Quite correct. To their credit [and it is the only one I am prepared to cede to them] I would suggest that Easy and Ryanair have pulled off the greatest marketing coup in modern times by persuading so many people to accept such mediocrity on such a massive scale.

Well between them they've carried just under 100 million passengers in the last 12 months . . . .that's an awful lot of people prepared to settle for mediocrity :rolleyes: , makes me wonder who the real mugs are out there . . . ?

LOCO fallacy
 

It's my experience that as judge says the public have been duped on a massive scale to think that loco's have actually made much of a dent on airline fare levels. Sure for a handful of people who don't want to take bags and plan their trips in advance you can buy tickets cheaper than ever but for the majority who like more than a change of underwear and a toothbrush when they travel and like to book at the drop of a hat I think fares are often extortionate.

My wife had the misfortune to need a ticket home from Cork to London at short notice the other week. Ryanair wanted £340 for ORK-STN for an adult and a 4 year old one way. I could fly them to New York on BA for that and they'd enjoy assigned seating a nice meal or two, a free bar and great service!

I booked them back Aer Lingus for £190 incidentally, but frankly I'd have paid anything not to put them on a Ryanair flight with their crews many of whom can't seem to understand English to comprehend ATC instructions (as I witnessed under London control the other night) and their use of poorly photocopied approach and departure plates plus the risk my wife would have ended up sitting seperately to our 4 year old.

Desk-pilot

Jepp plates
 

737 jock, I was speaking to an ex Ryan Capt the other day who is now with our outfit and it shocked me to hear that Ryan carry a set of original Jepps on the flight-deck wrapped in cellophane, if these are opened it is a tech log entry. Meanwhile the crew actually collect photocopied plates from the crewroom and according to him on several occasions later in the day the crew discovered either pages missing or inadequately photocopied.

Leaving aside the fact that I would imagine this is a breach of Jeppesen's copyright I am far more concerned at the thought that there are commercial aeroplanes flying around with pilots trying to fly approaches in adverse wx or at night without clear copies of the required plates.

You can say what you like, but to me if this is the case the CAA should be very concerned about it, as should passengers and crew as it is extremely poor practice, in fact I'm staggered it has been allowed to go on.

I know of no other airline other than Ryan currently doing this. My my own company - by no means a flag carrier - still provides full sets of original Jepps for each pilot to use and another set of additional diversion and alternates plates on the flight deck. All originals, all maintained, all present and correct.

Desk-pilot

From Seat1APlease: That's probably why BA will make a horrific loss this year and EZY will make a profit (despite the moronic fuel hedging).

Like a few earlier posts said, some people are quick to forget how expensive flying was until the mid-nineties. Want to do BRU-NCE for the weekend? That'll be 500 euros with Sabena please! Oh, that's OK I'll fly with someone else then.. Ah, hang on, there's isn't anybody else flying that route...

Flying around Europe has become MUCH cheaper and has remained equally safe. People confuse low cost and low fares. Low cost airlines have succeeded because they have managed to provide a service that is not very different from what the legacy carriers provide - at a much smaller price. Market forces. Capitalism. Competition. Supply and demand.

Question: what is the price of a STN-VCE ticket?
Answer: whatever the consumer is prepared to pay for it. If that price is too low, the airline goes bust.

Once again, low cost does not always mean 100% low fares on all tickets on all routes. Low cost means you're a competitive business. Driving down costs is the goal of all successful businesses, airlines or not.

P

Permafrost,

eeeeeeeeeer, that's a bit premature. We MIGHT make a profit seems more realistic. A profit will materialize IF market conditions stop declining during the summer, and if fuel prices remain low, wich they won't (they've already increased 80% from their lowest). That's a big IF, believe me.
BA's loss comes from loss of revenue from the high-end passenger, not from the low end side. The business traveler still flies BA (despite what AH says), but in economy rather than business class. The so called flight to value isn't as significant as we like to think.

However I do agree with the rest of your post.

Nope public are well aware of the price they pay as they click the pay button right at the time they pay.

Public hadn't a choice before and now they have and are making the choice.

Disagree entirely
 

Racedo,

The headline fares are in my view misleading, the fare is ramped up during the booking transaction by extras that most people can't do without and they're so far in by then they think ah bugger it and sometimes buy - that's why the websites are designed the way they are. It's misleading advertising and sharp practice - that's what it is.

Personally I'd like to see the actual travel cost with taxes and other surcharges enforced by law at the outset of the transaction. That would be a far more honest approach.

As many have pointed out in the national press of late the so called locos are not actually providing that good a deal, but they've convinced the public very effectively that they are in recent years.

I'm all for competition, I'm just for a bit of integrity with it!

Desk-pilot

It seems what is needed is an enforced Industry/Market standard that defines the charges, items and services that should be included in the headline fare. While that fare will not be available all the time to all pax at least then it clears up the issue of pax being 'mislead' or simply being to lazy to check what they are actually buying.

It would seem reasonable that a fair standard would be the air fare with taxes and charges, credit card fees per pax and a mention of any charges on hold baggage.

I agree I agree fully! Mind u its easy now, I add €80-90 to the original fare and usually I'm accurate to within €5. Its a fairly silly practice I feel at this stage as most know that the original price is totally misleading! As you say once into the process, some not all will just carry on and book! Another thing this parctice does is make it VERY time consuming to compare fares, as you need to go so far through the booking process to get close to the end price!
HOWEVER, it is STILL possible to get an absolute bargain once in a while.
But I would as most people just want this ridiculous pricing strategy to be replaced with a bottom line cost..maybe just bags and insurance as an add on, but spare me this "booking fee, bags, seat allocation, priority, credit card transaction, handling fee" FIASCO!
What the hell, an on-line booking fee?????Who came up with that piece of genius? Its just more of it, trying to claw back the price of a normal fare!
Wonder what's coming next? They 'll charge for a bag tag also?? Its not a long ways off before a cadet will pay to fly the first 200hrs on FR and EZY!

Eh? I'm out of my comfort zone here, but that story shouts "bar-room mythology".

It's the bit about "tech log entry" that really rings false.

And then there's the source of the story. Disgruntled ex-employee?

Still, could someone who works on a Ryanair flight deck comment?

If it's all really true, I apologise. If not, someone else needs to do that.

Degree of frustration
 

powermonkey

Being "web-jacked" by LCC websites lately ?
The degree of your frustration regarding the pricing strategies and marketing techniques of LCCs has obviously reached a level where your view for the big picture has been impaired quite dramatically. Now, if you don't like the way they sell their tickets, just don't book, take your "clean" legacy option and live long and prosper...
However, the fact, that this issue is obviously so important to you shows that you're as well looking for that bargain deal somewhere in the aviation swamp...
It's a war out there in the shark pond and not a barbie doll contest, so wake up, make your decision and stop whining here on pprune.

FI

Each to their own I suppose.

I regularly travel without hold baggage, I do not care where I sit and I have my own travel insurance.

Give or take a couple of quid the price quoted is the price I end up paying.

It frustrates me knowing that a margin in the seat price I am paying with a 'legacy' carrier goes towards a proportion of the fixed costs of the baggage loading, a sandwich/meal I do not want and allocated seating which makes the boarding process slower.

Desk-pilot, sorry cannot let that go unchallenged!

No it's NOT a tech log entry if the "brick" is broken into but there is a follow up form to hand in at base so that the integrity of the pack is checked for future flights. (Gosh if it was a Tech Log entry I wonder what the engineers would make of it!).

Been with said company for three years and never had (or heard of) one case of missing charts etc. There is a protocol for checking that all valid charts are complete prior to leaving the crew room.

As far as I am aware there is no breach of Copywright concerning Jeppesen - if there was I am sure Jeppesen would have acted long ago!

Your comments about pilots conducting approaches at night and/or in poor wx without clear copies of instrument approaches plates are factually untrue. (And I speak as one who is more senior in years who needs reading glasses when the lighting level is lower).

So there you are - all your comments are factually untrue so unsurprisingly there is no need for the CAA, passengers or crew to be "concerned".

Capot's comment on fuel is probably one of the most important in this thread. Not the price of fuel now, but the forward price at which the companies buy it is critical to their financial health.

As for the suggestion that things may get worse towards the winter - I think quite the opposite is the case.

Confidence is gradually returning to the markets plus anyone wanting a bargain will be buying their winter tickets now while the price is lower. Money paid in advance is money in the airlines' bank accounts early which adds a significant advantage to their balance sheets.

Photocopied charts
 

Fireflybob,

I am grateful to you for taking the time to reply with your experiences and I'm glad that you haven't experienced any problems with the photocopied charts. I can't say I like the idea but I suppose if they're properly done and cycles are updated then it would work. Obviously your experiences have been OK while my colleague had occasions when this was not the case. Having not been there myself I am in no position to argue either way. Out of interest do you use A4 or A5 format?

Brg,

Desk-pilot

Confidence is returning to the markets, and to the american household. However, in every single past recession, the improvement in the economy lags the improvement in the stock market by as much as 6 to 8 months. Which means the earliest the economy might start to recover is late autumn, beginning of the winter, perhaps even later. Therefore market conditions in Europe will continue to deteriorate at least through the summer. People will not fly, and if they do, will not spend on ancilliaries. Hence the pressure put on the workforce by both FR and EZY.:=

In my opinion the legacy carriers will benefit first from the upturn, especially on the long haul sector, as soon as the american and Chinese economies recover.

Finally, the cuts in investments and oil production from OPEC will force fuel prices back towards the 80 to 100$ mark as soon as the upturn is well established. If they are not careful, LCC, after a disastrous summer, and a mediocre winter, could be left with their pants down. This is a pessimistic scenario, but it is meant to counter the myth that the LCC are actually benefiting from the downturn. They are not. Nobody is.

Dear Flare Idle
"It's a war out there in the shark pond and not a barbie doll contest, so wake up, make your decision and stop whining here on pprune."

May I assure you that I do not whine and I have NOT or have I ever been web hijacked, I am not blind, I compare prices and pick and chose which one works out best for me at the time!
My original post was mainly concerned with the pilot, cabin crews and ground crews ( I use to also work on the ramp, at check-in and boarding gates so I do know how bad the pay considering the horrendous hours worked) terms and conditions being eroded to sustain the Lo Co model. As part of the thread I mentioned how the seemingly very low fares are not all that low and that new "extras" seem to crop up here and there because clearly the advertised prices and "original" low fares don't cut it anymore!

No whining, no moaning and have not been ripped off, but I see a trend and it's worth discussing! I am concerned about the industry NOT as a passenger which I am from time to time but as a pilot who has lost work and sees all his colleagues' ( in some legacy and some lo co carriers) terms and conditions being screwed up as a result!

THE FINAL POINT WAS, should fares go up, be advertised normaly and give the industry and the staff a chance to recover from this downward spiral!
Its worth discussing, I find it interesting to read people's views and I thank you for yours and everyone elses contributions to this topic! Stop being so grumpy!:)

Photocopied Charts
 

I am concerned. Anyone that has ever photocopied important documents and collated them in anger realises that this simply will not do. Anyone that has ever relied upon something photocopied and collated in anger by someone else with no fully engaging interest in using the copied documents realises this simply will not do. Your airline is taking the p.

As pilots you are supposed to select the charts yourselves. Photocopying erks are not trained and licensed for that task.

The fact that, 'protocol' or not, you take off with what you are given without having selected it yourselves, and furthermore on each flight are then dared to break the cellophane on the 'brick' each time you have a doubt, and the fact you refer to it as a brick not a full up to date set of charts worries me.

No wonder we see and hear about some of you getting lost on the ground.

Would you mind telling us about the (supposedly unofficial) protocol which supposedly guarantees a full set of all charts required?

Florida's Pilot Factory. I think the big thing is to inform and educate the flying public of who is exactly flying them through the busy skies for £19,99 plus taxes/charges/handling fees/etc. In the US there is (after the Buffalo NY accident) a lot more publicity about the p!ss poor pay, poor rosters, fatigue and now, pay for type ratings/training. The unions on this side of the Big Lake should assume a much more active role in this process. After all, what's wrong with informing the public?

Regarding the failure of Lo Co: NO, unfortunately it won't happen IMHO. Just like there will always be a market for crack addicted street hookers, as long as the gullible public won't mind to get ripped off being treated like cattle, and the gullible pilots won't mind getting shafted in flying max hours for less pay, there will always be Lo Cost/Class Aviation.

Low cost,as in Southwest(SWA),is just fine.THis is a remarkably good airline with unrivalled pilot loyalty and not bad levels of customer service.However,Low cost airlines like Ryanair/Easyjet are a blot on the landscape.I would love to seem them disappear but I wouldnt wish to see so many people lose their job even though their pilots(ryanair) seem to be rather gutless.
There are two objections to "airlines" like this:
a)Theyre incredibly naff.Naff rude people from check-in staff to cabin crew and maybe even the pilots themselves.In the case of Ryan,even their top management people are naff.Years ago,people would travel in comfort and style aboard the flying boats.They were treated like royalty by well brought-up,well-spoken and highly educated staff.Flying was a pleasure and a romantic adventure.Poor people knew their place and went by bus.The cabin crew you see on easyjet or ryan today belong on the jeremy kyle show.And so do the passengers.Naffness begets more naffness.If you want to do low-cost,thats fine,but maintain the standards.Lose the horrendous orange naff uniforms,the whiney outer-London common accents,the bacon baguettes and the interminable PA's on anything and everything from the latest Kylie perfume to God knows what.They even get the gash bags out and come down the aisle expecting you to clean the cabin for them.Re-introduce some style and class into flying.Is it a British thing?I think so as some of the low-cost European airlines,like Air Berlin and Vueling,are not naff at all.They dont shout into the PA mike or threaten you if you dont pay strict attention to the briefing.Theres much less of this "cabin crew are here for your safety only".Thats rot.Cabin crew are primarily there for customer-service.Ask SIA,they know a thing or too about it.It could be done so much better and wouldnt increase costs by all that much.What does it take to do a hot-towel service or do a proper bar service with peanuts.You want a G&T but theres no ice or lemon.Instead theres an over-cooked greasy bacon baguette and oranje juice.Its all so sloppy and unprofessional.If you sit down the back you're driven crazy by all the chav-chatter coming from behind the curtain.They dont get up and help people with their bags during boarding,just sit there chattering on in chav language.
b)Pilots are getting screwed by these low-cost tyrants.A pilot joining Ryan on a Brookfield contract has no protection whatsoever.If any problem arises(a good pilot will soon run into trouble at ryan),ryan can simply take you off the roster and you wont get paid.Young pilots are forced to buy their own ratings and even work free for the first 200 hours line flying.Even type-rated pilots are being bonded.Interviews and sim time are charged at the going rate.Jeppesen charts are photocopied which makes every flight illegal.Ryanair answers to the Irish CAA dont forget.Their pilots look like bus drivers in their yellow jackets trundling across the tarmac.And they sound like bus drivers when they take the time to welcome the passengers.Some of them dont even speak English.Pilots from just one generation back would not have let their profession get turned inside-out in such a thorough and degrading way.They had more backbone and self-respect.

All it needs is one good airline that doesnt charge an arm and a leg to start up and show everyone how its supposed to be done and dross like ryan/easyjet will be put out of business.An airline with a good level of customer service at a reasonable price(£99 one-way,£199 return) would work.The all-business class model failed and the legacy carriers do overcharge,so why hasnt someone tried this "halfway house" model instead?

Literally the most pointless post I have ever seen on PPRuNe.

The funniest thing about it is that you think people actually care what you think?

Back in your box.

Oh Caulfield, either pipe down, eat your bacon baguette and except the society you live in or go fly first class (and pay for it) and then tell everyone how elitist you are. Ryan is only the largest airline in Europe, and Easy the largest in the UK. Most people just want to get from A to B for the best value (whatever that means to them personally). If you want the romantic adventure, take the cruise ship!

Terrible punctuation and grammar. I am certain a bus driver could do better.

It's starting, FR just posted a full year loss of 169 million euros (the first since 20 years), and revised it's estimate for next year from 300 million profit to 200 million. Guess the Aer Lingus adventure wasn't such a good move after all... Too many aircraft, can't sell them etc etc.

And still MOL keeps bragging on about buying Lufthansa. Also, MOL hopes to slash fares 10 to 20% to maintain passenger traffic. I wonder how on earth is he going to achieve that...

I just hope FR doesn't bring the whole low cost model down with them.:rolleyes:

not at all, by purchasing aer lingus shares they have stopped anyone else from buying them, thus whether they are obtained by ryr or they go broke,(which is now the most likely outcome) ryr gets to dominate the irish market, money well spent either way.

For heaven's sake Doug...

So the thousands of very professional UK pilots flying for EZY, Ryan, Baby, etc are "gullible and don't mind getting shafted"? Anything else you would like to add from your pedestal? Is working for BA in the UK, Air France in France, etc. the ONLY option in your eyes? My pay is good, I fly 700 hours a year and I really enjoy 5-4-5-3.

What do you want to see? Communism? All airlines must pay the same exact salary, offer the same benefits and fly their crews the same amount of hours? Should an EZY TRE with 25 years jet experience (not me, btw) apply to BA to go back to the right seat for 15 years in order to lose is shameful "shafted and gullible status"?

P

What RYR, EZY and the other LoCos are trying to do is turn air travel into a commodity business. Base the price on supply and demand.

An unfortunate side effect from this is that crews are aslo being treated as a commodity by those airlines.

Yes, absolutely! The majority are young (20-30 year old) naive kids who will try to undermine any contract (seasonal commands...) and overbid any other pilot for hours/type ratings to get a job.

LoCo pilots must be the only ones that are actually proud to work maximum hours, pay for type ratings and get no benefits, private health care or pension to speak of and yet they are actually gullible enough to believe they're working for a career airline. They are even so gullible that they resist any positive momentum to change these mediocre T&C's for the better, firmly believing the propaganda that it will bankrupt the company. Hahaha!

So yes, gullible indeed! :8

Remember that LoCo is the 'communism' of aviation, offering the same bland cattle style transportation product for the masses (read: proletariate!). Aeroflot was probably a LoCo avant la lettre so to speak, where passengers had to haul their own suitcases across a rainy/snowy tarmac and where one had to bring his own (eatable!) food for the flight. Ironic isn't it, how communism meets capitalism? That is of course: communism for the employees and customers, and capitalism (read: bonuses!) for the managers... ;)

And you think you will, long term, get a decent salary package for offering such a product? Gullible! :8

Spot on! Just like Mc Donald's. Economies of scale...

I was going to give an extensive reply when I got to the bit about Lo-co being the "communism of aviation"... It so illogical and out of touch with reality there's not point arguing I'm afraid!

P

Well, you're the one who brought communism into it, not me.

I never ever said anything about all pilots having to earn equal wages or having to have equal T&C's.

My only point is that a lot of LoCo pilots allow themselves to be exploited and are thus dragging the entire industry down.

A recent attempt to book flights from Spain to Germany and Portugal favoured Lufthansa and TAP versus Easy/ Air Berlin and Ryanair. . . . . . Bu u u u u t, the prices offered by LH &TAP would NEVER have existed without the loco's pushing them down. I remember well in the mid 90's whilst working on a contract with no concessionary travel , having the choice of paying the equivalent of 500e for a return from CDG - BCN with Air Frog, or paying 500e return with Iberia, times have really changed, and unless you really book at the very last minute, or insist on travelling Fri night to Sun night you would now be unlucky 16 years later to pay any more than 150e (as long as you can accept BVA as being Paris, & GRO as being BCN . . .ish :rolleyes: )

doug what a .

Au contraire, Doug. . . . got it in one. :D Shame so many others don't. :ugh:

Studi,

That is one on the most logical postings that I have read within PPPuNe.

A breath of fresh air!