Let's make our Profession prestigious again
 

In order to save our profession, I suggest that we start with increasing the difficulty of the ATPL schooling. First thing to do is the elimination of the Question Bank. Any fool can nowadays learn the answers by heart and get a licence. Increase the difficulty level of several subjects, eg. Principles of flight, Performance, Meteorology and Aircraft General Knowledge. Put an Aerobatics course back in the flight-syllabus.
We also need to start to better assess potential ATPL students on their coordination, mathematics, physics etc. Just as happened 15 years ago.

The profession of an Airline pilot has always been seen as highly skilled and was regarded as prestigeous. over the last few years we have let this devellop into being glorified bus drivers. I say NO MORE.

In Spain, pilots with 1500h (unfrozen ATPL) are considered Engineers with a University Degree. This is our aim.

It's the free market, muchacho.

Make it a well paid profession again and you'll get good talent again.

My father made $400,000 a year (in today's dollars) to fly 747's. He had classmates with PhD's and JD's, and former astronauts.

Now , paywise, this job is one step above Walmart manager. With worse hours....

One can start by quit being a whore:mad:!

The way management see it is that pilots DONT fly the aircraft no more just monitor it, so why should they get paid $400,000 a year to "fly" it if a monkey can do it.

I think with technology getting better the skill of flying is dying out slowly,
the idea of an aerobatics course in the syllabus is a good idea and increases safety with unusaul attitude awareness.

When I was obtaining my ATPL my ground instructor was in a meeting with the CAA about the use of question banks. The question banks are not official there just questions people remember and they talk about it in the class room and some one has decided to make money out of it, so you cant stop it in a way, but instead have 10 different versions of the same question so people cant jsut remember A,B or C

Thats really nice. Just tell me, did you ever passed an JAA ATPL test? Its really challenging.

Well written. Im also captain for some years and never experienced RTO or OEI. But I know some problems which happened. It doesnt matter if someone is engineeur or something else. It is in man, what to do. You have to decide. No tests will prepare for that. I think that all pilots are captains or copilots. There can be only one thing that select this two categories: you have judgement or not.

Sorry, there is no "again". It has left the station. It is leaving every day as gray haired Captains get the Hose. It isn't the Industry, in case you haven't looked, it is the way we live, and the culture we tolerate. As we look to others to serve us, to make us wealthy, scold us, and pamper us, our decay as a living society marches on. Looking to an answers booklet explains without explaining. We, as a people, get what we want, as a group, and when the group loses its anchorage, we may as well sit and watch.

It is an inside job, asking for stricter rules after we allow a "C" grade to pass for an "A" is only demanding a continuation of average.

We must demand more of ourselves and our children from within, not look to others to design our journey. The left seat for me was an accomplishment in my top two or three. Mine.The "Group" feeds the hungry, it mustn't live our lives.

Prestige is a Lie. Look around at all the idiot "famous". That is notoriety, not prestige. One cannot fit a team into the left seat.

????!!!
 

What difference would it make if I could explain the Einsteins theory of relativity and all the knowledge that is below of it or at Wikipedia in full? I have been flying for 29 years already and I have never had to divert or perform a RTO just because I don't know math and so many other things. Don't pretend we are Gods like people used to believe we were. Get a license and then become a real pilot. Study your stuff, be disciplined, work hard , be smart, etc. I know many doctors that "study a lot" to get where they are. However, medical staff and institutions kill more people than a lousy ATPL holder. It is not what you know but how you use your knowledge.
The next text will help to explain my point. Im not a smart guy and with any degree under my belt :sad:

WHAT MAKES A PILOT "STREET SMART"

ABOUT FLYING ?

Original idea from United Airlines (Safetyliner)



What makes a pilot "street smart" about flying? By "street smart" we mean:

awareness of the essential aspects of flying; ability to know where and when to find

critical information; ability to detect and compensate for the mistakes of others;

ability to avoid the subtle traps and pitfalls found in the flying environment; and ability to

complete a 30-year career without any accidents or serious incidents. Thousands of

pilots do this each year - complete a very successful 30-year career without a single

incident or accident. Is this just luck, or are there specific identifiable reasons for these

superb records?



To find the answer to this question, Safetyliner conducted some years ago a telephone survey with selected pilots in the industry. Each pilot had at least 25 years of

experience. Our group included pilots from six countries and from airframe manufacturers, NASA test pilots, military pilots, UAL line pilots, Chief Pilots, Fleet Captains and instructors. In each case they posed the following

questions, and then let the interviewee respond as he or she saw fit.





1) What, in your opinion, makes a pilot "street smart" about flying?

2) To what do you attribute the fact that you have never had an accident?

3) Will you share with Safetyliner's readers your thoughts, techniques or strategies which

have helped you achieve this excellent safety record?

4) Are there any systems or factors which you consider more important than others?

5) Do you consciously monitor any particular areas to increase your awareness of critical

safety items?

6) If you were to advise a new, minimal experience Captain about how to avoid the pitfalls

of flying, what would you tell him or her? Safetyliner was surprised that the answers covered a very wide spectrum of topics; therefore, they grouped the responses into three categories :



· Attitude or Mind Set - a predisposition to do things in a certain way.

· Teamwork, Crew Coordination, and Crew Interaction.

· Awareness - individual techniques and strategies, specific items to monitor.

The responses are not ranked or put into any particular order and are presented as close to the original comment as possible. Many of the responses were very similar, in which case Safetyliner selected the most comprehensive comment.



ATTITUDE - MIND SET

• There's almost nothing that needs to be done in a hurry in an aircraft.

• Plan ahead for normal events and be prepared for unexpected contingencies.

• Pay attention to your sixth sense. If something feels wrong, it probably is.

• Develop an assertive attitude and openly communicate concerns to other crewmembers.

• Keep your options open -never become committed to a single course of action with a high degree of risk.

• The way to be safe is never to be comfortable.

• If you are getting rushed or overloaded, slow down even if it means delaying pushback, delaying takeoff or even holding.

• Flying must be the focus of your interest; you must want to do a good job. Stick to Standard Operating Procedures unless they are obviously inadequate.

• Return to basics if you become confused.

• Maintain a healthy level of suspicion.

• Even though pilots sometimes like to give the opposite impression, a true professional is

responsible, diligent and studious.

• Eliminate distractions and maintain an alert, vigilant mental state.

• Avoid complacency; the minute you think something won't hurt you - it will!

• Never go on a flight with a head full of problems; leave them on the ground or stay on the ground yourself.

• Be especially vigilant when everything is going well. For example, the difficult approaches like CRW, SAN, MDW, HKG, or poor students (if you instruct) won't hurt you since you are already alert and aware of the risk. You must resist the tendency to become complacent when everything looks normal.

• Be open minded to constructive criticism.

• Always fly in the same standard way regardless of whether it is a normal line flight, an enroute check, or a proficiency check.

• The common thread among all survivors is common sense.

• The things that get pilots in trouble are incorrect premises and fixation.

• Don't become complacent; sit on the edge of your seat; never take anything for granted; never become relaxed; question everything; stay alert.

• Never assume anything, but verify and cross-check all critical information.

• A pilot must be able to adapt; no two situations are the same.

TEAMWORK - CREW COORDINATION - CREW INTERACTION

• Share information with your crew. To the extent that you share information with them, they will share information with you and tell you if you have made a mistake.

• Don't try to do everything yourself.

• Use SOP's so everyone knows what to expect.

• Surprises are nice on birthdays and Christmas, but have no place in aviation. Let everyone know what you are thinking, planning, and doing.

• Always question; don't assume.

• The first thing the Captain should do is to mold the crew into a team.

• Briefings are very important; talk through what you are going to do; everyone should participate.

• Use your crew; frequently I have found another crewmember has just the information I need.

• Evaluate the people you fly with -to understand and compensate for their strengths and

weaknesses.

• Maintain redundancy in the cockpit. The pilot not flying must cross-check the actions of the pilot flying and bring discrepancies to his attention.

• Communication among the crew, and especially with ATC, is critical in today's saturated ATC system.

AWARENESS - TECHNIQUES - STRATEGIES



• It is important to have mentally prepared strategies to deal with critical operational situations. For example, if you lost an engine in a B-767 at 30 degrees West, where would you go? What if you were in a B-747?

• Flying safely is effectively managing change. The items which I monitor vary with whatever is changing. For example, before beginning to taxi, I think about the risks and problems associated with taxiing. Items like - receipt and dispatch procedures, maximum breakaway thrust, taxi route, wingtip clearances, avoiding runway incursions, etc. Before takeoff, I review the performancedata, RTO procedures, engine-out procedures, the departure route and terrain proximity. Any time something changes - and it can be a small item like a 4,000 ft altitude change or cross-feeding fuel -there are new risks which must be monitored and managed. My briefings also focus on whatever is changing so there will be total crew awareness.

• Pilots should give equal priority to landing or going around. Never assume that any approach will end in a landing.

• Know what data is driving the flight director bars and always monitor and believe the raw data.





• Awareness is the sum total of a lot of little things which vary with the phase of flight. For example, prior to taxiing, I review the taxi route in relation to the active runways; prior to taxiingonto the takeoff runway, I clear the approach path (one time in 38 years of flying there was an aircraft on a 1/4 mile final); prior to beginning descent, I review my fuel options; prior to landing I calculate where the glide slope intersects the runway and the length of remaining runway. These things are not taught in training - you must figure them out yourself.

• Detailed knowledge of the Flight Management System (FMS) is essential in all glass-cockpit aircraft.

• Develop a rule of thumb for validating V2 and VREF on every takeoff and landing.

• During overwater operations, fuel, or lack of it, can quickly limit your options and should thereforebe considered a critical system.

• Trouble can begin when the wheels touch the runway; yet everybody seems to relax then.

• Pay special attention to memorizing all of the FMS applications. It is important during critical phases of flight to be able to quickly get the information you need without thinking about how to do it.

• Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT), runway excursions, runway incursions, and high speed RTO's are the greatest safety risks in aviation today.

• Before each flight, I typically spend about one hour at home reviewing the route and airport information. If it is my first flight into an international airport, the time required will be 2-4 hours.

• During international operations, pay particular attention to the meticulous details of navigational procedures.

• Maintain a terrain awareness and a general knowledge of the topography over which you are flying.

• Commit SOP'S, limitations and emergency procedures to memory, to free up mental capacity to deal with unforeseen events - the more you know, the more time you will have.

• After each flight or proficiency check, I debrief myself and record items I want to change in a

notebook. The act of writing it down causes me to memorize the change.

• Know where you want to be, where you are, and where you are going.

• The Captain must always be able to recognize the onset of inattention in himself or his crew.

• You don't know what you don't know. The secret of a long, safe flying career is to reduce the "don't know" category as much as possible.

• Don't touch a switch without looking and knowing what, when, and why you want to move it.

• Be totally aware of what is around you, particularly during takeoff and landings.

• The very best pilots I have checked out have consistently demonstrated the ability to see the big picture and not become fixated on anything. Even during approaches in minimum weather conditions, they don't become "locked" on the gauges until inside the outer marker.

• It seems to me there are three levels of awareness: The first is the awareness which comes from completing a typical transition course - systems knowledge, SOP'S, normal, irregular, emergency procedures, and initial operating experience. Next is the awareness which comes from information from others - asking questions, inquiry, crew coordination, CLR, etc. Finally comes the awareness which comes from continually reading the books and manuals; figuring out the traps of flying; and developing personal strategies, techniques and habit patterns to deal with them. This third area is the most difficult and requires considerable personal commitment and discipline.

• You don't have time to make all of the mistakes, so you have to learn from others. I review all accidents and ask myself what would I have done? How could I have avoided the accident?

• If anything is out of the ordinary or if the aircraft is not performing the way you think it should, check it out.

• Develop effective listening skills including the ability to filter out lower priority information and return to it later.

• Listen to others and find out how they do things - then re-evaluate your own habit patterns.

• Always have both a plan and a contingency plan. For example, I review destination and

alternate airport weather an hour before landing and then calculate the required fuel from the primary holding fix to the runway and then to the alternate airport.

• If there is any doubt about an ATC clearance, I ask for confirmation from ATC.

CONCLUSIONS



We hope the above comments collectively present some insight into how a selected group of pilots have completed over 1,000 years of accident-free flying. We are not suggesting that everyone accomplish each of these techniques. The comments should be regarded as items which some pilots find useful.

It is very interesting to note that none of the responses involved the "stick and rudder" aspects of flying. From a safety perspective, this is right on target since it is hard to think of an accident in which the pilot couldn't fly the aircraft. While the engine-out on takeoff, engine-out approach to Category 11 minimums, engine-out missed approach and non-precision approach maneuvers may be the causes of most repeated items in proficiency checks, they are not the causes of most accidents. When accidents are classified as "pilot error," it is almost never because of a 11 stick-and-rudder" deficiency, but rather because of some event that perhaps could have been overcome with one or more of the techniques noted above.

Now is my turn to help and support those "stupid cadettes" Mhhhh sounds familiar. Oh ! I once was one of those. However, I have never forgotten the fact.

"We should take care not to make the intellect our god. It has , of course, powerful muscles, but no personality"
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"

A Einstein.

Make your conclusions.

Ok lets all get stuck in. Everybody starts from the begining again.

Despegue, in the event that you were able to restore the "prestige" (whatever that means ?) of pilots, I'd be interested to know how you would expect that to be manifested among the non-piloting fraternity ?

Excellent post Vonkluffen! I am going to save that in my pc. This should be shown in flight schools as part of the CRM/Air Safety lessons!

I beg to differ, mon frere. Try to make a monkey ditch an airplane full of people with all engines out due to bird strikes in a river with a virtually intact airframe and no serious injuries whatsoever. Try to make another monkey to land a fuel-exhausted A330 in a couple of islands in the North Atlantic after gliding for quite a significant amount of time and even circling and getting away with merely some blown tires. Or maybe a monkey could fly an hydraulic failed A300 with a wing on fire and land it with absolutely no damage? The list goes on forever...

The airplane may "fly itself" but it can't think for itself; that's when we come in. :ok:

Well said Vonkluffen! Very good post:ok::D

Ocampo,

I see your point indeed and I agree 100% and I think us pilots should get paid good money. But this is management we are talking about here!!

I was told that someone at Easyjet suggested that pilots should get pay matching there work..I.e you sit there and do nothing you get paid hardly anything.
In my honest opinion they way it is going, pilots are only there for when the !!!!! hits the fan not to fly the plane and thats what they get paid for.

It still amazes me that in the past 100 years we went from discovering powered flight to planes that fly themselfs with 840 pax on board. In another 100 years may be everyone will be flying something what happens then? taxi drivers charging 100 pound a journey! Or may be pilots will control the aircraft from the ground via satellite a bit like the 'predator'.

The Real Pros checklist!
 

Outstanding post Vonkluffen....that should be every professional pilot's mantra. I highlighted the quote above only because that defines when you have enough experience to be ready to move to the left hand seat.
The whole post is all you need to discuss in recurrent CRM training.

VONKLUFFEN

Thank You! Great post

Paolo

The problem is that it takes extraordinary circumstances for you guys to be able to show what a difference you make.

(Apologies for commenting. I am not a professional pilot, but I am an intelligent, professional, hard working young man who decided not to pursue a career in seat A0 beacuse of all the baggage that now comes with the job- quite relevant to the discussion :().

In my view Vonkluffen's post warrants a sticky in the crm forum. Read this first before posting..:ok:

As for the rest, I suppose it is a sign of the times. Nobody respects anybody anymore; policemen are attacked, doctors are disrespected, it is only natural that the public sees us as expendable and expensive ornaments as that is how many of them view the world as a whole; if it is not there to suit their immediate desires, it is surplus and disposable.

You get what you tolerate. In our world we have become a consumer driven society where everybody knows the price of everything and the value of nothing, as has been aptly stated before.
To reinstate respect for pilots you need to reinstate respect for everybody who works in a professional manner. Sadly, when our own managements regard us as mere "assets", if not liabilities as can be deducted from the phrase "Human Resources" and the short term cost-benefit view of those who nowadays run the companies, it will not happen in my lifetime and I have a fair number of years to go.

The best we can do is ensure we are always professional, so at least among ourselves we recognise professionalism and respect it. That also entails not speaking derogatively about others especially in public, for in dfoing so we confirm the negative image that is out there anyway. That does not mean that we cannot entertain some of those thoughts in private, but every pilot who is seen to act in what the public defines as less than professional conduct, does a disservice to the profession.

So if you want to be treated as the professional you are, be seen to act like the professional you are. And even then there is no guarantee, but at least you have the satisfaction of doing it right.

The mystique of aviation has gone and it won't come back. Everybody travels by air, everybody has Flight Simulator.

And as for being a profession, Doctors, Solicitors, Priests and Company Directors can sign your passport application as a reponsible member of the community, but can airline pilots ?

Is a British Airways CSD a Company Director ?

Lets face the airline business is a victim of it's own success....

If flying has lost its prestige then why are so many people aspiring to become pilots? If these same wannabes have spent even 5 minutes looking at some of the threads on this forum (which I am sure many many of them have), and the terms and conditions are so bad - what attracts them?

Both Airbus and Boeing forecast a doubling in the size of the world's commercial aircraft fleet in the next 20 years. In fact their forecasts have been bullish for the last 10 years. Who did/do you think is going to fly these aircraft? The same physics, science or math graduates who can go to the city of London and be millionaires by the age of 30 robbing their grannies of their pensions? Get real!!

If you have come into this business in the last 10 years thinking you were joining some exclusive club then frankly you are beyond saving.

The fact of the matter is there are still good flying jobs out there that pay a decent crack, you just have to work hard to get them. The fact that people don't trip overthemselves in awe at your god like abilities to is neither here nor there.

kms901
 

On the basis of being a Licenced aircraft maintenance engineer I sign passport applications and the authoritys are happy with this.
I have never tried to use my ATPL status for this.........perhaps I should with the next one!

Vonkluffen
 

Excellent post! I can't help noticing that the info originated with United. Perhaps some of those stalwart defenders of the captain in the offload incident might like to reconsider and take some of these messages on board? Consideration mixes better with competence than arrogance.

Errr, once again, I beg to differ, mon frere. As I said earlier; airplanes can fly themselves but they cannot think for themselves. I.e.: They can take commands, the ones YOU put in, but they will not give commands themselves.

They will not go: "Hmm, the wx report seems like there's going to be some heavy rainshowers with heavy crosswinds; I better ask somebody what's the wx like in my filed alternate. I should have a look at my fuel if I plan to deviate". See my point? Only a human, a PILOT, will do those things. Flying an airplane (read: Being a professional pilot) is not just one hand on the yoke and the other one on the throttles. It involves a sensational way of using your brain and all of your senses. And an airplane will not have that nowhere near (if ever!)

Sure automation might be a pilot's best friend if used correctly, but it can become quite rapidly in a pilot's worst enemy (see AA965 near Cali, Colombia, mid 1990's); and when that happens it's time to switch all the way back to basics as if one were all over again on flight schools. And that doesn't mean that :mad: has hit the fan; it's going to hit it if one lets the situation evolve. It takes a trained professional pilot (without disrespecting the AA965 pilots) to get the flight back on track: The airplane will not do it (and I think it will never do it) by itself.

Right on spot! There seems to be so-called pilots everywhere now...bloody PC "pilots"! You can use it to learn lots of stuff if it is used in a proper way, but nevertheless, it will never EVER be like flying a real airplane.

Best regards.

Ed

Ocampo,

I agree with what you are saying 100% I am not agreeing with the fact pilots should get paid hardly anything for there skill in flying aircraft.

Seeing as your from Colombia may be your not translating my comments correctly and getting the wrong end of the stick. But I understand if that is the case:)

The reason why I posted this is to stirr-up reactions.
This does seem to work...

Look, we are faced with pay-to-fly cadets, who hand money to fly commercially. Why is that? Simple: Because there is a vast overcapacity of young inexperienced pilots.
Make the entry into our profession harder and you will create a pilot shortage in the long-term, which is what we need to regain our conditions we had before. At the same time, we need to improve training and skill on the flightdeck. Captaincy seems to become a dying trade. Stick and rudder has to be taught from the first day at the flight academy as is captaincy. How can anyone say nowadays that gaining an ATPL is difficult?! What would they have done 10 years ago before the JAA examinations and the question-banks?! That was university level, but given four times as fast.
It are not only the Airlines who need to change their behaviour towards their Officers (and yes, that is what we are, some tend to forget it seems), but also the regulatory instances and ourselves.

Yes.

Who can countersign your application? : Directgov - Travel and transport

So can journalists.

And '(qualified) travel agents'...

If you want to have a prestigious, well paid and respected carreer then go on X-factor or get sillicone implants.

perhaps the answer ...
 

is for the bar to be replaced at it's previous level by the regulatory bodies.

The bar used to include minimum experience levels just to take the written exams for cpl issue, one was not allowed to take the ATPL exams unless you had at least 700 hours ... in other words, you had to go and do them all again so it was as well to know your subject.

Sorry if that offends some people, but the profession has to return to a quality driven model rather than a quantity driven one.

Not sure about "prestige" in the thread title, it ain't ego driven, fact is that the good should come through to the industry joining an airline flight deck as captains in training ... based on ability, aptitude, and a decent level of experience.

Just my thoughts, but I suspect I am not alone.

@ punk666
 

Okay mate, I think you're right; that may be a factor :)

On the "management" side of things, I agree with you (and some others). Companies (especially the big ones) treat us like we are not humans.

Here's an example:

Work/rest and duty assignment regulations in this country implies that you cannot have more than 5 consecutive assignments (days), except in one: the 6th assignment can only be as a "Tripadi" (additional crew member, I think it is known in English as dead-head, is that right?). So said company interprets this wrongly and they decided to put the dead-head anywhere between those 6 consecutive days (as a blank day) taking away one possible rest time and making pilots fly 6 consecutive days! Moreover, at the end of the month pilots could be right on the limit (90 hours) or even being at the limit before the month ends because they are doing 6 legs (each of 45 mins in average) on a single day. I don't know much about it, but it seems a bit excessive to me.

I remember I once heard a F/O friend of mine saying "they are kicking the tombstone, and one of these days the tombstone will fly and hit an airplane"

Not too long ago there was the mess in Europe with the work/rest regulations: Dead-tired.

As someone said earlier: Being a pilot these days seems to be above a Wal-Mart manager, but with worse hours.

Er, what? Isn't that like saying "experienced doctors are considered Solicitors with professional qualifications"?

[rant on]

I'm all for pilots gaining extra respect, but pilots and professional engineers do 2 very different jobs. I just dont see how 1500 hour pilots are qualified to do the things engineers can do (eg designing electronic circuits, buildings, mines, machines etc depending on discpline).

As an engineer, one of the things that really bugs me is people upsurping the title. The general public sees "sanitation engineers" (rubbish collectors) "sales engineers" (marketing) "Microsoft Certified Sysgtems Engineers" (sysadmins) etc etc. None of these people could solve a differential equation to save their lives.

Here's a link to an Australian syllabus: Course list for the Bachelor of Engineering - Courses and Programs - The University of Queensland, Australia - I'd imagine it isn't that different from a USA or European one. Please tell me how the ATPLs, which are certainly tricky, go into the same depth as a 4 year fulltime university program.

[rant off]

I wish you the best of luck increasing the status for your profession. In the process, please don't contribute to the decline of mine.

We can whinge about it all day (and we do) but at some stage you have to face facts and they are that our profession has changed (and it is a profession).


On restricting supply to improve T’s & C’s:

Errrr no -if you think this is going to improve your lot then think again!:=


Pilot numbers have ballooned. Why? Because so has air travel!! Not because of self-sponsored pilots or people buying type-ratings, etc, etc. Stop blaming things like this for your predicament because this and many of our other complaints are effects and not the cause. Much of this growth has come from LCC’s who operate on an entirely different philosophy. Have you not heard the term ‘New Model Airline’?:confused:


And what is more:


More passengers = more airlines = more aircraft = more jobs:)

There is one thing that trying school cannot equip new pilots with and that is experience. The target is the LHS so if you maintain appropriate experience requirements and standards to attain this (which all operators should) then this creates a barrier that really is worth something: experience cannot be bought. I fully appreciate that it is F/O salaries that are the worst affected by this contemporary state of affairs but you just have to keep in mind your long-term objective and find a job that gives you a clear path to your goal. And in reality this is really no different to any other profession. :ok:

Despegue - you clearly don't know much about modern pilot training. It's not easy, I don't care what you say. If you visited a modern integrated course you would see the dedication and hard work that goes into achieving a frozen ATPL. 6 months full time groundschool - followed by at least 12 months flying training - all unpaid ("Daddy's money" is a rarity in my experience). Would you do it? It is bloody hard work frankly. Yes there are question banks, but they do not help with all the exams. You still need hard work and study to achieve the results. Many people complete these courses with a background of financial and family problems and they do so in a thoroughly professional way. The flying training is also not easy and is not completed by a large number of people who are chopped at all stages of the training. You know as well as I do that passing a multi-IR is no mean feat especially when its done on some antiquated bucket with no modern equipment. THEN you have to find a job, again not easy. Many people do not get through sim-checks etc because their flying skills are simply not upto it. Once you have a job you have to pass the TR - with a background only on (at best) light twins, it is a major achievement to get through it with a first time pass and then complete line training.
Stop blaming other people for your own problems. The dedicated youngsters who aspire to be airline pilots should be applauded, not put down. You should be ashamed of yourself.

"If you want to have a prestigious, well paid and respected carreer then go on X-factor or get sillicone implants."

Fantastic Sea skimmer! The funniest yet most unfortunately true thing that I have read for a long time

close down PPrune:)

There are several aspects which contribute to worsening of our T&Cs. I`ll name a few; possibly too many airlines (not aircraft) competing for the flying public as to barely make somewhat of a profit; an abundance of young, aspiring pilots with a major lack of experience willing to pay good money to fly commercially; an almost complete automation of modern-day aircraft, reducing pilots to systems operators.

Money means everything in aviation. Ask anybody! But which way the cashflow is heading is another aspect. You an buy many things; a uniform, your lunch, charts, a typerating, commercial flight hours, etc etc. But there is one thing that cannot be bought, and that is experience:D. You can also ask yourself why fewer airlines consider a high experience level (flying) not to be much of an asset anymore, rather than paying to get in the front door:yuk:. But it seems times are changing again, perhaps for the better. The accidents and incidents in the US has brought attention to a few things which have been lacking the last 5-10 years. And to top it off, the Hudson River landing clearly shows how experience is a benefit, and why experienced pilots should be compensated accordingly.

To all up-and-comers; first thing is to get some experience. Do some instructing, air taxi, freight hauling at night, whatever it takes really, as long as you don`t cop out and buy yourself a job (yes, I know a lot of flight schools more than encourage you to do so). Think long term investment in your own well-being and porfessional career. And don`t forget to enjoy yourself when taking that road:ok:

superdimona

[QUOTE]Please tell me how the ATPLs, which are certainly tricky, go into the same depth as a 4 year fulltime university program./QUOTE]

Hmmmm. Good question.

Lets take the average degree programme which takes three years. In that time each year your "in college" for 7-8 months as you get 4-5 months holiday so lets consider that at 24 months.

Within that time you are not in lectures all day every day but im not going to remove that from the equation so we'll keep that at 24 months.

The average intergrated course lasts some 14-16 months with only about 3-4 weeks time off within that so lets average it 15 months which is some 9 months behind your 24 months.

Then you have to factor in the two years it takes to attain/unfreeze your ATPL with 1500hrs of flying and you are still learning. Don't forget within those two years you still face a career ending two medicals, four simulator checks, two line checks, SEP's and one LST.

Ok so within those 24 months you may have around 3 months holidays so we'll call that 21 months.

Now by my estimation thats 36 months of training and experience and more exams and tests that you can shake a stick at.

You as an engineer concentrate on one thing....engineering in what ever form it might take.

As a pilot we study a variety of subjects that leads to a whole ranging from the arts like law to the sciences including electrical mechanical and hydraulic engineering let alone psycological and physialogical matters like CRM etc etc etc. As one whit put it a pilot is a jack of all trades master of one

So is a fully issued ATPL the equivalent of a degree....who's to say. Certainly the lecturers at my flying college with engineering (electrical and aeronautical) degrees thought so.

Personally i think the Spanish have it just about right.

Don't get me wrong im not trying to degrade your career but i certainly don't think you have a FULL understanding of what it takes to get an ATPL issued. There is noting ostensibly difficult about the ATPL's but just an awful lot of stuff to learn.....i ended up with 14 full foolscap folders full of stuff to know.

As for the original subject i still think this career has the cachet from the responses i get when people ask us what i do for a living.

Hi Gone,

Please don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying that an aviation career takes less effort a college degree. I realise it's a hell of a lot of work to make it in this game. On the other hand I know of a few university courses that have the local nickname "Bachelor of Attendance" - because all you seem to need to do to get one is show up.

I was responding to the statement

An engineering degree is four years. Yes, you are not in lectures all day, however there are tutorials and labs to attend as well as various projects to complete. Naturally students have to study the theory as well (I don't know a single engineering student who honestly never studied). I don't see how anyone could squash 4 years worth of subjects into 2 years.

Medicals, simulator checks, and flight training qualify you to be a pilot - they have nothing whatsoever to do with being an engineer. If I spend 10 years as a carpenter, it won't help me be a good baker.

I think the vast majority of engineering programs make students 'branch out' rather then spend 100% of their time on the one specific area. Personally I'd guess I spent perhaps 35% of the time on my core major (electronics). The rest of the time got taken up with subjects on things like mathematics, project management, professional practice / legal issues, sustainability, physics, etc etc.

I never said it wasn't the equivalent of a degree - just that it certainly isn't the equivalent of an engineering degree. For instance I can't turn up to an airline and say "I'd like to apply for the left hand seat please, I'm only a 300 hour PPL, but I do have an engineering degree" - I'd get laughed out of the place.

I don't have a perfect idea of what's involved in an ATPL - only what I've read briefly here, and conversations I've had whilst flying privately.

I just went to my bookshelf and counted 21 textbooks from my university days. Earlier today I saw an advertisement on this site saying "0-ATPL in one year".

Making it as a professional pilot is a fantastic achievement. However I think anyone who things the academic side is comparable to a science/legal/engineering program is kidding themselves.

A bit self-referential
 

OK, a non-pilot and no flight sim either. I think you do have a prestigious job and furthermore you have the benefit of doing what I imagine you always dreamt of doing. There are an awful lot of worse jobs out there you know. Are you really so depressed about things and if so, with reason ? (PS one Albert Einstein ended up with a boring teaching job and wasn't rich either).

Degree vs ATPL
 

I think having both an ATPL and a degree in Aeronautical engineering I feel somewhat compelled to reply.

Aviation will not return to the "old days" for the forseeable future, why would it, its a simple case of supply and demand. Thats not say however, that we shouldnt strive do do our jobs as professionally as possible and you will be rewarded at what the market deems is a fair rate. Should you happen upon some unique skill set, or have a lucky break maybe you will earn more. However, anyone who started this career with the sole idea of achieving some "status" or making obscene amounts of money must have been misinformed.

With regards to the relative complexities of ATPL vs Degree, they arent the same. To try and compare the 2 is pointless, neither are easy and both require a considerable amount of work. It is only fair to say that they both demonstrate a similar level of learning.