Sorry guys,

but i think that it is unfair what you are saying about lh pilots.

The jobs at lhi are "our" jobs. We have no upgrades, no progression, lh cargo has stored md11s.
The embraer, a replacement for the 737 fleet goes to air dolomiti, augsburg airways and cityline and there will be no longer upgrades with condor.....

The managment took the 5 lhi A319 from germanwings(full lh subsidary) and is cuttting our jobs. And you think it is unfair if lh tris and tres fail pilots during their application process?

In the usa, everybody that would apply for such a job would be called a scab!

And by the way...the reason why the older hlf pilots were not able to join lh has nothing to do with pilot skills or interpersonal reasons....

The reason is the company pension system of lh. You get a "übergangsversorgung" when you are 60 years old. If you are to old when you join you cannot accumalte enough credits and you would take away credits of your fellow pilots.

Cheers,

Seaduck

Absolutly agree with you, these are your a/c, your routes and of course your colour and so your jobs, no doubt.

But wouldnt it be fair, that you fight your war with your company and dont make good pilots a victim of your war?

I am with you in all this, but how could you ask for understanding if you dont care about the others?

Get your war done, if you win you have nothing to worry about, if you losse you might have selected out a lot of good pilots for LHITA, this is not the style of a major carrier.

You and me we know what is going on with LH, but the italian guys dont have a clue what happens in LH, they just see the chance to work for LH, which they consider as a very serious company, after all this !!!! with AZ.

This post could have obviously done only by a LH employee/pilot and either is bare sacarsm or just big big rubbish.
But for me its understandable that the above quote is probabely the thinking of most of the LH pilots. They are working in an ivory tower, on top with big KRANICH-blinders and so they have no clue about the REAL situation in the globalised airliners job market.
They have no yet realized that the big bubbel has burst. Hope they will get a chance to land in the real world:}

@EAM I agree. Unfortunately our Italian guys, after having experienced all the grande casino with AZ and the behaviour of some other airlines in their homecountry are highly disappointed and frustrated.
Now with the new born "LHI-star" most of them are just to much trustful, bona fide, and see LHI as a kind of a Messiah. But it is NOT.
They will experience and undergo a very painful and probabely mostly unsuccessful, selection process.

stop whining!
 

to A321 and all the other whiners and daydreamers...

I am sure there is some bloke out there who will do your job aswell for the half of the salary and please be nice to this guy. He only wants to survive!

The LH Mainline pilots are starting to fight against the erodication of OUR working enviroment. This has started way too late, but hope not too late.

I know you want my job, thats ok. I have no problem with that. But please dont have a problem if i want to keep mine and fight against anybody who wants to have a share of my pie. thats life, got a problem with that?

The management tries to cut the pie in many little crumbles..

The list is long and will continue

Lufthansa Italia
BMI
AUA
SWISS
Brussels Airlines
Jade Cargo
Aerologic
JetBlue
Condor Berlin
Condor
German Wings

want more?, i am sure there is more in the pipeline to come...

All these companies are an opportunity for pilots outside the KTV to get a job, thats fine with me, but they also are a opportunity for the management of LH:

1. to bypass the entry-requirements for LH Mainline
2. Pay less wages
3. Create jobs with a lower standart of life for its employes
4. install a divide and rule situation among the employees
5. try to get rid of KTV

Anybody who doesnt understand this, is living in a dreamworld. The management tries to cut costs and we try to earn our money. Thats the way the industry works. If you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen because its going to be a long, hot summer!

To all these comments about ivory towers and arrogant pilots, i have only one answer: Open your eyes! This is what the LH management wants. Little brave followers who all blow into the same horn. Fly for less money, shuts the F:mad:K up when it comes about T&C. All these puppets are happy to fly a jet, have an endless thankfullness to the company who gave them a chance. They also fear the dooming prognosis of the managemt of a bancrupcy looming around the corner if they are not willing to work for less.:ugh:
As long my company has assets to invest outside the core-business i dont think the S:mad:t is going to hit the N1. Where do you think this money comes from? LH is buying on airline after another and investing at the same time in its shortrange & cargo mainline as little as possible. At the same time its asking employees for sacrifices in salary and grounding A/C and starting the same operations with different subcarriers. (etc. LH Cargo / Aerologic)

The only clueless here is you A321! Because the scenario like above is the one guys like you dont understand, the big picture, the global play... Only because i still feel proud to fly and work for a company i dont have to shame a bit! What do you know about globalisation and the "real world outside" All you want is to get rid of the well paid, well trained, fat and happy KTV pilots. Are you a pilot or a managementpuppet? If you didnt make the DLR test, i feel sorry for you. You got a job in an A321 i assume, so be happy and make the best out of your options. I wish you all the best and good luck.

Look how well the other airlines in Germany treat their employees, notice any similarities in the development? If the KTV falls, its one of the last fortresses of good working conditions and i bet the remaining airlines will not pay better after that. All the smaller companies always orientate with the flag carriers. We all lose if the flag carriers lose.

We had some heated discussions with you EAM, and I do agree with you that its a foul play if guys get busted in a SIM Check because of politics. The LH management is playing a foul play also in Condor screenings, inviting DEC for selection but knowing at the same time that there are a lot of FOs who are way before them in the queu for upgrade, so there is no need for DEC. This is the same sh+t. Playing the pilots against each others.

Some of our checkers are very companymindend. Especially those who are involved in creating new subsidiaries of LH, because they are usually also having a management function. I wonder a little bit if these guys bust checkrides. It would be the vice versa what i would expect. I keep an ear open and check this out.

these are thoughts of a copilot after working for more than 10 years on the righthand seat. My CPT upgrade has moved well beyond the visible horizon. Wonder which comes first, gray hair, 40th birthday or an upgrade:}

good luck and good night

....and keep fighting for your job....:)

warmkiter
just to make my point more clear: you are free and welcome to fight for your jobs as long as you do it in a FAIR way.

Hi,

is there somebody who's already been to the second phase ? I wanted to know if the final interview is in italian or english. I'm going to the first phase on 27th july.
thanks

First: pass your first stage, then worry about the second.
Second: if you are not fluent in italian you should not apply.

May I also add to the discussion that within the next year or so, more than 300 cadets from the ab-initio training scheme will accumulate on a waiting list for Lufthansa mainline + Germanwings. Considering the current state of play, we can not be placed with Lufthansa Italia, Aerologic, Jade or any other LH spin-off. I hope one may understand now that this situation is perceived as (mildly speaking) paradox when on top of this new pilots are hired for what seaduck referred to as 'our jobs'.

So here's hoping that this summer will bring some clarity for us and all others currently seeking to join.

A LH student pilot

Ok student pilot, finish your training and then see what happens.

When we are talking about "our jobs" we are talking about pilots, not students.


warmkitter, I think we agree on most things, your jobs etc, fight for it.
But its, as you say, unfair to fail good pilots on the screening, but of course its unfair by LH to start a selection while still talking to the union.
Get an agreement, do a selection and then hire pilots, if able, but dont make others a victim of this war.
I wish you a lot of luck on your fight, but I guess you understand that I hope that it will be possible to hire pilots on LHITA, as you hope for the opposite.

Just remember, that most companies in italy pay much better than LH does,
so LHITA cant just pay peanuts, they have to pay almost the same like LH does.

What does exactly make those jobs "yours"?
LHITA will be an airline making its money in Italy, carrying mostly Italian people from\to Italian cities... why should they employ only German pilots?
Whats's the problem, the selection process? You want pilots to pass the DLR? Ok. Do you want them to pass the sim with "superior" LH standards? Ok. Do you want them to pass the tricky psycho games? That's fine. Fair enough, if you want to work for LH, you should undergo the same selection process as LH pilots, I can understand that.
What else make a German KTV worthier than these pilots? Only the fact that they applied for mainline LH when they still smell milk? What?
De facto pilots passing the selections didn't do nothing different than the great blonde German KTV pilots. What's the difference? The LH school?
Do you really thing the LH training standards are higher than, for example, AZ ones? Quite arrogant from you. And anyway passing the sim they proved to be good enough. Or not?
Maybe it's the German language? Or the German nationality? We are in Europe, wake up.
Tell me what. I really want to understand.

Hi dirk,

nobody thinks, that LH or LH Pilots are better. The point is, that LH managment is offering jobs on the one hand and cuts jobs on the other side inside the KTV.

That is the reason, why I said "our" jobs. LHI are jobs, that where former flown by LH mainline aircraft and LH mainline pilots.

Where is the problem that we are willing to fight for our jobs?

And by the way... "Just remember, that most companies in italy pay much better than LH does,
so LHITA cant just pay peanuts, they have to pay almost the same like LH does."
What is the name of these companies? At which italian airline is your initial salary more than 65000 euros and the final salary more than 200000 euros?

Cheers,

seaduck

Dear Dirk85
 

This has nothing to do with superior blond german superpilots,its nothing about training standarts, nothing about LH flightschool, nothing about AZ vs. LH standarts etc. DLR seems to be a traumatic issue for you, try to get over it!:}

1. you have no clue about the biz, if you want to join the conversation get informed about the big picture. i gave some hints. Here is another one, maybe you check what routes air dolomiti is flying. Some used to be B737 operated. MUC B737 is basicly phased out. No more training for CPT/FO on this type in any base. This will be the path LHITA will go too. Taking over RTEs covering south Europe. Rtes LH mainline used to operate. To be honest i am a little tired trying to explain what our "job" means. Wheather you get it or not. Maybe you ask a BA pilot about Openskies. He might try to get the message through. Maybe...

2. Keep your racist commets for your self, that is only populist BS. LH is employing regardless of nationality or color of hair.

to EAM: I hope that the italia pilots will push through T&C close to KTV. This will stop the eradication of payscales. Good luck!

Isn't the opposite simply the truth......?

AirOne, Alitalia, Eurofly, just to name 3 of them.
Friend of mine is FO on 744, 8 years with LH, makes about 4300€ net (guess you can confirm that) FO AirOne after 1 year makes about 4500€ net.

@dirk, its not about the standart, even if some of the LH guys think only a LH pilot is a good pilot, but its more about the contract, the KTV.
I guess if LH would hire the pilots on the KTV for a MXP base it would be OK.

i fully agree with you

there're already 4 pilots who succesfully passed all the screening and now are waiting for the contract,but they've been told that discussion with union are still in progress

I can agree with that, but this is not the case.
I don't remember of any LH plane flying the routes now operated by LHI. This is more like a new company (although with LH name on it) trying to serve a new market on new routes. They are not stealing anyone job, but creating new ones.
Not many similarities with Air Dolomiti.
They (LH) probably wouldn't have got all the support they are actually getting from local authorities without the promise to employ local people.

I'm not really sure of that. Those are "their" job... but I hope they will contraddict me.

Dear Dirk85
 

sorry to say, but this discussion is not your cup of tea. you are just completing your ATP, not employed by any airline and just too young to understand.

may i make a suggestion to you, what about if you just contribute as a silent follower and maybe when you have been working for a couple years in the industry and gained some experience review your opinions. even if some guys here have different opinions, most of us have a common goal: prevent any management from eradicating working conditions in any airline. this may sound strange to you, but YOU will profit from this, if you make the step and get employed and stay long enough in the industry.

i wish you good luck

warmkiter

your reply to dirk85 is not fair, as young and unexperienced he might be, he made a fair point and seems to me that you are trying to cut him off the discussion because you haven't got a decent reply.

You mentioned BA case on Openskies... let me explain why the british union (BALPA) dropped the case. It was illegal by EU law!!

If I understand correctly LH wants to create an italian company (Lufthansa Italia) which is fully owned by the german LH but registered in Italy, with an italian AOC, and there is not a single route that LH Italia is going to take over from LH mainline.
So this to me is creating a new market....not stealing jobs!!!

If LH Italia is actually recruiting to LH standards and the contract would be the same to LH mainline, where is the eradication of working conditions?

Is there any job redundancies coming up for LH pilots?
Is the company trying to cut your salary and degrade your working conditions?

If yes, then you should fight hard to get those jobs in LH Italia, otherwise if it is just a mere opportunity to employ young cadets and promote a few LH co-pilots, I think you guys are quite wrong.

Ricky

LH isn't doing very well lately and has been reducing capacity & aircraft (read here) and their pilots' position on the LH Italy issue is totally understandable.

Maybe the 6 aircraft now based in MXP are not flying LH mainline routes, but who can say they won't do it in the near future?
We have witnessed lots of similar examples in the past of the aviation industry.

While I feel sorry for those unemployed who hope for a job in LH Italy I am however 100% with the LH mainline guys who are doing everything they can to protect their own pilots first before setting up a new company and hiring people from outside the airline who would jump the seniority lists and accept lower T&C's.

ricky, its not really like that.
First, LH could put some a/c to MXP and start flying routes without creating LHITA, like they are doing now, no ital. AOC is needed.
And SEA would support this in the same way, as MXP is half empty and they are happy about any new flight.
Second they dont really create a neew company, they still sell the tickets as LH, with the name, the colour etc, its like buying a Mercedes produced by FIAT. :D

The 6 a/c have been taken from the LH fleet (GermanWings), plus at the moment there are no upgrades in LH and no pilots are hired in LH.

This is not about the standarts of LH, this is about contracts between LH and the union and its against the agreement they have with the union.

If they would create LHITA as a own company, flying the routes as LHITA and selling tickets as LHITA and not on the LH website, it would be different.
Sell LH, use LH rules and standarts.

But, for both sides LH and union, get you problems solved, now they are just playing unfair and the italian pilots are the victims.

The situation is already difficult in Italy, so we dont need LH to make it worse.

anybody knows the T/C as F/O and Capt?
;)

Thanks

Sonicguy

warmkitter, there is just one thing about "our jobs" "your jobs" you should be aware of, if LH gets an AOC for LHITA, which they would need to fly outside of the EU or the OpenSky, like Moscow, they have to hire pilots for LHITA on italian contracts and the pilots have to be registered as pilots in italy.
So to get "your job" you have to resign from LH and sign a contract of LHITA.

sorry EAM,

it seems to me that you are contraddicting yourself.
In one post you say that LH do not need to create a new company LH Italia.
In the next post you say that they need an italian AOC to operate certain routes if the expansion plan goes that way.

I believe that if LH management wants an italian AOC there must be some operational reason behind it, like those you just mentioned.

I heard that LH is grounding quite a few aircraft in Germany, 25 or so, this winter.
I believe that the creation of LH Italia will help LH to transfer some of the extra capacity into the Italian market, to avoid having an extra 6 a/c on the ground in Germany.
So LH Italia is not actually taking any active aircraft from LH mainline, but it is simply helping to transfer some extra capacity to a different market.
If there is no job or salary cut in the LH group I cannot see this as stealing jobs. Or do you actually believe that if LH Italia would have not been created the situation in LH mainline would be better, with more promotions and job openings?

If LH wants to enter the Italian market with an Italian AOC, they do need to be an equal opportunity employer by EU law. I do not believe that restricting the applications to German-speakers only would be welcome by the local government, or by the Italian CAA.

As I said before, I totally agree that the LH pilots should fight for those jobs created by their company if there is any redundancies or salary cuts planned for them.
Otherwise, if they are just looking to get those jobs because the LH mainline is suffering of over-capacity, thus reducing the job prospect for new cadets and not promoting first officers, I would not agree with them.

Ricky

ricky, sorry if I didnt make it clear, but at present LH does not need an italian AOC for the present network, not even for flights to the US they would need an ital. AOC.
But as they asked for the AOC, because they might plan other routs, they would need to employ pilots on an ital. contract.

But to answer you question, yes it will change when they employ the pilots on LHITA, just figure it out by yourself, 6 a/c in MXP are presently operated by LH crews, in the future these a/c should be operated by LHITA crews, so 6 a/c less for the LH pilots, less CPTs needed, less F/Os needed.

Yes, I understand that... my point is different: the underlying problem for LH being overcrewed is an excess capacity in LH mainline (exactly as any other carrier in the world), LH Italia is not going to affect the crew levels for Deutsche LH itself, but it would be a good opportunity for LH pilots to smooth their over-capacity problem.
for example: if LH is going to ground 25 a/c this winter (+ 6 a/c to LHI), I believe that without LH Italia it would ground 31 a/c, if you see what I mean.
So for LH management this is a great chance to use some extra capacity in the Italian market, and for LH pilots a good way to work more, employ more people or promote few captains.

The problem is that I do believe that no matter what LH is allowed to do with their own AOC, they need to provide equal opportunity in Italy otherwise the italian governement could oppose their expansion in MXP.
I work for easyJet and in my company we have many similar cases, despite we have an european AOC we were forced to employ french speaking cabin crew for our bases in CDG, ORY, LYS.
At the end of the day without government and authorities approval might be very hard for LH to go ahead with their italian subsidiary.
And if LH Italia project would be stopped, I do not think LH pilots would be any better off.

I hope my point is clearer now.

Ricky

Ricky

the only clear point is that you have no clue at all...

From your standpoint you can not have the necessary background knowledge and if you dont bother even to read the previous post then not even a godfather can help you.

Its absolutely rubbish, if you say that LHITA is not affecting crewlevels at mainline!

Our management shifts the shortrange traffic away from mainline and let it be flown where ever its done cheaper.

I did my first lineflight 10 years ago on the D-AILT, that plane went to German wings and is now operated by LHITA.

On this particular A/C you can see where our upgrades go. Away, gone, bye bye.... No shortrange planes, no upgrades. That should be so easy figure out that everybody understands...

We dont want that LHITA projekt is stopped, but done at the same base the mainline is done. If its not a cheap italian subsidiary, but a well paid job it will be a win/win for all the pilots.

First of all its a sign for the management that outflagging will not be the way to cut crewcosts and ofcourse all crews operating for LHITA will be paid equally good as the mainline.

There is no overcrew in LH mainline, we are doing about 20% overhours every month. The problem is that our careeroptions are vanishing away.

cheers

warmkiter, this is what you write:

I did my first lineflight 10 years ago on the D-AILT, that plane went to German wings and is now operated by LHITA.
On this particular A/C you can see where our upgrades go. Away, gone, bye bye.... No shortrange planes, no upgrades. That should be so easy figure out that everybody understands...

I believed I was talking with a professionist but it seems you lack some basic understanding in this business.

The company you are working for is leaving 25+ planes on the ground this winter (you know better than me the exact figure) because THEY DO NOT NEED THEM flying for LH.... you can call it over-capacity, credit crunch, how the hell you like....but no sectors flown means no crew requirement!!!!
An aeroplane on the ground needs as many pilot as an aeroplane sold to Africa = zero!!!

No shortrange planes - no upgrade.
Are you trying to say that the reason you are not getting upgrades is because you haven't got enough aeroplanes?
or maybe because they are being flown by cheaper pilots like:
Germanwings- same contract as LH , I understand
LH Italia - you don't even know what the contract is like because there is none.

It would be more honest from you to say that you have no idea how long it will take for you to get command, you are getting quite frustrated about that and you do not want to miss this LH Italia opportunity to speed things up.

And by the way... "Just remember, that most companies in italy pay much better than LH does,
so LHITA cant just pay peanuts, they have to pay almost the same like LH does."

And another good point to stop this BS management toy, called LHITA.

They think to operate with lesser costs than us KTV pilots. But what will happen if only italian pilots will steer those LHITA ships. With their striking mentallity???
Correct, they will strike forever to get the same payscheme.

What a big yoke this thing has become.

Good idea to spread the word of a recruitment ban.

to ricky
 

how long do you think it takes to start a projekt like LHITA? Was it two weeks ago when LH reduced capacities the first time?:} The planning of this projekt started years before, in a time where reduktion of mainline was no issue. Creditcrunch was not even a remote nightmare and bying AZ was discussed seriously.

Dont believe what management says, because they will always make the actual situation work in their arguments. You are right now like a puppet repeating some biz-mantras. This is not the Big Picture!

Business low - Great opportunity to use surplus capasities in a vacuum of competition in Italy:ugh:
Business high - Great opportunity to gain influence in a growing market in Italy:ugh:

You look this situation through a pinpoint hole and therefore see it very limited. Trust me, its way more complicated than you imagine. Its not about LHITA, the fire has started burning in so many different spots long time ago. This is very typical for our management. They generate a huge backlock of good governance, distrust and vaporise companyidentity and wonder later why the pilots strike.

In our companythere is right now a tremendous pressure to negotiate new conditions. Our management will need a lot of mass for trade ins in the negotiations. "Trade ins" means that all the Germanwings, Condor, Aerologic and LHITA positions may be sacrified later for a different cause.

One thing is for sure, all pilots involved in these politics will be just chessfigures in a game. Ask any external pilot been screened for a position in these new companies. They never know what is really going on. The poorest possible communication from a company claiming industry leadership.

Why dont we have upgrades within our contract? LH management is constantly breaking existing agreements like the 70seater rule. (You sure know what that is, dont you?) Its not that we have a lack of aeroplanes, they are just flown by somebody else.

if you try to explain the world to guys who are right in the middle of a battle, you have to wake up really early in the morning and GET INFORMED!

Good luck and good night

@warmduscher

Very well said;)

its warmkiter...:)

choroni in venezuela?

what about adicora?

Its funny, or better: rudiculous and outrageous to see warmkitter's reply to serious posts, like:

to Ricky
to Dirk85
to myself
As I wrote in one of my previous posts. Thump UP or DOWN is done by the psychologist (... if you fit in the LH-drawer or not...)
And obviously warmkitter is "a product" of this LH-psycholgical-screening. I am almost shure he PASSED the pschological test.

The way he tries to ban other opinions and verbally harrases other people opinions, gives a picture how they deal within LH with someone not fitting in the LH-mainstream thinking.

Never ever in pprune I saw somone doing this kind of replys like warmkitter did and is still doing :yuk:
Suggest to remove his posts as they are very, very close of having inhuman contents:mad:

don't get me wrong, warmkiter...

I whish you all the best in your battle to secure your jobs and conditions if they are going to be eroded, all the industry will benefit!

You are fighting a battle against movement of jobs proscpects and pilot capacity to other carriers like Condor, germanwings etc etc and now you brought LH Italia in the battleground as well.

The whole point is that this italian subsidiary will be a different animal because is a company operating in Italy on routes that so far are not in competition with Deutsche LH routes, including many domestic ones.

I can tell you from personal experience that if LH wants to gain market shares opening bases across european countries it does need to provide employment opportunities equally to all european citizens.

I am afraid a german company employing only or mostly german would not be welcome by the italian authorities, and this is the main reason why LH is asking for an italian AOC for the new subsidiary and registered the company in Italy.

Has anyone got any information on what can be expected from the DLR selection for LHITA? As I understand it, there will be a significant amount of computer based aptitude tests, a psych test in Italian and an English interview. Will there be a simcheck on the A319 as well?? If so, if anyone has any info I'd be very grateful for a PM.

Many thanks in advance.

40+ page long thread in Italian Forum

Ricky-G

I agree with you. As i said, i dont care if LH starts a new company, as long as its not a cheap loco-vehicle for circumnavigating our contract. If LH management thinks the AZ bankrupcy leaves a heard of desperate pilots in Italy willing to work for peanuts, i hope we all pilots will teach them a lesson.:}

A321

Get over of your failed entrytest for LH. Nobody takes you serious if you dont stop whining. There are many ways to fail the DLR test, its not only the psychostuff.... Every airline has its entrytests, only failed LH candidates seem to keep this trauma for life.

How would you like to call nonsense? Suboptimal information?:} I think if i call you clueless, its still actually quite nice. I consider your totally off topic little stings about DLR or the complete nonsense about the actual situation LH/LHITA also verbally and intellectually harassing. But also a bit funny:)

" If he would have kept his mouth shut, everybody would have believed he was a great thinker. Now everybody knows he is a fool."

ciao

Hello there.

I applied to LH Italia some weeks back, got a reply that I would have to speak italian. Now I was asked via email if I was still interrested, since they have dropped the italian speaking of the requirement list. I have 2000 F/O hours on the F50, with a well established SOP minded operator:) Does anyone have any info on if there is a holding pool or are they recruiting as we speak??

1975

1975, you should read the other posts, only very few pass the screening becuase the LH guys play bad tricks on the SIM.
So far there is no AOC and noone knows it they will ever hire non LH pilots.
So no rush.

I see, will be interresting to go through this process, if so will happen.