And so, in conclusion......
 

You've lost me there Mr Gusset.

You suggested possible casualties at AEU and then blamed the Union (Post #280)?

I KNOW that IALPA does not represent any AEU employees - so what are you trying to say?

As for me drawing other conclusions? What might they be? That you're an AEU pilot perhaps? Would that be an incorrect conclusion?

The Ska-bearbaiter

I'm still confused. This Ska-beerswiller chapie appears to be talking out of his wotsits.
I'm pretty certain that Astraeus Pilots were not involved in flying Aer Lingus Aircraft on Aer Lingus routes. Some were involved in Line Checking to Astraeus procedures. Astraeus A320 pilots were recruited for their own A320 operation.

I'm also (fairly ) certain that Astraeus are union affiliated.

It therefore follows, that the "loss" of the Aerlingus "contract" should have no material effect on Astraeus Pilots.

At least now, if Aer Lingus pilots sadly end up losing their jobs, they will have no-one left to blame, but themselves.

FFS JMC-man if you don't know anything about the issue please don't post. Astraeus pilots flew Aer Lingus (our) aircraft on our routes while we sat at home on reduced pay under the threat of redundancy. How simply can I put it to you and the several dullards who persist in almost willful stupidity in interpreting this union bust action as anything else. As to Astraeus, I know not and care less as to what this means for them. Thrive ,wither just step away from the Aer Lingus aircraft.

Absoultely, the AEU Pilots flew their own plus the AL airframes, the AEU training dept was beefed up for A320,It follows that it is more cost effective to operate several a/c rather than one, it also follows that the AEU A320 waiting for ad-hoc and effectively being a reserve to the schedule flights is not as attractive, both in terms of crew numbers and revenues. AEU crews must be "at risk". AEU is represented by the IPF on a voluntary basis, the IPF believe in "working with airlines", and unlike IALPA will not bang the drum and threaten stikes etc, the AL pilots were never " at risk". Why don't Al just bugger off back to Dublin? because the GTW Routes are profitable! Maybe AEU should start up out of Dublin. No, I don't work at AEU.

surely now AL has a clear run to make all and sundry redundant now. Having AEU on board meant under labour law they could'nt pull the pin.....they can now and will possibly decimate the no's and re hire under a new AL umbrella co.

Oh lord help us Gusset's got his knickers in a twist. Astraeus got 1 A320 (an old beater that had been parked up in Spain for some time) in order to get the type on its AOC, and then started recruiting for its "A320 fleet" all this in secret at the behest of Aer Lingus management. Then Kirky my little nipper Aer Lingus put our Belfast and Gatwick based A320's on Astraeus's AOC informed our pilots at those bases they were now Astreaus pilots and told the rest of us that as Aer Lingus now had fewer aircraft our jobs were surplus to requirements. Maybe Astraeus should start flying from Gatwick,as I say, I don't give a toss. IALPA in this instance is Aer Lingus pilots who work with,for & in Aer Lingus we have been that way since IALPA's foundation. The IPF thing sounds great and I look forward to seeing how they work with Astraeus in the coming months. Ps. this is not a victory dance lest you be mistaken we in Aer Lingus can now address our issues outside of the glare of imbecilic gaze, but I suspect not.

Indeed, and they might. But keep a lid on it will you suasdaguna we try not to give them ideas.

Long time listener, first time caller.

I think perhaps that an update's required in the "Breaking News":

History of Astraeus Airlines

Or have I missed something?

Many early posts on this thread seemed to big-up the AEU operation and especially its expansion - albeit at the expense of EI's own crews. Indeed, one poster in particular seems to champion the latter issue without shame whilst, at the same time asserting that AEU's pilots have a right to jobs. Call me old fashioned, but don't the people that hold those jobs already have first dibs on them?

Also, correspondents pleading in mitigation that AEU weren't the only show in town when it came to bidding for the AL contract merits a rethink. It says only one thing - AEU were the lowest bidders.

I can only assume that the EI crews that stand to be unemployed (effectively facing the same unemployment that AEU's have managed to avoid through their Company's "cuckoo" approach to creating job opportunities) are all single, have no debts and would actually welcome the opportunity to put their feet up - maybe watch a bit of daytime TV like Jeremy Kyle's show (if they can receive it in the South?). Maybe they could even appear on it only instead of "My father's my brother and we live with my sister-mother" as a topic for discussion, they could have "I forgave them for stealing my job - I realise it was market forces wot dunnit"

Finally - back to Astraeus' own website - can we expect to see a glowing testimonial from Aer Lingus' Management in due course? That begs a question: Was it a "Thanks, let's do lunch sometime - call my secretary" departure? Or was it a Sir Alan Sugar/Apprentice farewell?

Astraeus Airlines Testimonials

You make think you have the inside knowledge. All will be revealed next week and then this subject can be revisited. Lets wait and see eh, although I wouldn't be placing a big bet on your prediction ;)

I believe another airline tie up is to be announced with Aer Lingus very shortly in the form of another Irish Regional carrier. :ok:

Not that it will make a blind bit of difference to most, but ALL of the Airbus line pilots employed by Astraeus for this shambles had no idea that the contract involved Aer Lingus. It was sold as a 12-month agency contract and the actual contract turned out to be open-ended. There was even chat from HR about moving over to a full-time Astraeus contract after the initial contract period. In short, Astraeus fed them a load of bull:mad:!

Yes, you could argue that the airbus guys could of walked when the Aer Lingus announcement was made. But if you had no other offers on the table, and the alternative was unemployment, what would you do (honestly)? It's not hard to believe that most didn't have any other offers at the time, or even now for that matter.

Q. Exactly which pilots in Gatwick employed by Aer Lingus and members of IALPA are being made redundant? A. None

Q. Which group of pilots were breaking an IFALPA directive.....Aer Lingus? Nope

Quote from standbyils:

"AEU was never contracted to fly Union-busting flights to/from Dublin. This was never suggested by either party"

Maybe not verbally suggested, but nevertheless it was implicit - otherwise why the skullduggery in procuring (soliciting?) AEU's services? Sorry, Sir, but your line is disngenuous in the extreme.

LL - you've got to be either a. brave or b. stupid or c. management. Who else would have the ruddy nerve to post after standbyils' "full-stop" post?

c9m

Standby, there is no gloating whatsoever. Can you be so naive as to believe we don't know our own contracts or are you so arrogant as to believe you have spotted what we have missed. In either event it is not now nor has it ever been your business. Best of luck, have a long and rewarding career and if ever you do become established somewhere remember what you and your "professional" pals were complicit in trying to do to us.

MX16, I agree with your post and the sentiment behind it, I don't doubt you can understand where Aer Lingus pilots were coming from also.

Your own company 'did it to you'. AEU was just responding to a business opportunity, like several other companies were trying to do as well. It's business, get over it. Look to your own relationship with your own company now and try and see what you can do to rescue your employment opportunities. Stop transferring what you see as 'blame' to another company in another country. Who did this to you, and who is sharpening the broom? Having decided to take this direction, who 'changed their mind' and reneged on the contract? And why- it will be interesting to see this through to a conclusion. Chances are current AL pilots will be walking en masse long before AEU pilots.
Good luck if you think that FR is riding to the rescue. What do they need with 320s and vastly overpaid pilots? But that is their business. You lot don't seem to understand it was a standalone operation that impinged in no way on any AEU pilots. None of us knew what was going on, and had no interest in any way. That the operation is going will be unfelt as well. There are times when an industrial battle is lost. Your company is the one that is sticking it to you, and you know why. All this abuse aimed at merely a tool of your own Board's decision must be therapeutic, but really doesn't go any way to solving your problem. Don't waste your energy on me or AEU, you have your Stalingrad to face.

Something's rotten in Wicklow.....
 

First Clown:
A pestilence on him for a mad rogue! 'a pour'd a flagon
of Rhenish on my head once. This same skull, sir, was, sir,
Evan's skull, the King's jester.

Hamlet:
This? [Takes the skull]

First Clown:
E'en that.

Hamlet:
Alas, poor Evan! I knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite
jest, of most excellent fancy. He hath bore me on his back a
thousand times, and now how abhorr'd in my imagination it is!
My gorge rises at it.

Leo:
And how thine airline fails upon the short devices of treachery's tiniest son.
Hark now, on trickery's trick, for Albion's shore did a start renew, though star crossed lovers ne'er to be, the Shamrock's fortunes fail shorter still.

leo

I love your posts..no really...your full of sh1t but bloody funny

:ok:

No that's not right. It's 'Alas poor Yorick, I knew him well, Horatio: a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy: he hath borne me on his back a thousand times; and now, how .......'?

But 44 year old Eng Lit isn't really telling me what that has to do with it?

Twelth Night was much better. Really fancied the 17 year old twins who starred in it. They'll be grannies now.

Somewhere, over the Rainboe.....

Quote Rainboe:

"Your own company 'did it to you'. AEU was just responding to a business opportunity, like several other companies were trying to do as well. It's business, get over it. Look to your own relationship with your own company now and try and see what you can do to rescue your employment opportunities. Stop transferring what you see as 'blame' to another company in another country. Who did this to you, and who is sharpening the broom? Having decided to take this direction, who 'changed their mind' and reneged on the contract.
Good luck if you think that FR is riding to the rescue. What do they need with 320s and vastly overpaid pilots? But that is their business."

I get the impression that the pilots (whose jobs AEU's management sought to poach) are under no illusion as to the role their own gaffers played in this current scheme. As far as I can deduce, none of EI's cadre bear any malice or ill-will to the hapless individuals employed by AEU for the A320 operation. With that out of the way, your post raises some interesting points:


1. AEU must have been the lowest, cheapest bidder in town. Does that speak volumes?

2. Since your pedigree for posting suggests that you're "in the know" on just about any topic: can you tell everyone why EI "reneged on the contract?" Or are you speaking in your euphemistic tongue again and you meant "reneged" on the contract. Having spent circa €9m for a service I'd want full bang for my buck - if that's not mixing currencies. I anticipate that that question's rhetorical for you - you seem to read and ignore posts from anyone that expresses a contrary view. But seriously, I'm sure that many people would like to know (beyond standbyils' BGO) why EI/AEU came to part? And, finally,

3. Is xenophobia encouraged at AEU? Or is it just an anti-Irish thing? Maybe AEU's tri-graph should be better as BNP? That you regard the hallowed turf of England's green (and in some places at least) pleasant land as "another country" - :=. Nice one!

c9m

I hate people that can only talk in obscure riddles. I tend to not listen to them anymore....... Came to the conclusion they were autistic and living in their own world a little too much. I used to know great swathes of Shakespeare, but it's gone now- real life intervened. But i don't think even Shakespeare would understand the relevance of his prose to the Aer Lingus internal problems! My old dog had internal problems with her female bits. I think this one will be just as messy.
Early start, goodnight Sir!

Rainboe;

You just amaze me. I couldn't give a tupenny xxxx what happens in AEU. I think I've said my piece, but for you to say this....

"You lot don't seem to understand it was a standalone operation that impinged in no way on any AEU pilots. None of us knew what was going on, and had no interest in any way. That the operation is going will be unfelt as well."

....is surely somewhat erroneous.

I thought the unfortunate recent A320 recruits are now being laid off?

Surely that hurt must be felt by someone? Even if that hurt is just a little prick.

Good, well neither of us can give a toss what happens in either company now. The sad casualties are the temporary staff taken on because of an AL contract that AL reneged on. Whose fault is it now? Their aeroplanes are going. It's tragic. I would hope they expressed their displeasure with those at fault. A bizarre way to behave in business, and not AEU's problem any longer. Good luck with them, you're going to need it. But save your displeasure for where the blame lies for this fiasco- AEU could have happily kept its side of the bargain. The owner of the ball took it away for nefarious reasons. I shouldn't expect him to bounce it back to you.

Rainboe,

Happy Christmas. I do mean it as well.

You've had a tough time on here this year. What with justifying the new "industry standard terms and conditions" that your recently employed, soon to be unemployed colleagues should be grateful to receive.

And then there was the unseemly fight over pensions. Well, what ho, You sure did the right thing by taking that fat transfer value pot from B.A. (no, really, I'm quite respectful to you for that. You were never going to see your gilt edged trough eaten by anyone other than you I'm sure).

Not to mention of course your tacit acceptance and promotion of undermining fellow professionals.... all the while enjoying benefits way above the norm (paid more than your new "lucky" AEU colleagues and a pensioner to boot).


As a new year's resolution, I would look hard at who you are, what you've got and the advice you give others. It needs to be consistent.

Happy Christmas.:ugh:

Quote:

"AEU could have happily kept its side of the bargain. The owner of the ball took it away for nefarious reasons. I shouldn't expect him to bounce it back to you"

Do tell, what wicked scheme could EI have that would trump blowing €9m of shareholder's prospects on paying AEU's managament to pimp-out its pilots? Surely you should be asking your Company what other nefarious plans it has up its sleeves - so you don't get caught out like the poor guys that had no idea what the EI/AEU A320 contract was all about.

To everyone else, yes, I'm sorry - I shouldn't be devoting time and bandwidth to Tommy. Is it just me, or does LHC and Rainboe's relationship creep you out?

c9m

Curser, I'm sure there's life there but not as we know it! Now, I can't expand on the advanced knowledge that the forum members possess, however, one question o wise one..If AEU was contracted to train all the AL crews out of LGW why did they first have an agreement with Alteon, then IAGO as they had no trainers of their own.. seems a little short sighted..perhaps it was opportunistic as Rainboe suggests and not the web of deceit implied here, or maybe it was a plan to confuse the enemy.. In any event, Happy Christmas

It'll be almost certain that AEU has a clause in the contract which covers a break / breach of contract by EI, therein I'd hazard an educated guess that, one way or another, AEU will get some level of payment out of this from EI.

Hello again Puritan, yes, AL commissioned the contract, operable word being 'contract'. AEU merely responded to the contract, owing no duty or allegiance to AL pilots in Dublin or anywhere else. We live in a global village now, this is how business is contracted! Was it wrong for Swindon workers to start building Nissans, for Toyotas to be built in the UK? According to the logic of these viperous AL pilots, they should have declined these jobs as they are undermining jobs for Japanese car workers! And the Twinnings Tea jobs should not have migrated from Andover to East Europe! But they did, and AL was desperate to offload over-expensive pilot employment contracts to a foreign land to get out of their liability! Instead of asking why AEU did it (just another contract), you lot should be wondering have you overcooked the goose that was laying your golden egg (yes). It sounds like you are about to learn a lesson in economics, one of which is 'sustainable pay and contracts'. Your own company wanted you out- remember that. That's what this is all about. They have now decided to do things a different way. Who knows what the different way is- maybe it is surrender to you, but I think not. AEU kept to its side of the contract instigated by AL- we are very proud of doing our best to fulfill our contracts to the best of our ability. Take your beef to your own management, not here!

I do not have an insider's ear- I don't know the whys and wherefores, and have never been in the remotest way connected to any AL matters. I find the whole thing cynical and bizarre though. If you start something, you don't drop it after a couple of weeks. But it is all on contract anyway. AL will take its planes back, the staff that were taken on temporarily for this contract will not have any planes to fly. I have only spoken to them briefly once- all great chaps with enthusiasm, but AL has obviously had a better idea. You should fear the 'better idea', I suspect!

We're back on my pension, Stan? Very sad! Instead of discussing the point and your side of the argument, you resort to that as a way of 'demolishing' the opposition? It's private mate! I earned that honestly as part of my remuneration over 34 years, and contributed heavily in AVCs, and I'm still paying in. Nobody's business but mine (and the IR), and apparently a source of fascination for you! I could have put that money into property and business and could have been sitting on a goldmine, and nobody would have criticised private wealth and working on. But you have a curious fascination about it you just can't let go! I'm still on the right side of 60 and can hold a licence for another 5 years, so it is really none of your business what I chose to do! Let's drop the pension mate, shall we?

Kirk, I don't understand the significance of your point. AEU bid for and was awarded the contract by AL. With no experience whatsover of Airbus, and obviously no trainers, a new set-up was created to introduce the 320 into the fleet. We have one now as well as growing fleets of 737s and 757s, all crewed by highly enthusiastic (and experienced and loyal) pilots, and all planes devoted to specific contracts. So what were you saying?

Well after 34 years in BA, I have seen nothing in AEU training to make me think standards are any lower than there. In fact, with frequent audits by Star Alliance confirming it, Astraeus standards have come out better than some of the larger members of the Star Alliance group. Training up for AL a large number of new crew on a new type can't have been easy, but it has apparently been done to acceptable standards to the CAA, so any issues you have, see how far you can take them there!

It has been known for a long time the owner wanted Airbus. However, it was not as suitable for the owner's operation because of payload/range issues, and also the extreme weather that exists up there. The 737 is able to do over 5 hours with a full load and matches the market better. The Airbus talk was long before AL came anywhere near the scene, so there were no Machiavellian schemes going on. The whole AL thing was dropped in our laps with minimal notice, and I don't know how it was achieved so well given it was a new type never experienced before in the company.

If AL has changed its mind and has either surrendered or decided to tackle its problem a different way, then there is a parting of the ways. But AEU was fulfilling its side of the contract AL gave it, and is not due the critical comments from casualties, or soon to be casualties, in Ireland or elsewhere. Sort your problem out with your own company (or you may soon alternatively 'get sorted'), but AEU went into this contract to fulfill its terms. People are directing abuse at the easy target, rather than the cause of their trouble! Pity they don't have the courage to speak to those responsible in the same vein! That I would like to see! But they won't- far easier to sound off (anonymously) at a target that can't fire back, and isn't the one that pays you the vastly overinflated salaries (for now). Guys, you have a mystery battle coming up- save your energies!

Rainboe - weighed in the balance and found wanting. Good to see Astraeus are being kicked out of AL. Good news for all pilots with an interest in the future of the industry rather than an interest in themselves.

Well you are not involved! Let me guess, you are a loudmouth junior EJ pilot who knows how everything should be. Come back in 30 years Sonny! When you are shaving every day!

standbyils - as AEU management you will understandably resent the unpleasant debate that has taken place here and the unfavourable outcome to this contract. It turns out NSF and others were totally correct in their assertions and, despite personal abuse and misinformation from a number of contributors, their views have been shown to be completely correct. I am pleased that the vultures hovering out the barely-breathing carcass of Aer Lingus have been sent packing for a while. No doubt there will be many more twists of the knife but for the moment this is the only appropriate outcome. If Aer Lingus jobs are to go soon, then this contract will have nothing to do with it. All you did was attempt to form a cartel against the Irish unions - mercifully they saw what was happening and did something to stop it.

Round 2 to IALPA, and time for a quick breather. Very soon, the cry will go out, "Seconds out, Round 3". I hope that the IALPA boys will be well rested, as they are going to get a few well-placed head shots in the opening exchanges. I daresay they will get in a few body blows themselves. The good news is you chaps are not going to get the ringside seats you had hoped for - more pay per view in a back room somewhere.

I'm always chasing Rainboes...
 

Rainboe.....for a silver surfer you aint half acting like a petulant child:-

Did you get a sick note from matron excusing you from the CRM course whilst at BA?

Well as someone who IS involved let me reiterate what Alexander said.

What your company provided was a back of fag packet approach that may be good enough for you, but here at Aer Lingus, it just doesnt pass muster.

That they've been given their marching orders is good news for anyone with a vested interest in maintaining this industrys high standards that seem to matter less and less to the bean counters and the growing number of pilot 'mercenaries' out there who'll do anything for a buck.

And lets be clear here. Your company knew for months about the EI contract as did many of your fellow pilots and many others on this very thread - (heck even one of your new FO's was told of the EI connection at his interview in late summer),so just about everyone except you apparently? Either you're in denial or you've been spectatularly misinformed about the nature and extent of your company's 'nefarious dealings' with EI.

In short, perhaps you need to spend less time on Pprune (nearly 4000 posts in 4 years, thats got to be a record!) and more time taking an interest in whats ACTUALLY going on at your place of work.

Regards, as always,

The Skab-airbaiter

Well some of you really do have your heads in the clouds!
It was AL that went out touting for contracts to 'vulturise' its own staff! Why should that be? Ask yourselves why a company goes through all that to act against its own staff? AEU was not a vulture- more like one of those little pilot fish that accompanies sharks! And be aware, that shark is now turning on you. It's going to be interesting to see what comes next. But that shark is AL, and it knows what it has to do to survive, because nobody is going to cough up the money to featherbed you guys in your extraordinary contracts any longer. The Irish taxpayer has had enough, no investor will touch it. Good luck with MOL! I'm sure he will be happy to honour your deal! (not)

Rainboe Brite
 

.....Ah, right, I get it.....so that would make you an accomplice then!

....Accessory to the fact ...so you're happy with that being your valuable contribution to this industry....

Just wondering, did you even read my last post? Or are we co-existing on parallel threads?

The Skab-air baiter