For all the 4 stripers out there.....

https://krb-sjobs.brassring.com/TGWe..._5476&GQId=303

Interestingly no requirement for 737 PIC time.

EK

So...brassring....and Zenon...wow. At last all the 737 boys & girls will get jobs!!?????!!!!:rolleyes::hmm::suspect:

Stupid tests
 

I got an email from Zenon last night asking if I would like to go to a jet2 interview day.................. With 3000 + command hours on the 737 I have better things to do than be tested on things that I have not used since I left school thirty-eight years ago and have no relivence to the job.

My advice to the jet2 management would be to save a bit of money by kicking the PC obsessed HR people out and get your pilot management to interview properly qualified candidates, that way common sence gets a chance, rather than the just getting the people who have paid to go on the how to pass the compass test course !

Well, you failed the flexibility and attitude test right there... So you see these tests do work. :}

Smart ass !
 

I see very little advantage to Jet2 to put in place a set of tests that will only show if you have been on the course that shows you how to pass the tests.

The last CRM course that I did was run by an educational psychologist who was of the opinion that the Compass type of testing was a reasonable way of finding out if someone who had never flown was a good training risk, but this type of test was compleatly useless at recruting experienced pilots.

It was this psychologists opinion that for the recruitment of experienced crew the best way was for two management pilots to interview the person for half an hour, they will soon smell a rat if the guy is not up to the job.

So NO RYR you opinion is based on smart ass comment and mine is based on research by a professor of educational psychology, I will leave the forum to decide who is has the correct flexibility and attitude.

You don't need to "go on a course" to pass Compass tests. :rolleyes: They're just maths, memory and a bit of common sense. I agree they're a daft bit of pointless, HR driven nonsense but they're not hard and are just a hoop to jump through if you want the job.

In regards to the Jet2 job you applied for, the options available are: a) jump through the hoops and then get the job or b) go on the Internet and tell everyone you don't want to jump through the hoops and then don't get the job.

Easy.

Spot on - tests like these have been allowed far too much input into pilot recruitment. Your LPC score paints all the picture required and how get on with the pilot manager interviewing you.

Stopstart
 

The point that I am making is that those who have been on the trainning course will be much more likely to perform better than those who have not.

So the result is that recruitment becomes based on who attended the trainning course, and not who is likely to be a better employee.

All of which may be true, but none of which is relevant, because those are the recuitment hoops through which you will have to jump to get a job at Jet2.

I'm fairly certain that A and C isn't looking to rejoin the fold, although I know he would do a good job for us as he did when last I flew with him; however I feel he is right about the value of the compass tests.

4 screw
 

Quite correct the fact I have no wish to join jet2, not because there is anything wrong with flying with them, I just have a job that works better for me.

It has long been an opinion of mine that tests such as the compass test are good for assessing trainning risk for new starters but not for experienced crew. Until the start of last year this was just my opinion untill I attended the CRM course run by this professor of educational psychology, he was quite outspoken about the subject and was of the opinion that a lot of airlines were getting ripped off by the HR companies that are ( in his opinion) mis-selling these tests and had a scientific basis for his statements.

Unfortunatly I think it is the fear of the lawyers that makes companies use such tests because they can point to something in the test if someone is dissatisfied by rejection, it is a lot harder to defend your actions in court if it is just the opinion of two management pilots.

I guess it is just another case of erosion of standards to satisfy the lawyers, just like the reluctance to let people hand fly the aircraft and the pendulum will swing back when it becomes clear that this type of testing is a wast of time and money just as the Air France A330 crash has focused the industry on the errosion of basic flying skills.

All the airlines are making candidates do these exact tests or something similar... EK, BA... even ex-TREs on their 4th logbook. I guess the computer tests and group ex are far cheaper than hiring a sim if thats not part of the process?

I know of people who have each spent in excess of £10,000 preparing for the BA assessment day(s). Interview technique practice, verbal testing, 747 sim hire, etc. Maybe they would have got the job anyway, but I guess it provided them peace of mind.

The jet2 interview is very enjoyable and professional. They really want to get to know you as a person. By comparison I found the BA interviews very staged and artificial.

I agree. Been through both processes and the Jet2 one felt much better than the BA 'give an example of...' type interview.

Spiderman
 

Quote:-All the airlines are making candidates do these exact tests or something similar... EK, BA... even ex-TREs on their 4th logbook. I guess the computer tests and group ex are far cheaper than hiring a sim if thats not part of the process?


Part of the problem with as you say making ex-TRE,s do these tests is that one of the tests that i did (not at Jet2) was using a set of command bars that looked just like a flight director and doing math at the same time, Aha you say easy ! well maybe for the ab-initio or those of the computor game age but when you have to unlearn thirty years of flying because the thing works in the reverse direction it fails to be a fair test for the most experienced in the business.

I know of one company that failed a TRE on the compass type tests and then called him back saying that if they could get him through the compass tests he had a job. As you might expect there were wiser heads in the industry who were keen to aquire his services without him having to go through the Compass test pantomime.

I cant help asking what was this game come to if people are spending £10,000 as preperation for an interview, it seems to be a cash cow for the HR parasites who take money from the airlines to set the tests and money from the pilots for the training to pass the tests.

Surely the fact that some of the candidates have had training in how to do the tests makes the results invalid.

A and C
 

I am with you on this one. I too have been asked in the past to attend one of Jet2's Assessment Days. Great. You have to pay for your own transport and hotel. I can put up with that. Then you have to jump through a few metaphorical hoops to prove that you can add up and interact with your co-workers. What on earth do these people think I have been doing for the past twenty years? I have 13,000 hrs and about 4,000 hrs PIC on the B737. I have lost count of the number of CRM courses that I have attended, some enjoyed, some not. I have been examined by English, Scottish, Irish, French, American, Canadian and Dutch TRI/TREs.
I understand why these type of tests are used for brand new candidates who have little or no experience of flying the line, but to use them for experienced professionals seems completely pointless and a waste of company money. As A and C said a good chat with a couple of management pilots will soon demonstrate your attitude and experience in a much more relevant manner than some hocus pocus codged up by HR people who have no idea what flying the line is about.

Frankly, I find it quite insulting for someone with no flying experience and/or technical expertise to start asking me to prove that I can add up and speak to other human beings. What the hell do they think I do day in and day out flying all over Europe. Beats me.

Yes, if you have never flown the line before, or have very limited experience then go ahead and swot up on this stuff, pass the assessment and get a job. But what does it prove. It proves that if you spend lots of time and money practising this sort of stuff you can get through and get the job. It does not prove that you can fly/manage an aircraft at 400mph, plan the descent in your head (FMCs do make mistakes as we all know), make an approach and land at your destination in an efficient and cost effective way. That's what (some) of the job is about.

DD Boeing man
 

I can quite understand how pilots who have thousands of hours find this kind of testing insulting but I am far more interested it putting the sort of rubbish to bed on scientific grounds.

The professor of educational psychology has studied the pilot recruting industry and has found no way of measuring airmanship using psychometric tests, as this is the most important tool in the pilots toolbox it would seem the only way to get some sort of judgment it to put it in front of two or more experienced pilots, if my old fleet manager would have had his way he would have done this interview in the pub as it would be the best way to get the candidate at his ease............ But I don't think my liver would stand a large recruitment program conducted in such a way !

The last interview that I attended the two guys doing the interview looked like I had interrupted a game of golf, the interview was however searching, I got the job and the training was very deep, the airline has first class CRM and one of the most open flight saftey cultures that I have ever seen and is one of the most enjoyable places I have worked.

All the best and safest airlines I have worked for have been devoid of the HR department getting over involved in pilot recruitment, fortunately I have never been involved with the Arline's that get the most criticism on these forums but coincidently those are the airlines that seem to have let the HR luminarys take over the role of recruting pilots.

With regard to Jet2 all I can say is Philip you are getting ripped off by a bunch of HR parasites and you should go back to trusting your pilot management.

Compass Tests!
 

DC, I agree with you entirely. I was driving into Skiathos with a 35knot crosswind gusting the other day and thinking what has whether I can divide or multiply by fractions got to do with this!!!
Absolute nonsense !!! 25 years in the game nearly 20,000hours and most in command within the airline industry between Scheduled,Charter or best of all night freighting as a cargo animal. (Best kept secret in flying!)
If companies want decent Captains they need to look outside the academic box.
Also have 3 degrees including a masters in Psychology and 6 different ATPLS.
Why should I be asked to divide by fractions by someone that doesn't even fly???
AND for what it's worth our profession has been so degraded that over the winter I work for 110 euros a day for often a 14 hour discretion. That has to be close to minimum wage, here in the UK anyway.
Ok, rant over and I know,,,, If I don't like it leave!!
Cheers
MF

All designed by the penguins to keep us fly boys and girls in our place!

in my in-expert (or perhaps un-expert) opinion the detail that screams 'inconsistency' is that the same group of tests is used for everyone from non-rated fresh out flying school candidates right through the range to TREs. I don't know if the test algorithms take account of the age and experience profile of the candidate, and I don't recall giving the machine much detail about myself, but surely you can't use one test to assess such a range of candidates and expect to get objective, contextual results. I will happily sit through almost any barrage of tests and whathaveyou if there is the offer of a half decent job, an honest employer and proper professional contract at the end of it. I'm not sure that Jet two have got the last bit of that right.

The best folk to sus a potential Pilot are the Reception Staff that sign them in.
If they come in thinking they are God then it won't take much for Reception Staff to catch them in their normal behaviours. Normal Pilots = no problemo

Anyways, each airline to there own. Each and everyone have there own selection process.

Any guys starting with jet2 in February???

"Their"

:hmm:

Thanks for pointing that out!

Very interesting, But.....
 

The last page or so has been very interesting and I'm sure you all feel better for getting that off your chests, but...

They had several assessment days 4-6 weeks ago. Lots of 737 and a few 757 guys. They now seem to be short of 737 captains for summer only.

Does anyone actually know if they have sorted out how many people they need next summer full or contract?

Any news on more or less airframes?

People asked back or renewing contract? etc. etc.

On a selfish note I'm 757.

Chin up boys, it's like a dog agility course out there, with all the hoops and hurdles.

I think Firestorm has it spot on,

Jet2 tried to be too cute with the 60 - 70 Baby pilots they interviewed. Whilst the compass testing didn't endear the Company to most, being told "congratulations you've passed - but we have no jobs for you" was confirmation of what many had already perceived about the Company.

Their final mistake was to think they were the only game in town. Too late they've discovered most of their 'hold pool' have secured employment elsewhere.

If they're short of B737 captains this summer it wouldn't come as a huge surprise.

My sympathies are with the CP & Fleet Manager who seem to have been hamstrung by the HR monster at Jet2.

Jet Two seem to over offer jobs in the expectation that some people will find other jobs between the time of being offered, and the start date. I have heard of people who had been offered a job on one of the various contract terms that the offer (permanent, 70% or Xenon), and then have the offer withdrawn.

Assessment training?
 

... I found this at Facebook: Next Jet2 / CompassTest Preparation course at ATTC ; http://www.facebook.com/ATTCcom

Don't have any experience (origin still from the time where flying was fun and sex was save) with such trainings, furthermore we're small group of Austrian an Ryanair pilots, ATTC preparation is well known for Lufthansa / DLR-Test preparation in continental Europe. After actual (financial) difficulties with Austrian Airlines some are looking for alternatives. Jet2 sounds interesting but according to our information it's better to wait for the new year (this year only 70% contracts, more stable and attractive contracts to expect for 2013).

All the best,

Peter

Hi all,
Does anyone know the wait time from submitting a cv to the first call? Do they send a mail to inform an applicant if s/he is not being considered?
Thanks.

Scratchingthesky

Don't be so sure.... There's quite a few waiting to submit resignations.

The compass test software for aviation was developed by EPST Holland. EPST was started by a Dutch I.T chap to make a lot of money. The local university helped come up with some of the tests and the programmers wrote the software.

EPST charge on a per test basis to the end customer. Hence why Oxford training and some other users, started to charge for interviews to cover costs of the tests and to make some money themselves.

The pass bar mark is just chosen by the end customers.

I believe Each test, once completed also has the test results sent and held on EPST's servers. EPST have statistics from all over the world of the various test results.

Its purely a money making scheme and really meant for initial cadet training selection, not for those with 20 years experience changing jobs into established airlines.

To be honest it's bolox and just something for those filthy creatures in HR to feel good about.
The fact is that Jet2 have had a few good guys and a few bad guys get in regardless of this testing. Exactly the same outcome as they had before they had these tests. These are the facts but there you go!

Unfortunately the low cost model runs through the HR Department as well. Newbys out of UNI trying to build an empire. Who know 2/5s of F all about flying. :ugh:

let he who is without sin...
 

... but they do know how to spell the word "northern".

And "newbies" too!





I'll get my coat. :E

No kidding! And I always thought companies were started for the greater good of mankind or at least to produce a product a CUSTOMER wants.... :rolleyes: But you are kidding me right? They are there to make money? Have you contacted the OFT yet? :8

Rant over

I flew with them for 4 years and I wouldn't have been able to pass the tests. I don't think I crashed in the time I was there? :confused:

Scratchingthesky

Which base/fleet/seat are you? PM me if you don't want to post on here.

I KNOW of 2 Capts that are waiting for start dates as DEC's with major Gulf region carriers & several more are getting notification of interview.

They'll have a shock ... they better like Manila followed by more lashings of Manila. There's a lot to be said for being home in the UK and as for airlines, they're all rubbish just painted differently :}

I agree Nearly, having been out in the ME for 3 years, being home in the UK with family and friends each night is priceless.

Just completed a B2B with AUH and DXB and, whilst nice to visit occasionally, I certainly wouldn't entertain living there!!!

Emirates has a nice gaff though in DXB, especially the really cheesy building at the training school that looks like an airliner!!!

Does anyone out there know what the plans are going forward at Jet2 for the next 12-24 months in terms of crew recruitment? Slightly out of phase question considering there seem to be people waiting interviews / dates right now I know, but still, any offerings?