On reflection Mister Geezer quite probably. :suspect: But smoke and fire and all that....:E

Well as time passes it will just take longer for one to get a command at Virgin. Most that have joined will have at least 3000-4000 hours. Those waiting for commands at Virgin at the moment have probably been there for around 8-9 years. That means that those ready for their command will probably have at least 9000 hrs. The argument of not having 'enough manual take-offs and landings to progress to command' does not seem to hold much weight when viewed in this context.

I am not at Virgin but I am using figures based on people I know who are there. Anyway I must shut up since this is a bmi/Flybe debate! :}

Snigs,


I'm ex-bacon ex-flybe and post merger the Flybe pilot just senior to me had a date of joining that was 5 1/2 years after mine. Also the Bacon guys were prohibited from bidding onto the 195 for some time. I'm not sure that you did that bad.

regards.

It would make sense to keep the jet fleet seniority apart from the prop fleet, imagine a high time dash guy bumping an experienced jet pilot from BMI..hmm glad its a simple equation.. done deal..my foot!

Point taken iggle piggle, but there was a strong feeling in the Flybe camp when the merger was progressing that if Flybe hadn't taken on BACon then it would have died, the crew would have been redundant and thus would have been at the bottom of any seniority list when they got their next job.

I'm not saying that this is fair or not, but should the same happen with the alleged BMI purchase, I guess that there would be similar murmurings. I think that is the point I'm trying to make.

Same thing happened when bmi bought BMED. I dropped 100 or so places down the seniority list, so what! This isn't a done deal and I can only see Flybe buying regional bits not Mainline. Flybe would be a fish out of water at LHR!!

If the merger involves just regional and Baby. What will happen to the Acft and Crews / Ops Staff, Engineers etc. Would Flybe order more Dash8's and 195's to replace the 145's and Boeings?

This is one of the worst aspects of working in aviation. It makes no sense for an experienced pilot to be below an inexperienced one when it comes to a shot at command, no matter when they joined a particular company. Promotion should be on merit, not length of service.

The path of this thread wanders almost anywhere but where it should.

Heathrow slots.

That's the only worthwhile part of bmi.

The current climate and the poor management and organisation of bmi are responsible for the present losses (and the losses of many years previous). All it needs is some competent management.

Buy the Heathrow concern, just for the slots, ditch the entire appaling management and huge army of paper shufflers and start again. Offer pilots new contracts from scratch. (It'd be a complete seniority reshuffle, lads, take it or leave it). Keep the aircraft fleet as is for now and trim and downsize where necessary. When the economy picks up, you're sat on a goldmine.

As for baby and regional, who needs to buy either? What are they, that can't be built up, in better form, from nothing (though its too late for baby anyway - bmi missed the boat years before baby was formed, whilst Easyjet and Ryanair saw a real business opportunity and now control the market, except in the odd grubby corner where baby hides).

No idea what Lufthansa's problem is, except that they signed a deal that looked great many years ago. They failed to take account of leaving bmi management in charge in the meantime and now its the shambles it was always inevitably going to end up as.

Which begs the conclusion, that unless someone pays through the nose for the LHR bit of the operation, LH aren't going to sell are they?

As for baby, its the only part of the group making any money so thats not an immediate priority in terms of stemming losses. Plus it can easily be merged with Germanwings.

Regional may or may not be attractive to Flybe, who knows?

What seems scandalous, is that 10 months through the calendar year, nothing seems to have changed at bmi in terms of dealing with the part of the business haemorrhaging cash...

Very true, but sadly there is not a great deal you can do about it and it won't change. Being employed in times like these is often something to be thankful for, irrespective of what seat you are in.

(That is coming from someone who is in the left seat and is facing the potential prospect of ending up in the right to get a job back in the UK when things pick up! :ok: )

A quick sale at fire damage prices just doesn't fit with DL mentality or previous acquisitions.

Likewise LHR slots are like rocking horse manure and I really can't see DL disposing of them without examining all the various options thoroughly.

Lastly, the bmi CEO presented DL with 3 year plans for the 3 bmi elements only yesterday. So a deal with Flybe is unlikely to have been done without digesting the plans presented.

mister geezer
 

Promotion should be on merit, not length of service


You are partly right. Merit is only one part of the equation. Length of Service ie loyalty should also be rewarded.

How would you like to be somewhere patiently waiting to amass hours and a command only to be pipped at the post by someone who joined last week with 500 hours more than you?

How, in this case, do you define merit? Hours? Types on licence? Education? Background?

Also, a lot of scope for cliques to promote their own eg Air Force giving their own guys a leg up, Aussies giving their own a leg up, ex-Oxford cadets giving their own a leg up, ex-BA guys etc............

Get the picture?

(Incidentally, I have nothing against any of the above groups - just using them as an example.)

I'm afraid, despite what many think, Seniority (LOS) is still the system least open to manipulation. Let's not forget that merit is still a very important part of the equation. Without it, Seniority doesn't normally work.

Slightly off thread,

Iggle Piggle, The merger worked for some ex Bacon guys, and not for others. Some of the ladies and gents that moved to flybe after SAM was shut as a Bacon base found themselves behind people on the seniority list that they were originally ahead of when they were still at Bacon.

Like most things what might be good for me, may not be good for you!

If the merger goes through, Good luck to all those at BMI. Flybe is not a bad place to work! I enjoyed it.

To be honest I hope this rumour is not true.

Flybe is a good company to work for. They are very good at what they do. If it is true then lets hope they don't deviate from the successful business model that we all know works very well. Don't get to big for your own boots.

Possible interesting times ahead!

CC99

Spot on Sweetie76, excellent post.

Funny news this morning on the german radio, its says that LH will take the 20% from SAS than having 100% of BMI.
Is that just to sell the whole thing in one?

On Bloomberg
 

See article here: Lufthansa to Buy Remaining 20% Stake in BMI From SAS (Update1) - Bloomberg.com


Regards
Exeng

How about:

Mainline - to Virgin
Regional - to Flybe
Baby - to Jet2

Clears the way for a slot sale to BA and sell off of Regional to Flybe.

Maybe this is an opportunity to throw the BMI Baby out with the BMI bath water!

Firestorm

Why don't you take just a moment to consider what you've written before you press the submit button :ugh:

Whilst it might be highly enjoyable to throw speculation around from the safety of stable employment you are adding to the already considerable concerns of pilots who's futures are by no means secure. We await the outcome of DL's deliberations on the way forward for the bmi group.

Having survived 2 redundancy episodes with bmi I can assure you it's not a fun time.

Perhaps I should give you some grace here - perhaps your posting is rooted in your own job insecurity. Whatever - just think a little deeper.

In a recent conversation with the ones that supposedly know, and I'm paraphrasing, but, if BMI Regional stopped flying and Flybe won all of the pax from all of the competing routes, then it would constitute a increase of pax of between 25% and 30%. Now that's a big difference in todays market. Surely that's got to be Flybe's primary target.

Flybe certainly don't want any more 145's, had enough trouble getting rid of the ex BACon ones!

From Lufthansa to Buy Remaining 20% Stake in BMI From SAS (Update1) - Bloomberg.com

It would seem from the above that no decision has been made. Why enter into a deal with SAS that is just going to cost you money? Indeed why buy SAS out if you are planning to pass bmi on?

I'm sure Flybe are considering their options in the same way DLH are. At the moment that is as far as it goes.

Totally agree Tail-take-off, some very irresponsible and down right insensitive posts on this forum. ALL speculative!

01/10/2009 SAS sells 20% in BMI to Lufthansa
Story SAS has held a 20% stake in the UK based British Midland PLC ("bmi"). According to the Core SAS strategy with focus on the Nordic home market this stake has been set out for divestment. LHBD Holding Ltd. ("LHBD") holds 80% of the shares in bmi since July 1 2009. LHBD is a UK-based company, in which Deutsche Lufthansa AG ("Lufthansa") holds a 35% stake.

On September 30 the SAS Group ("SAS") has reached an agreement with Lufthansa and LHBD to sell SAS 20% stake in bmi to LHBD. Under the terms of the agreement LHBD will acquire the 20 % stake for approximately GBP 19 million. Furthermore Deutsche Lufthansa AG will pay SAS another GBP 19 million for the cancellation of its rights resulting from the shareholder agreement dated 1999. In total SAS will receive a cash consideration of GBP 38m resulting in a capital gain of approx SEK 420m.

SAS will receive an additional payment from Lufthansa if further value in bmi can be realized within a period limited to 2 years.

Following the transaction, SAS will remain with a maximum exposure of GBP 19m within a period limited to 2 years, in case of material adverse financial development of bmi and lack of financial support from Lufthansa.

SAS has been a shareholder in bmi since 1989 and SAS will continue to cooperate with bmi through its Star Alliance membership.

Perhaps, and this is thinking way outside of the box, the reason for all this talk of selling bmi was to devalue the company so that a sale of the rest of bmi by SAS would be the lowest that DLH needed to pay. Why on earth would they want to buy the rest if they were after a quick sale! No make-ty no sense amigos!

Other companies, FLybe, BA, Virgin may not have wanted BMI if SAS still owned parts and had a say in the ops.
NOW BMI can be (sold) owned by one particular company without outside interests or comments from major shareholders!!

You don't have to talk a company down when the losses are put up in lights.

You bat for the company you work for, as you know you have more chance of staying in work
if the opposition goes down.

Stormin

Would you be ex bm by any chance?

You were luckier than I then Looker. I was particularly badly treated by BMI Baby at the last round of redundancies so hold no candle for the company or the management. The post was not rooted in job insecurity as I don't at present have one.

Firestorm

Sorry to hear about your situation. We can probably agree on the calibre of senior managers and SMB's exit strategy that have led us into the wilderness.