AIMINGHIGH123

Just because we love, well like, what we do does not mean we should put up with reduced pay. In my opinion its not just about the 65K outlay in order to get the job in the first place. Its about responsibility. I take an enormous amount of responsibility as a Captain every time I sign the tech log and fly 189 passengers from A to B safely, and I should be paid accordingly! Otherwise whats the point??

Once again in English please.

Also check your maths.

Nevermind, I got a yokel to translate.

No, why would they?
How would I know? Do I even care?
Again, I neither know nor care.
If you are able to read then I suggest you have another look at my posts because at no point did I say that I was great because I didn't pay for a job.

Actually I had no contacts but I was lucky enough to get an interview. Even if someone has got contacts somewhere then they still have to pass all the exams and simulator checks don't they? So does that not rely on a minimum standard of intelligence and ability?

Would you kindly show me where I said they should sit and wait?

I hope your three and five times multiplication is better than your subtraction. Or maybe you're one of these twenty year old hot shot children of the magenta line who doesn't need that kind of skill anymore. You can probably quote verbatim your operating manual but when it comes to experience then you are sadly lacking. How long have you been flying?

I'm glad you're not worried Toby, that wasn't my intention, I'm sure everybody appreciates your cyber hug though. However, there must be something wrong because statements of facts don't usually elicit such responses from 'normal' people.

If you can find any post of mine that has "put down" Ryanair or it's employees please do quote it for all to see.

As it stands so far I have stated that there are airlines who do not charge you money to work for them. Do you dispute that fact? I have also said that I am lucky enough to have never paid for any job and this has elicited the most aggressive of reponses. I'm a cun*, apparently, because I haven't had to pay for a job. You can clearly see the responses, do they appear reasonable to you? Now, who's got a chip on their shoulder?

I also asked a pertinent question about Ryanair contracts and minimum number of flying hours. If you have any more revealing information regarding this then please do let everyone know.

Most of your post is just rambling, vitriolic, guff aimed at me. You spend more time composing an attacking post about something you claim you don't give a toss about than the actual subject at hand. Well done.:D

Finally,
Surely I would have an inferiority complex no? Maybe you should practice your amateur attempts at psychoanalysis in private before you publicly make an arse out of yourself again.

Tobias118118 appears to have deleted his post.

Bob

Is it not more like 60km from A to 120km from B on Ryanair? :{

Coming on here telling people it's wrong to pay for type and to wait for the tiny percentage of jobs for which you need a huge contact to get is acting like your better then others! Your in and didn't pay and your quite happy to see nobody else get a job! Your attitudes all wrong Spandex! Obvious you havent been faced with issues new guys have and your too stuck up to give them advice, good advice "wait and don't pay" is pathetic advice

A) You do not need a 'contact' to get a job which does not require paying for.

B) At no point did I say wait for a job. I was asked a question and I answered it.

C) Why does suggesting that you shouldn't pay for a type rating mean I'm better than others?

D) What makes you think I'm happy to see nobody get a job?

E) I don't have an attitude. I have an opinion. If you're not happy listening to other opinions and stamp and shout every time someone disagrees with you how on earth do you cope in the sim?

F) It may well be pathetic advice which is why I didn't offer it as such.

G) Wanna answer this yet?

H) Would you rather my advice was 'Yeah just pay through the nose for a job you haven't earned'? No need because that's what you've done anyway.

RYR are the fast track scheme into the biz. I would have been happy to take it had I been called. But they never called.

There are jobs out there but working yourself up to the airlines is a lot more painful as you progress through the ranks ever so much slower.

I had effed around two years in the GA but eventually succeeded when I got hired by a major, against all odds. Modular training, early 30s. Boy it was tough! Keeping up faith was the hardest of all. In fact, worse than my IR training! ;) So far I have not had to pay for anything, all been paid for by the company. No, I had not known someone on the inside before I got hired. All down to my own efforts.

That constant battle between pro and contra RYR is really good stuff to read, pretty entertaining actually, however it leads to nowhere. Some people don't mind paying for the rating, some people do. Personally, I favor a company putting it out first, as there's only very little motivation for them to get rid of the investment again and that's great to know.

Why's that???

Maybe I should have mentioned I had not bothered with RYR for 18 months after finishing my training as I believed their deal was crap. However, after more than a year seeing myself pass interviews (note use of plural) but only thrown in holding pools, getting older but only logging SE time and not getting paid for my efforts I had started to think about eventually biting the bullet and applying to the 'devil.' :p

Luckily, I had not been called, instead got an interview out of the blue with my current outfit and after passing all got hired - happy end. :)

The willingness to sign up for the RYR deal was based on pure frustration and just trying to explore all options. I actually do not know whether I would have really gone for it and spent another 30k. The thought of having no rights and the possibilty of getting shown the door despite the investment of 30 grand scared me big time.

However, that said I have a few friends, who have been FOs with RYR for nearly two years now and, as much as many might hate to read it, they are doing great. No, their employer does not pay for the uniform nor for parking or sim rides, yet their net take-home is a great deal more than mine and, on top, they are logging jet time.

Still, am I jealous or do I want to be in their shoes? No.

I bet it isn't when you both have a dozen or so standbys a month!

Surely not! However, in all fairness, none of my friends has ever complained about being given a dozen or two standbys a month. Then again, when people have made the wrong decision, do they say? Most don't. If that two dozen standbys practice does occur in RYR than that IS bad, very bad.

Again, I am happy to NOT have had to take that route.

FO , 80 hrs in December. What's all the fuss about?

November hours are always low, but you still average 750 hrs per year in the right seat.

Nothing wrong with that.

A few slow weeks in winter worth a thread on pprune?

Come on.

Not really sure how or why you arrived at this particular gem. We are talking about Ryanair standbys, the contract that you signed and paying for a job.

Where has low houred professional pilots ever come into it? Just how bad is your reading comprehension?

There's no luck involved at all Irishpilot1990. I'll wager you haven't breached second or third payscale yet. You're cheaper than an FO with more hours, so you fly more.

Once you have more hours you'll see those nicely filled rosters dwindle in favor of the new cadets at your base.

Mr. Spandex: People do what they must to get on in life. Sometimes that requires sacrifices, something which nobody likes. You're entitled to your own opinion as is everyone. From previous posts of yours though I can't help but sense a pertinent, be it quite subtle, condescending attitude towards people willing to join schemes such as Ryanair's. Unless I am misinterpreting that, in which case disregard my post, where I live it's considered reputable to come out for one's opinion openly and fully. Not by hiding behind phrases like "that's not what I said."

Regardless of all that, remember we are all colleagues who share the same passion and love for flying. The paint on the outside of the fuselage shouldn't matter when it comes to how we treat eachother. :)

disclaimer: English is my 3rd language. No references to errors in spelling or grammar, please.

Sorry guys, just one more post taking this off-topic a bit.

studi, Where are those many jobs out there? Personally, I cannot see them. It's always just a handful, who get the break. Often times, many of whom already with experience and just jumping ship. Opportunities for people fresh out of the press are rare. And it stays that way even in good times. I see you are Germany based so I take it you are flying for LH? I know a few people affiliated with that outfit, too and I can confirm I have also come across that figure. However, we all know all too well selections conducted by a legacy are ever so much harder to pass and only a very few make it through. Fact is, a great many will not end up getting paid to fly at all, let alone making a profit out of their 50k plus investment. So I don't think it's fair to blame those people looking but unable to land themselves a proper flying job. Yes, I also believe there are a lot of 'whiners' out there but the truth is, the number of qualified folks exceeds by far the number of jobs. It is something wannabes must be (made) aware of!

Please also note, not everyone passes the RYR interview. I have heard of and spoken myself with several people that have been sent home. In fact, one of my best friends passed their interview and was one of eight, if I recall correctly, on the day of the interview. As far as he's concerned only he himself and one or two others have been given the go-ahead. RYR's interview procedure is highly selective. You must know your stuff to be taken onboard and it's not like you just hand over 30k to be offered the job. Another friend, OAA graduate, is telling me of former coursemates being sent home, who initially have been awarded for their performance while training. RYR just could not afford to employ flight crew, who they believe are not the right material.

Given themerve's figures I can say this:

I have been bonded for twelve months to an amount of 30k. My take-home is between 20-23k p.a. On top of that, my employer pays into a state pension scheme. So should I already walk after 12 months, which I do not intend for obvious reasons since I am extremley happy with my situation, I have earned around 50k in my first year. However, given only a payrise of net 2,700 a year, it would then be "only" 73k in two years. After another year, and another 2,700 net payrise, it is now nearly 100k take-home in 3 years. Hours flown varies from base to base but is said to be around 600-800.

On the other hand the RYR deal (I stand to be corrected, please!): Given 35k net take-home (after all has been paid for RYR do not bother paying for) and an annual 7k payrise in the second and third year (I cannot say if there is another, higher pay rise in the third year with the company), the average RYR FO is looking at around 125k in three years. However, he must have flown 750 hours to earn that figure and shall not get sick, etc. TR costs 26k after tax refund so net take-home also is around 100k in three years.

To be honest, after looking at the numbers now I am quite surprised myself, as I have never compared in detail my and the RYR deal. However, please note my contract also entails a performance-based element. I will have to fly a certain amount of hours to make end's meet. And I am not logging 738 time.

As said before, early this year I would have been thrilled to take the RYR deal but now I am so glad I have never had to bother. Job and financial security are priceless. That being said though, I feel with those looking. If, after having spent all that money and dragging yourself through that intense training, you just do not get a sniff at any flying job at all, you do start thinking...

Now back to topic! :ok:

d105, I'm not hiding behind phrases I am pointing out, in the interest of clarity, that what some posters here think I have said isn't what I actually said, or implied.

themerve, you can't go around putting words into other peoples' mouths. The word I used was earned, the word you used was deserve. There is a difference. Of course if somebody is holding a position they obviously deserve to be there, it's how they got there, in this instance, that is in question.

No I have never seen the Ryanair entry requirements, are they the same for all the other airlines you've mentioned? Still, you miss my point, I am not anti Ryanair, or it's employees, or low hour pilots as I fly with them every day. I am anti paying for a job.

Yes you paid for training. Training that the airline required you to complete. Without such training you would not have a job. So, you can sugar coat it as much as you like but you still paid to get a job. Why else would you have given an airline thirty odd grand? Out of the goodness of your heart?

Exactly, they have earned nothing, they bought their position, and now they are receiving nothing - or very little, as you appear to be getting a good few standbys. You're on standby whilst the new, cheaper version of you is getting some time in, when they get expensive they will be getting more standbys while the new, cheaper version of them is getting sometime in. Remember, minimum hours was not stated in your contract was it. I actually have some sympathy for you as you expected your thirty odd grand to be an investment and sadly it has turned out to be an expensive way of sitting around while other people go flying.

It appears that you have difficulty in comprehending the Ryanair business. For example, in extremis, Ryanair could employ a million pilots and fly only one aeroplane. It doesn't matter to them as they only pay you when you fly. Otherwise there is no cost to the airline when there is no need for you to fly.

Finally, my posts on this thread are mostly as an answer to a question or a statement of fact or my opinion. They are not considered advice.

Guys, there's a saying that goes "never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." So do us all a favour and just ignore whatever lord spandex posts. Maybe then we can keep to the topic.

Tell you what, you could just ignore everyone who has ever disagreed with you or everyone who may have a different opinion to you. :D

Bet you have some lively discussions then.:zzz:

Fingers in ears na na na na na na na I can't hear you:rolleyes:

Well you could take it bit further.
I had to pay for my licenses, PPL, CPL, IR,(ATPL came later), all company I asked required me to have license before hiring me, none wanted to pay for it. Without such training I would not have a job.
So you can say I paid to get a job(even if I never had to pay for a rating).

Good for you that someone else paid for all your training.;)

Hello chaps,

Been I while and i've rather enjoyed it but to clarify,

Highest hours month was June for me 78hrs averaged 67hrs per month for July, August and September.

Now, as I stated before, I require to fly 52hrs to break even on all bills, private pension, tax, training loan etc.

Now over the summer months that has allowed me to bank 71hrs for my month off. As stated 52hrs to break even so leaves me 19hrs banked for my 2blocks of 5 days.
November 38hrs, December 35hrs. So already I'm 31hrs in deficite to what I need to break even never mind put away all this extra which a few have stated is so easy to do. So please tell me where I go from here?

There are a few guys at the base the same as me yet there a few doing my December hours in a week. Send a email to rostering results in a canaries flight wiped off and a standby changed to an MMM. Awesome. Nice and fair.

To those twats with 80-90hrs this month I'm alright Jack attitude, thats that poison the rest of the industry complains about!

Spandex
 

Who are you working for yourself?

You're quite right. But, where do you draw the line?

For instance, part of the 'deal' now requires you to pay for, lets say, landing fees. Would you happily do this in the same way that you paid for the type rating?

No? Why not?! You paid for the legally required type rating so why won't you pay for the legally required landing fees?

Lord Spandex,

To me it seems that you think everyone working at Ryanair is doing so because because either they have, as you say , taken the "easiest" option or they couldn't get a job elsewhere when in fact the majority of the people actually want to work there. Myself and most of the guys I trained with specifically said that they did not want to work for YOUR company unless the worst came to the worst and they were still looking for a job in 2 years time. I was fully aware of the t's & c's, I was fully aware of having to fund my TR, I was fully aware that there was no minimum hours guarantee (as I'm sure 99% of us were) yet we all would rather pay £24k for a TR and fly for Ryanair than work for your company even though the TR was funded by your airline. At the end of the day everything comes down to personal choices so although you may not agree with SSTR majority accept it

Spandex
 

Are you working as a commercial pilot?

Which company is that then? Don't believe I've said who I now work for.

Good for you. You've not really got a complaint about so many standbys then have you?

So much for ignoring me and sticking to the topic.

GAF15, why so interested?
1. MYOB
2. Yes

Spandex
 

You are quite a regular "poster" on a Ryanair thread. Why would,nt I be interested?

MYOB? Is that a juvenile way of saying mind your own business?

Now that is rich.

GAF15,

If I felt the need to then I could broadcast details of myself, my work and my life on the internet. However, I'd like to keep all of that private. I don't even see how what I do and who I work for is relevant to this thread anyway. I hope you're not the Stasi because you may not like that in the slightest.

If you don't like non Ryanair employees to post on a Ryanair thread then don't create a Ryanair thread on a public forum, is that so hard to understand? Rich indeed!

MYOB is a lazy way of saying such a thing.

P.S. I hope you've asked all the other contributors to this thread what they do and who they work for. I wouldn't like to feel that you're singling me out for special attention.

I was reading this site and while it is poorly put together the gist of what is being called a " recruitment scam " is that people pay for training as cabin crew and then fail their probation after providing very cheap labour for just under a year. Is it moving towards the same thing in first officer positions? Does it work out cheaper for Ryanair to keep the RHS filled with a fresh cadet ( in the summer season ) ( if it does Im sure knowing Mick O Learys approach to business that is what he is doing if he can get away with it ) , however it makes less sense to me that he is doing the same thing with captains unless of course a year 2+ captain costs more money and he is happy that he can get a supply of year1 captains from his cadet pool ( command is a form of carrott being touted from what I can gather ). Does in essence Ryanair want you to move on as soon as you become more expensive? I am not knocking people who have paid to fly ( as a TR does not cost 30K ..right ?) but more trying to grasp where the commercial sense for bean counters lies in it all.

Of course! As usual anybody who doesn't agree with what you've done or think that Ryanair is the best 'deal' is instantly classed as a jealous wannabe. Get over yourself.

I am sure that the sniping, puerile comments, bad spelling and poor grammar, displayed by some of the representatives of this airline on this forum, are not a reflection of the entire pilot workforce. But I have yet to view any other airline specific related thread, that will come close to one about Ryanair. When it comes down to silly, immature, arrogant and sometimes aggressive responses to posts, you guys take the biscuit.

Beauties such as this, you've gotta love em. :ok:

Can't wait to see the comments when you guys find out ryr next plan for new recruits, ie 12 month contract then "see ya". On sale in 2011. That ort to get ya's going.

Spandex,

You're missing some things. First, not all bases suffer from the "standby-itis". In fact, the enormous amounts of standby's seem to mostly hit UK bases. I've explained why somewhere else on this forum. But what it boils down to is too many Ryanair bases too close together. In other bases, flying remains quite steady throughout the winter. From when I was an FO I remember 50-60 hours in the winter. I wonder how many legacy carriers (maybe yours) can sport those figures for their FO's on a 737 or equivelant aircraft.

Second, paying for your type rating is still investing in your future. I would not pay for landing fees or fuel for a particular carrier. But my type rating is for the most flown passenger aircraft in the world, so wouldn't you say having that aircraft on your license is a good investment?

Last. You can't blame people for asking questions about your experince or employer. As you seem to have found the holy grail in aviation that all the rest of us have missed, naturally people will start to wonder how genuine your claims are.

Paidworker,

It is unclear at the moment. I believe the goal is to be self-reliant on upgrades to maintain their captain pool. It seems that's going to be the only way too. As conditions are slowly picking up, people are talking (and not only talking) about leaving. A lot of captains seem to be more and more eager to jump ship. Can't blaim them of course.

The sad thing is Ryanair could be a fantastic company. The aircraft are young, the routes challenging and the training good. It's just this terrible, terrible way of dealing with people that they have. There's a few small adjustments that if they would be done, pilot and cabin crew loyalty would skyrocket.

I'm working for this company until something better comes along. Most of my friends share the same view. For the company, that's sad.

d105,

I haven't ever claimed to have found the holy grail of aviation. All I said was that I haven't had to pay for a job. 10 years ago that was the norm, why is it so hard for you to accept that it still should be? What I do and who I do it for is still irrelevant to this Ryanair thread. Whether or not my claims are genuine does not change the realities of working for Ryanair, does it?!

Investing in your future maybe, if there are other jobs to go to. You've said it yourself you're only hanging around until something better turns up. Why are you still here?

Maybe you're doing 50 hours a month or you're on standby all month but the point is that, potentially, everybody will sooner or later end up on a majority of standbys instead of flying. Fly the cheap pilots, don't have to pay for the expensive ones!

lospilotos,

Type ratings and essential training also used to be a direct operating cost of the airlines, until the first person opened the flood gates and paid for it. Fuel, landing fees, navigation fees and maybe even passenger compensation will remain direct operating costs until the first plonker accepts a contract which says they are liable for these costs. Watch this space.

Spandex Masher,

In 1921 women got the right to vote in my country and until 1964 it was basically illegal to be unemployed. In late 2010 you are now allowed to be openly gay in the US military. As I recall it, around 1995, a one way ticket to London cost something like 600 GBP since you could only buy one-way tickets in Business Class. Of course airlines could pay for everything then. Newsflash!!! Things change...

I´m not a woman nor gay, and I´m sure you´ll come up with something witty to comment on all of the above, which I´m looking forward to having a good smile about. But that´s really all your comments in this thread are worth, a big smile.

Would I have loved to have had everything paid for me? Of course!
Did I have a choice? At this point, not really!
Have I earnt my right hand seat of the B737? Definately!

Irishpilot, in 2020 will you happily pay for something that used to be free just because it's ten years from now?

How about if I charge you for parking in your own driveway because it's now ten years after 2000 and I own a public carpark. How does that sit with you?

lospilotos,

Ask yourself why things have changed. Do you really think that airlines are only able to survive these days because you paid for your type rating? Much respect to you then, thanks.

Or do you maybe think airlines are taking the easy way out by getting you top pay for some of their costs? Much respect Mr CEO, you've achieved survival by using your employees to partly fund your airline.

I bet you're a really good driver then.

Dear all,

I would cut Lord Spandex Masher some slack.

His arguments, in my opinion, are sound. Just because what he says may sound old fashioned doesn't mean they're irrelevant.

A zero hours, no guarantees of income contract means one thing only: heartache going forward. Ever tried getting a mortgage on such a contract when your 25 year old girlfriend gets pregnant (congratulations by the way)?

Our profession used to be worth something.

Now, it seems youngsters are happy to get into £100k+ debt in order to live the dream: an 0350z report for NRN-SXF-NRN-ZAZ-NRN or whatever for 5 days in a row. See the World? See a f?cling psychiatrist more like.

What Spandex is saying is spot on. Listen to him when it comes to zero hours, standby contracts.

Spandex,

Ha ha, yes I do alright thank you... :)

Your grudge seems to be with that one first person that accepted to pay for his/her (his I guess) type rating. Now, 10 or so years down the line you cannot take that out on all the thousands of good pilots that has gone down that road since.

Of course, the fact that we as pilots do not need any type rating and recurrent training paid by the company is not the only reason as to why FR is making approx 300 MEUR profit this year. It is an overall commitment to cutting costs and having a lean operation along with a smart business model that is the reason for that.

What I´m trying to say is that there is no use living in the past. Why not just enjoy the fact that you did not have to pay for your training and get on with it.

PS. Personally I´m happy to let women vote, but they should not be allowed to drive.. DS.

lospilotos,

You say you'd rather not have had to pay for your type rating. What about when you have to pay for the next one and the one after that and the one after that? Can you? Will you?

I agree, there's no use living in the past. We can't change what has happened. However, we can influence what is going to happen.

Lets not F up the future anymore than it already is.

Stan,

Thanks, I though I was the only one. Watch out for snipers though:suspect:

Spandex
 

Some guys going into Wizz air pay for their type ratings. I know two personally. I know guys at Easy that paid for their ratings on the way in. Jet 2, FlyNiki, and I met a guy some time back that paid for his training on the ATR into Aurigny. This is is'nt just Ryanair. And would'nt it be great if this was,nt the case.

As d105 said given the amount of input you have on this thread and this industry, it would be interesting to know where you are coming from.

However you have the right to remain completely anonymous, and I for one respect that.