sure its unfortunate flying turbo props, why would anyone fly one other than to avoid paying for a Jet Rating. In reality no one employs people with turbo prop experience, other than to put them back on another turbo prop, turbo prop guys basically clog up the skyS:mad:

Exactly.
Jobs for newbies on PTLs are just as rare as on jets.
Jobs on piston shakers are, at least in Europe and in the Middle East, non-existent. :}

Not even mentioning the ridiculously low payment a B200, Dash-7 or LET 410 First Officer could expect to earn, but:
The hours you fly on a turboprop are absolutely worthless when applying for a job on a jet. Nobody's interested in that. The requirement for newjoiners is usually something like "500 hours flown on glass-cockpit with a mtow above 60 tons".
The IFR-hours you might have on a Seneca are not even worth logging! :\

Perspective from one who did not choose to pay to fly
 

In 2000 I sold a successful consulting business and, being in my early-50s, decided to start the career I had once pursued and still dreamed of – being a commercial pilot. In 1967 I was part of the original UAL program that guaranteed me an FE or FO TRAINING slot IF I completed my PPL & Instrument license within a year. UAL would lend me the money for the PPL & Instrument licenses and I would repay it during my first five years of UAL employment. I was almost ready to drop out of my junior year in college and join United when my new draft number came up single digit. United could not guarantee me a deferment, even if I was in their program, so I stayed in school and kept my deferment through 1969.

Thirty-some years later I again decided to follow my dream. My consulting business involved lots of financial analysis and project management so I applied those skills to the cost of gaining my flying licenses and the necessary flight time to have a realistic chance of flying as a FO with an commuter or regional airline. I talked to many flight schools, instructor pilots, commuter and freight company pilots, and personnel departments. During the 2002 time frame it became very obvious to me that the industry was changing and there was little likelihood of my gaining a first officer rating on even a turboprop commuter without a very large outlay of money and time. And, the 2nd scale pay rates for new FOs did not allow recapture of the training costs in any reasonable time frame.

It seemed obvious to me that I was going to have to spend $40,000 - $50,000 USD to get enough time to realistically apply for an FO position. It was obvious to me that I would have to fly a lot of dark and stormy nights, small commuters, and do a lot of instructing to get to even a turboprop commuter right hand seat. Pay-to-Fly was not yet an option, threat?, and it certainly would have been another negative in my calculations.

My advantage was I could easily afford to spend the money and the time but the disadvantage was I was old enough that the starry eyed optimism of my twenties was no longer present. In 2002 - 2003 I could not see how the economics of purchasing a commercial license and flight experience could result in a net gain over an 15-year career. I still wanted to be a commercial pilot but could not make financial sense of that dream. I still do not understand how ab-initio pilots who must pay all the way thru their TR and even into their FO time can expect to receive a positive economic result.

I do understand the desire to fly but the economics of starting out as a young, low hour, heavily indebted commercial pilot do not look positive from any rational economic analysis.

I still prefer an experienced turboprob F/O next to me in a jet than a VNAV pushing FMC programmer, not able to handfly a raw data 360 in IMC conditions.

yes. i can. however i wont.

This is a public forum nor do i know you from a hole in the ground.

Clanger,

Indeed it wont happen/shouldn't because that would limit the industry and its growth even more.


A TP will again require a TR. Which will leave either the cadet having to pay up for it, or the operator paying for it and bonding the cadet to the operation for 'X' period.

Also, we simply dont have the TP traffic in the UK (or indeed the EU) that would provide the kind of pilot numbers that are required just for current numbers to be maintained, let alone for considering growth.

Another caveat to that, is that TP aircraft are still in the public transport sector, and the difference in public transport operations between a TP with no more than 19 seats and say a Dash-8 with 78 seats is ?

Then there is the consideration put forward of a 1500 hrs minimum for pilots going into public transport operations.

Again, in the UK (and EU) we simply dont have the levels of non-public transport GA traffic that could ever provide for the number of pilots required to maintain even a marginal decline, let alone to maintain current numbers let alone industry growth.

if you are being paid for your services as a pilot, carrying passengers or not, you will be required to have a commercial ticket. and if you have a commercial ticket, then a mandated level of minimum hours to use that is going to have to lead to some possible routes..

you pay for the hours to rent an aircraft and beat up the sky to get to 1500 hours. so, again you're paying to fly again, and just how many trips to le' touquet can one person do ? then, it will likely take a decade of weekend flying to get to that level of hours, and with the cost, then your back to having an established career to pay for it... more issues here.

Next is there any evidence to say that someone who has built up 1500 hours of weekend flying and beating up the skies out of controlled airspace is any more/less safe than someone who started out in the right seat of a commercial transport aircraft at 300 or 400 hours ?

Instructing ? likewise. The UK (and the EU) doesnt have the number of flight schools that could ever hope to provide the numbers.

Besides, the operational costs for flights schools is prohibitive in the EU. Look at where the 'big' flight schools send their students, take for example OAA... Phonenix AZ. The weather is more consistent and its cheaper.

Now if you're throwing 500 hours of ME time as requirement, it becomes even more problematic.


The answer to the conundrum is actually quite simple. While the number of issues and sub-issues thrown into the mix add another layer to 'the onion', more legislation and tinkering with the FCL's wont change anything a jot. More to the point, it will make things worse. That is not where the answer is.

What will change things is a simple change to allow the industry to be competetive, nationally, regionally and internationally.

Equally important, we need to allow growth not place a stanglehold on growth.

Bruce,
As is often the case, I've just re-read my post and recognise that my last sentence probably comes across as sarcasm - I actually meant it in the literal sense....for many of the reasons you mention, limiting the route to "the airlines" in such a manner would be totally unworkable and fail to provide anything like a big enough stream of pilots to maintain the current fleets, let alone provide growth.

I don't know what the answer is, myself - but I do know that it's not really cricket to blame someone, anyone, for playing the hand that's dealt to them. I DO NOT advocate true P2F under any circumstances, but pretty much every single one of us thats gained the blue book in the last 2.5 years understands that if we can find a job at all, likely we'll be paying for at least the type rating, if not some form of line training as well.

As I think you said earlier, it's heartbreaking to see so many experienced crews treat the newbies with such contempt when actually it's the reality of the world that newly minted pilots are born into. Now i know many of the experienced crews will say that we should have known what we were getting ourselves into - well A) we did - at the time- but the subsequent economic slowdown was unprecedented in scale and vel[fer?]ocity which changed the landscape into which we emerged totally and B) Maybe so, but the same was true when you trained - but it didn't stop you did it? So why do you expect anyone else to act differently than you did?

My overall point however, was that I don't think many actually have a burning desire to fly jets and jets alone - it's the financial rewards that jets bring that cause that desire and further are necessary to provide any kind of economic sense to the investment, given the ever escalating cost of training.

Bruce - couldn't agree more.
As to the experience or otherwise built up in 1500 hours of GA flying, I think you're spot on. Some people may indeed do something useful in that time, but the majority do not seem to.
When I finished my fATPL training, I would have quite liked to have worked for a TP operator - but guess what? Very, very few of them wanted any pilots. The ones that did, offered pay that would literally barely cover the rent. So I took the un-welcome step of paying for a Self Sponsored TR with Ryanair. After tax relief and a VAT refund, the cost was somewhere North of £13,000. Certainly nowhere near the 30k that is the standard quote if you talk to the likes of G S Willy. Yes there was an initial period that was quite financially tough, but by the end of the first year I was already up on what I would have earned with Flybe, for example. So who is really paying to fly? Not me. People are very quick to criticise the "pay to fly culture" of some operators, but their schemes are no worse than the pittances being offered by some airlines that "pay for your type rating". We all pay one way or the other. And forever it shall be...

Guys this isn't hard to find. I lifted it straight from the Dragonair website.

So your assertions that T/P hours are completely useless are completely wrong.

So for a free Q400 type rating and a 3 year bond you'd have close to the required number of hours for Dragonair.

Not a bad investment considering it wont cost you anything.

Can someone push him down a cliff pleeehaase? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Batman
 

quote:
"yes. i can. however i wont."

Called your bluff then.

And here we are 'rounding on each other' all so some chav, with an ear ring, can get a subsidized holiday in alicante!

Quintessentially, it will prove nearly impossible to earn a realistic living performing a functions others will pay to do for fun! ;)

COMMAND? Does this just apply to TP Captains then

MIke Hammer.

Your post is a sobering and fascinating one - especially when taken in conjunction with several others. That airline managements appear not to value turboprop experience, and that that appears also to be backed up by the views of one or two on here, is appalling, if correct.

I think you are all explaining, rather more clearly than you might wish, one of the major challenges in the airline industry today and why we see what may be an increasing trend towards eincidents and accidents involving lack of what I would describe as basic 'situational awareness and basic airmanship. The sort of, frequently somewhat defensive, thinking that can only come from extensive real world experience.

Since the turboprop drivers are more often down in the dirty stuff and do more sectors, possibly in more challenging conditions on average, their experience ought to hold them in very good stead. That management seems not to understand that is worrying.
I think back to the old days of Air Anglia on the EAST Coast run in the UK. Those F27 pilots earned their pay and were super aircraft handlers, mostly becuase they had to be. Confidence inspiring on bad winter's nights as SLF.

I take nothing way from 'pure' jet pilots - the best are superb, and it has its major challenges too. However I strongly feel that the more areas of flying you experience and understand, the better a pilot you are likely to be.

To the original poster - good luck & apologies for hi-jacking the thread's original purpose. It sounds a difficult and expensive, high risk path you comtemplate.

:):):D:ok:And where are most of these Air Anglia pilots that are still working? For :rolleyes:Ryanair.:ok:. Best job in the world. :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::sad:

EGCC4284, yes.

G.S. Willy

no you just proved conclusively, you're an idiot.

1. you disregarded more than 50% of the post, namely this and

2. despite it being specifically pointed out to you, you cannot comprehend *plonk*

Chesty,

your post here :

and EGCC's comment of

Rather makes the point of "a free TR and a 3 year bond to dragoinair" being a moot point.

Dragonair isnt in the EU first off and if anything it supports the alternative position. Considering they specify 500 hours jet time or 1000 hours of command time in a TP. Indicates the difference in perspective. 500 hours in the right seat is equatable to 1000 hours of TP time in the left seat. go figure.

now if we consider mike hammer's assertion..

So if anything your assertion destroys the non-P2F route.

With offers out there of 500 hours P2F time, that would get you in the 'interested' pile of C.V.'s / Resumes in Dragonair recruitmentm yet mike hammer, with a number of years and hours of TP flying, with no sign of a captaincy on the horizon would get his C.V./Resume in the bin, even if he did have a visa to live and work in China, and converted his licence over with the associated cost implications.

when we consider tacoma's closing point..

clanger's point is driven home by his closing comment of:


so, going back to my original point in this thread. i am disgusted, flatly phyiscally disgusted by the snorting, guffawing and sanctimony of pilots who are flying the line, building seniority, that got a paid TR, back ibn the day, at the frankly sh!t career potential that the news have, having to cough up for a TR themselves, with a summer contract position and no guarantees.

Any airline, no matter how big its fleet can go Tango Uniform in a very short space of time, its happened before and it will happen again and anyone could find themselves back looking for a flight deck position.

Batman
 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation, search
Not to be confused with grandiose delusions.
Grandiosity is chiefly associated with narcissistic personality disorder, but also commonly features in manic or hypomanic episodes of bipolar disorder.[1]
It refers to an unrealistic sense of superiority, a sustained view of oneself as better than others that causes the narcissist to view other with disdain or as inferior. It also refers to a sense of uniqueness, the belief that few others have in common with oneself and that one can only be understood by a few or very special people.[2]
Grandiosity is distinct from grandiose delusions, in that the sufferer has insight into his loss of touch with reality (he is aware that his behavior is considered unusual).[citation needed]
[edit] Narcissistic criteria for grandiosity

The grandiosity section of the Diagnostic Interview for Narcissism (DIN) (Second edition) is as follows:[3]

1. The person exaggerates talents, capacity and achievements in an unrealistic way.
2. The person believes in her/his invulnerability or does not recognise his/her limitations.
3. The person has grandiose fantasies.
4. The person believes that he/she does not need other people.
5. The person regards himself/herself as unique or special when compared to other people.
6. The person regards himself/herself as generally superior to other people.
7. The person behaves self-centeredly and/or self-referentially.
8. The person appears or behaves in a boastful or pretentious way.

[edit]

I am sure you had a hard time choosing between Bruce Wayne, and Clark Kent when you decided what superhero you wanted to be :ok:

And you're calling Bruce Wayne crazy...?

I hope all you guys realise that most PROPER airlines monitor this site as well as facebook and all the other sites you can make an ass of yourself on.
Be smarter!

Biscuit74

Thank you for your comments. I agree wholeheartedly of course, and hope (probably in vain, alas) for the day when like minded people make their way back into airline management!

Correct. Real Airlines do not require new hires to pay for ratings.
That is purely a feature of the "bottom feeders"
Lurid colours mandatory (blue/ yellow or orange usually, though often including stars).

Bruce,

They don't specify 500 hours jet time OR 1000 t/p command time. It says...
Maybe my highlighting confused you but that means either 500 hours jet command time OR 1000 hours t/p command time.

I don't know who mike hammer works for but at my lot there are/were F/O's getting a command on the Q400 with 2000TT. So another year and a month on top of that and you have your 1000 hours command time, no bond and you didn't pay however many thousands of pounds to get a job. And I know Dragonair are not in the EU but I didn't say they were and nobody has really specified that have they?

I haven't destroyed the non P2F route in the slightest. I am merely pointing out that YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY TO GET A FLYING JOB with useful hours.

Do you really think that someone with "500 hours P2F time" will be considered above someone who has flown and proved themselves in regional flying in Europe with over a 3000 hours and command time? The answer to that is a resounding no by the way.

Chesty,

ok, appreciate your viewpoint, however you also have to consider that in certain cases management may be dumbasses, but their asses ain't dumb.

Taking the view of going off to 'XYZ' carrier for 3 years because of getting a free type rating out of it, and having to stick out three years before bumping off to another carrier with your TR, will do what exactly ?

As an operator, that is an expense they are going to have to carry. Not just the cost of TR, but the cost of advertising, interviewing, training, line checking, dealing with crewing issues etc etc over a large number of pilot every three years.

That cost has to be picked up somewhere. If using a carrier for a 'free' TR that cost in the operational overheads will have to be passed on to somewhere.

The passengers ?

That puts an overhead on the ticket price, which in comparison to another carrier that doesnt have a high pilot turnover getting their 'free' TR's, which then maken the operator un competetive in the market place. Bingo, the growth and expansion of the airline is now limited.

Taking the attitude of belting off to a carrier for a 'free' TR then bouncing out elsewhere is equally as responsible for the descent of T&C's.

Chesty

I too take your point. However the fact remains that, having taken the route I have taken, I do not qualify for the job in your example. Had I taken the career path my former training colleagues took which I outlined earlier, I would qualify by now. Notwithstanding, if I had, and I did, I probably wouldn't apply, I'd probably stay put flying new 737s at Ryanair. Additionally I would have had a higher salary for a greater number of years. That would seem to me to indicate what would have been a sound financial investment, had I not made the wrong decision all those years ago.

I'm not moaning, I have enjoyed all the flying I have done, flown with some highly skilled captains in challenging conditions and learned a great deal. I don't know if I would have learned these raw flying skills in pay to fly land, so the investment analysis is not as simple as I make it. However it remains true to say that I am not very saleable now, whereas with some 3000 jet hours I would be moreso.

knowing than most recruiters are pilots, I don't think they will be happy to hire guys who pay to play!

P2F CV go directly to the bin!!!:ouch:

yes, and I am RECRUITER for a big airline.

how can I spot them: guys who logged 500h exactly on the 320 or B737!

320 rider
Zero to "hero" in no time! Amazing! Recruiting after so little time. Based on your posts' a little hard to go along with?
I think a neck winding in your microsoft simworld would do you a power of good.
I am 100% opposed to the p2f Prosi**utes Btw.
Cheers

Bruce Wayne sounds like MO's right hand man and justifies his argument from an airline management point of view. NOT a pilots point of view. He seems to have forgotten the different models concerning LCC's and Service airlines.

When one has taken the P2F route you have justify yourself. It is without doubt that many pilots around the world blame this phenomenon on the degrading T&C's. Furthermore I have seen a degradation in the handling skills of the next generation of pilots. This is because the industry encourages dependency on automation. Those turbo prop boys get lots of it where as the P2F jet boys don't. Is the standard of pilots getting better. In my opinion the answer is no.

We are churning out pilots from the auto-flight factories and they are a product of their environment. after all you get what you pay for. And with the dog eat dog mentality of society. Standing up for what is morally correct is quite understandably thrown out of the window.

Do the young guns get treated badly P2F or non P2F well definitely not in any flight decks I have operated in.

"I hope all you guys realise that most PROPER airlines monitor this site as well as facebook and all the other sites you can make an ass of yourself on.
Be smarter!"


- This is very true indeed!