So an FO who is a SFI can train an FO to upgrade to captain in Ryanair?

There are 4 sim periods for the CU upgrade.

Days 1 & 2 are usual LPC failures, approaches from the left seat, nothing unfamiliar. These can be instructed by an SFI FO.

Day 3 is a LOFT usually conducted by a TRI/TRE, Day 4 is a LPC conducted by a TRE. Obviously an FO SFI can't do day 3 & 4.

Command upgrade should be done by commanders. They can transmit the FO upgrading a lot more about the job, experience, tips, etc than a FO doing SFI work but with not actual experience on the job. Command is not about flying but how you manage the resources. But If it works for Ryan............ cheap for them.

it is cheaper to pay an FO to do SFI job that paying a Captain to do the real work. Training is a place were you should not try to save money.

On Ryan FO abort a Take off or the CPT handles the Throttle on the TO???

even I do not agree with a SFI even training a prospective CPT on a V1 Cut on the first day what you tell me ALLOW is better than a SFI conducting all the training. :ok:

The SFI's doing day one is like the RST & LPC checks, SFI day 1 then LTC for the LPC on day 2

The classroom stuff they teach on day 1 of ground school is above the level they were trained as an F/O and so its not an F/O teaching someone to be a captain, its an SFI going through some fundamental stuff and facts, cant see a problem with that at all, the SFI's are much more knowledgeable than I am as an F/O flying the line, and this is down to the extra training and been constantly in a training environment.

I never look at the SFI's in an RST thinking who the hell are you trying to teach me when were in the same job on the line, and nor do any of the captains I have done recurrent training with, they are well respected in the airline and for good reason I feel.

End of rant :ok:

firstly to clear up the command upgrade info: frogone was correct

day 1 command upgrade is pretty much just getting used to flying from the left. standard ops, circle to land, v1 cut, single engine work, approaches, rto/pax evac and narrow runway ops. these are nothing new to the pilot, the only things that differ are some of his/her actions and the perspective of the seat position.
day 2 goes on from day 1 in a similar fashion.
day 3 is a loft exercise - where decision making plays a bigger part. this can only be trained by TRE minimum qualification.
day 4 is the lpc (or lst if the fo doesn't have an atpl already)

7Q Off
the job, experience, tips etc... will be done prior to the sims during command line management training (kind of suitable title don't you think?) from the right seat, and after the sims during command line training.
the training done by the sfi is sop's, procedures, profiles, callouts and manoevres. this has nothing to do with being money saving.

hope this cleared things up.

now for the original question, lospilotos:

the t's and c's are very good, the change in pay will of course depend on what you've been on with your current contract. east midlands operates to the standard 5/4 with every 4th set being a flying 5 days, from the base of your choice (as available). from stansted it's currently mon-fri, again every 4th you fly. you may only get around 300 hours in for the year, but the experience and confidence with the aircraft (systems knowledge, general handling etc..) you gain is incredible. all of the training department are great people to work with and on an individual level it's excellent for your own career development. pm me if you want any more info and i'll try to help you out. best regards

Still dont agree but if it works for Ryan good for them or yo guys.

In my company they trial the use FO as SFI for less than one year to train other FO (If I remember the trial last 7 to 8 months). Same as ryan, procedures, etc on the first 4 or 5 days of a type rating, then a training Captain overtakes the training. They even give recurrent training to other FO. They were never allowed to give simulator to a CAPT or a FO upgrading.

But after the trial, the general concern is that a Captain can transmit a lot about the job more to FO than other FO. There quality of training wasn't as high as the company wanted so they drop the idea.

SFI is just that....a title!
 

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

CAE and GCAT have people doing type ratings that are not actually airline pilots. So why are they qualified to teach RTOs and failures when they have not even been in an airliner flight deck?

BA has First Officers who are TRE/TRI.

So why is it so scandalous to have a first officer, (who has done the exact same course as the captain to run the sim), running a sim.

The 4 days of sims are not about making line management decisions. They are about following procedures that are clearly written in our manuals. If you have gone 4 years previous and done at least 6-8 LPC/OPC and have no idea what is contained in the manuals, then you are bloody lucky!!

Day 2.3.4 you are left to your own devises to see how you make decisions as a captain. There is very little input, if any, during the sims because they are looking at how you handle QRH procedures and decisions. The debrief is then a discussion about why you did what you did.
If you can honestly tell me that some 3000 P1 hour captain who has not had an emergency is better qualified to discuss emergencies and the Ops manual then a 3000 P2 first officer who has had emergencies then you are a fool!

I can tell you for one thing, ALL the SFIs know more then some of the normal line captain out there, and I would rather be sat next to an SFI in a real emergency then some of the old boys!

Can we please forget about it and go back to the thread topic.



If you want to be in EMA or STN, and have a choice of any other base during your line flight week, then go for SFI.
i have not noticed it make much difference to the ability to complete the command upgrade OUTSIDE of the sim stuff.
When operating online, you are not worried about all the failures that they throw at you in the sims. The line training is all about managing the operation, and is where a lot of people struggle regardless of if they were an SFI and can read a QRH nicely.
:ok:

So lets get this straight.
To be a captain in Ryanair merely involves:

"The 4 days of sims are not about making line management decisions. They are about following procedures that are clearly written in our manuals."

As cabin crew follow procedures that are clearly written in manuals are Ryanair not missing a cost saving trick here?

IE get some of the really sharp and experienced CC ( say more than 6 weeks/50 sectors in the job) to train the new first officers.

After all I'd much rather be trained by a crew member who has had multiple problems to deal with than some 20000hr dinosaur who keeps criticising me:E

That's probably what the sim section of the upgrade involves, the rest is covered by Line Training Captains during the upgrade students 1 month + line training.....

So when you upgrade to captain in ryanair you are not require to make management decisions during the 4 day sim training?

jayc, to be honest, If you want me to believe than an FO is more qualified than a CAPTAIN to train other pilots just because he pushes bottoms on the box you wont succeed. If you tell me than the FO at ryan are former jet or turboprop captains first I can agree with you. Off course than a Captain is more qualified to teach than an FO. A 3000 P1 Capt pushing bottoms is more qualified than a 3000 hs P2. The captain has a lot more experience than the FO. On an upgrade a more qualified guy (CPT) should train a less qualified guy (FO or Prospective captain). He has more to offer to the trainee than an FO.

Now I understand why Ryan wants to put Cabin crew as first officer, He has FO more qualified than their own Captains. :E:E

Given that a large number of posters here are from outside Ryanair and seek to criticise a system of which the majority seem to know less than nothing, perhaps we could restrict posts to those which actually address the original question? There is a multitude of other threads where you can all display your staggering ignorance...

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head there sir. The employment of SFIs from the FO position (or the senior FO position as it was formally recognised as back then) dates back to the age of the 737-200. It has worked well for Ryanair; in the same fashion as it works well for other airlines; whether that be Aer Lingus or British Airways. Both these airlines employ their FOs as SFIs. Sure you can argue with great conviction that in each case the Ryanair SFI is likely to have less 'hours of experience' on type than their EI or BA counterpart; however this is largely because the CU training process at FR starts at 2900hrs; based on the suitability and eligibility of the candidate. Within the likes of the, for they can do no wrong carriers, such as BA and EI; CU usually occurs between 8 to 15 years after joining, depending on seniority and aircraft fleet. Then eligibility and suitability is considered. If either airline had experienced a similar rate of growth as Ryanair then their respective systems would be much different. It isn't a case of comparing apples for apples.

Also just for a little bit of perspective, the minimum licensing requirements for a potential applicant to be considered as an SFI in EU land is 1500hrs JAR 25 time. They don't even need to be current on the type in question, they don't have to be current line pilots and there is no requirement to have flown in an operational capacity for the airline that they are conducting training for. So where does this leave the 'who is more experienced/qualified to train argument?' And by the way this is happening at a variety of FTOs across Europe.

Try to put things in perspective here. For one, is your statement even correct? Does someone with 3000hrs P1 have an ability to train? If you have two candidates, one with 3000hrs P1 and the other with 3000hrs P1(US); however the second candidate shows a great level of adaptability, aptitude and interpersonal skills - then who gets the job? The training equasion IS NOT hours of experience = ability to be a trainer.

Additionally, former TP and jet operators with oodles of experience have failed 737 TR courses. Also 'highly experienced' 737 operators have failed OCCs; quite spectacularly. What have they got to add? With an SFI you have a strong training record in relation to OPCs,LPCs and line checks along with several pre-assessments of character, competence and ability by existing LTCs and TREs who have flown with them on numerous occasions. The vast majority of SFIs are also at or approaching the CU stage themselves. Several have previous instructional experience.

Lastly, the consideration lies on what your objective actually is? Within the Ryanair perspective of CUs, the decision making process, as a commander, is not trained or taught by SFIs. As already said on a number of occasions, SFIs within FR train Day one of CU Sim. This is a non assessed day, giving the CU candidate handling experience from the LHS of the aeroplane. It is there to refresh their procedural knowledge in a Normal and non normal context. Their use of the QRH and their application of SOPs, supplementary procedures, part A knowledge is assisted. This is what SFIs are expected to do in their day to day roles as trainers. Day one is a confidence builder as is used to assist the candidate with their training. The rest of the LOFT type exercises are conducted by TRE's. Command decision making is really trained/assessed on the Line as part of line training by LTCs. However the candidate may not make it to this stage should they be deemed ineligible in the sim. At NO STAGE does an SFI make the decision on eligibility. How could they?

No one has to 'agree' with FRs system. However having a bit of an understanding of the system often helps.

What specifically is being 'very poorly taught?' It's always interesting to know.

That one made me smile. I have yet to fly a simulator which is able to accurately simulate aircraft handling characteristics during a landing. Most of them don't even come close.

In a simulator you learn the basic dynamics of landing your aircraft. On the line you learn to land it properly.

Ok "in my last airline" so landing the a/c is taught on the basis of ' what works for you' is it? Go read the FCTM is your words of wisdom to all SFIs. Well its being read and that's how its taught. Now I'm pretty positive that not all the FOs that you fly with are poor at landing the aircraft and I'm even more sure that not all cadets have equally the same problem. However I am interested to know, what; in your humble opinion is being done incorrectly?

As for rotations, maybe you should read the FCTM. VR is the point where rotation is commenced, Not the point where the nose wheel is off the ground. VLOF is where the aircraft is airborne (usually between 3-4 secs) and the target pitch attitude is 15 degrees, not 17. It is taught in the sim to look outside, as this the initial step of having them spot the direction of yaw in the event of a V1 cut or EFATO.

If you are experiencing continual issues then I would certainly agree with galacticosh. It may be best to deal directly with the training department

As a current TRE in FR all I can say is SFIs are one of the best moves the airline has made. I can also say 'the jury was out' on the idea until we all had a sim session with them. Very knowledgeable and what they lack in experience they make up with their enthusiasim and professional approach.

They all tend to be senior Fos to start with and its not designed to be a one off. It is designed to be the first step to LTC and ultimately TRE. If your just in it for a go in the sim for a year thats not acceptable.

I have also done several command upgrades on SFIs and its a dawdle compared to non SFIs. Have not met one who has struggled at their own command training.

If you have a passion for training its a great way into the training dept and ultimately TRE. If not dont bother.

As an aside I did all my Boeing 737-800 training in Seattle with Boeing instructors. Our main instructor was ex USAF with his 90% of his carreer on F4 and retired with a spell on the Herc to avoid a desk job. Never flown in the civilian world and never flown a civil airliner in his life never mind the type he was teaching!! He seemed alright to me...................:D

Well in my medium sized base most LTs find there is a problem with rotation and it's D105s post that hits the nail on the head. He believes you cannot teach these aspects in the sim. I say that's wrong and that's the issue I have with some trainees. I put my two pennies worth thru the system too, don't worry about that! Never miss an opportunity to train hey?

Rotation and landing are all well taught at Ryanair in my opinion. If anyone is to blame for poor technique, it is the gash Captains who attempt to pass on their wisdom to newly qualified FOs. I've heard a thousand techniques and none of them work as well as the advice given in the FCTM and that given by line and sim trainers.

Callsign Kilo
Rotation is initiated at Vr. Rotation of the airplane not the action of pulling the control wheel back. Vlof occurs 3 secs later (that's the airplane not the nosewheels); 15-16' all engine attitude. Written for -600-900 from an empty airplane to a max gross weight one; from 30kts of HWC TO 15kts of TWC. I think all engine attitudes are variable by a couple of degrees or so. So let's say 14' to 20' in reality depending on scenario. The techniques of the FCTM should be practiced but the numbers are a ballpark. When the original FCTM came out it said liftoff attitude was 8.2' for F1 and also F5. We all knew it wasn't and low and behold it's since changed along with FR decision not to use F1 for takeoff if avoidable.