. A NO vote could unite a majority against the common cause. Better to be hung for a sheep than a lamb perhaps?

Count, you really are a cad. It is so amusing to read your posts - thank you. Please keep it 'Flowin' buddy, you're a treasure to behold. :ok:

Boom.

You Doomsday experts are forgetting one thing:



B R A N D

Count

I love your take on things. So warped, but delightfully so.

I'd rather have Sarah Palin with her finger on the nuclear button, than listen to advice from you on how to vote.

Now, get back to your pot noodle in your room dear chap.