E190 Captain vs 767 FO
 

Hello guys! I'm here to hear your thoughts about 2 career paths that I can take in the near future. I've been flying for an airline overseas, I've flown the Dc-9-32, MD-80 and right now the E190, all of them as a first officer. I'm close to an upgrade (E190 captain), at the most, in a year.

But now I've been offered a position as a 767 FO for a cargo airline, long haul routes, flying to the US, better pay but an upgrade will take at least 5 to 6 years.

So please if anyone has any opinions on this, they are very welcome ;)

standard progression means you should go on the 767 (assuming you have no wife or kids to think about whilst away on a long haul trip). 5 to 6 years is not a long time. but also know that the E190 is a new and growing type as opposed to the 767 which is kind of, some might say, on its way out. If I were you .. E190 (medium jet command).

Opinion of old timer...
 

Hola Bluedog...
xxx
I fly for airlines since 1969, and about to retire in 3 months. Been through many airlines, and bankruptcies, and layoffs...
xxx
I would recommend you to seek a captain position first, rather than a transition to a bigger airplane as first officer, provided of course that a captain upgrade is in an "airliner", not some toy "commuter" airplane with an airline name painted on the fuselage. To my opinion, the E-190 is a perfect aircraft for a first command in airline service. The position would qualify you for the E-170 to E-195... and many of these airplanes are to be delivered.
xxx
In my career, I had to start as F/E (727 then 707), and followed the advice of going for F/O upgrade first (which I got on 727, then 707), and then to captain upgrade as soon as possible, which I quickly obtained on 727... I had no interest in being a F/O on "wide body" - as a F/O 747 position had been offered to me - instead, I took the captain position on 727...
xxx
Once I got the 4 stripes and the LH seat on 727... I remained captain from then on, going to the 707, then the DC8, then the 747... The old saying says "once a captain, always a captain", and never had any problem to obtain other captain assignments. To get positions on other airplanes in your career, coming out of the E-190, I do not know what would be next for you, but you very well could get a command on say, a B-787, or a A-340...Think that the world economy is not doing the best right now, especially you mentioning USA... being a captain will help you to secure continued employment.
xxx
If you look for extra income, I would suggest, you being a captain, thereafter, to seek instructor positions on the type aircraft you fly, this in classrooms, simulators, or line training. That in turn, refines your flying abilities through constant training practice or demonstrations, knowledge of the airplane, and gives you extra privileges, such choice of duty rosters... etc.
xxx
All the best - So, "captain" is your first priority - thereafter, the size of the paycheck...
:)
Happy contrails

Bluedog,

Couldn't agree more with BelArgUSA, definitely go for the command option it is the sensible route to go.

Still it's your decision for whichever route you go down.

Captain on the E190 will lead to captain........who knows!

M.

Go for the Command must better for the future. IN 5-6 years you have 4000 hours command instead of 4000 hours 767. And maybe the 767 operator will go bankrupt or who knows what will happen. Take the command. Good luck with your choice

PIC is the way to go. Good Lyck;)

decisions...
 

....an old flight chief told me once, "you only know you chose the right airline to work for, the day you pick up your first retirement cheque". If the company you currently work for is stable and you are high enough up on the seniority list to feel you have the chance of an upgrade soon, I would suggest staying put, at least until the economic downturn passes. Good luck with whichever decision you make;)

I have been in the business a long time and my advice is go for the command position. An airline can get a F/O straight out of flying school but to be a captain requires experience, the aircraft type is of secondary importance. Thats only my thoughts.

Yeah mate, as most replies, i would stick it out for the Command... PIC time is worth gold!!! Good luck.

Okay, so far... However what is the long term planning? A lot of guys feel stuck in single aisle aircraft but wish to fly long range. They report to have a hard time getting long range commands...

Who can plan long term in this game. Sounds like you would be better off as a F/O.

All these ole guys are right.

They ask the right questions:

"Which job offers best career?"
"What job offers best pay?"
"What aircraft suits you more?"

But the most important question you have to ask yourself is:

"Which job offers you the best life style?"

Dani

5 months ago I was in a similar situation and came to pprune for advice. I was given the oportunity to upgrade on the CRJ and also to go elsewhere as a 757 FO. In my case the CRJ upgrade and 757 new hire class where within 2 days of eachother. The CRJ paid WAY better than the 757 as well. I chose the upgrade and was advised by all to do so. Im glad I did! Im building valuable PIC time and have a very nice paycheck with a bright future.

In your case you say that you might upgrade in a year on the E190, but the 767 FO pay is better than the E190 CA pay. This is a much tougher decison... In aviaton you can not guarantee whats going to happen next year meaning that upgrade may not happen... Also the 767 money sounds tempting... Do your homework on each company and figure out what your ultimate lifestyle and career goals are.

Sorry I cannot offer better advice, but if the upgrade was guaranteed now, I'd do the E190 gig (provided it fit into your lifes master plan)!

Your Choice.
 

Bluedog190,

I'm going to dissagree with the majority of the guy's here and say go for the 767.

The reason why I dissagree is your command WILL COME eventually maybe sooner than you think and when it does come it will be on the 76.

Also consider this you're transitioning to widebody one more tick in the box.

If it doesn't work out you can always go back to the E-190 As a captain ( Remember the type is growing in numbers you will fit in nicely as a direct entry command from a Widebody with no training required).

One of the best Captains I ever flew with told me " If your'e a good first Officer You'll Make a Good Captain" I'm now a Captain I agree with that. This guy was awesome of his 12,000HRS TT on 737 9,000HRS were as Co-pilot it wasn't his fault there was simply no movement in the company he was in so he just stayed there. But I have to say he was definately super to fly with I learnt alot from him.

As pilot's we don't necessarily plan to be F/O's for our careers unfortunately it does happen I was stuck there once it wasn't my fault it was just the way things happend after finally getting my command and being a Capt for a few years i'm about to go back to being in the right seat for a heavy jet
thats fine with me.

If its a Command you want then you must take the opportunity when it comes.

If it is progression on to a Heavy Widebody Jet then you should take it. Get it on your ticket. NO ONE is gonna hire you as a Direct Entry Capt on a 76 if your'e a Capt on a E-190 in any case.

I think I understand your situation being frustrated with being an F/O for many years with the posibility of finally getting you chance to be Capt well my friend if you want it that bad then you must do it.

As for immediate Career progression good things come to those who wait... My advice is go to the 767.


Your Choice,


Good Luck,


Pete77

always go for the upgrade; you have a different perspective from the left seat; you have more options afterward; you don't know what will happen in 5 years; you can always find another job with some serious PIC time; it's also a natural progression; good luck

I would have to endorse the option of taking the command first. I had a similar situation back in 1987. I chose the single aisle command over widebody FO and, despite being through company bankruptcies, have kept have kept my left seat ever since, flying both the B744 and the A340.

Actually Bluedog only assumes that he'll get a command within a year... What if his company decides to stop further expansion and postpones introducing new aircraft to the fleet or even cutback services (which is not so unlikely in the face of an economic downturn and rising fuel costs), his upgrade course may well be canceled and he'll be an f/o for way more than a year. In the same time, he could have gained hours and seniority on a 767 and be living the longhaul lifestyle (if thats what he wants). Of course it could all be different...

No matter how you take it, it's a gamble... So do you really want a change in lifestyle and scenery? Then go for the 767... But if you are considering the move only because your new aircraft is bigger and weighing twice as much as your current one, stay where you are and enjoy your privileges as a high seniority f/o and future captain :ok:

Anyone experiences with getting an DEC on heavy jets with only medium type hours in the pocket?

How about ATR42 CDR vs 737 FO?
 

If the original poster doesn't mind, I'd like to 7500 this thread for a bit.

I've got about 5000TT with 3000PIC (2000 on T-props incl LTC hours) I got a job as a 737 FO 2 years ago. Despite healthy expansion at my company and the recommandation of the vast majority of the CDR's I fly with, I have been passed over for command due mostly to political reasons (i.e. guys with better connections have passed me over despite barely meeting the minimum legal requirements for command, and DEC's hired with no jet time).

As this situation will likely continue, I obviously have to make a move. I'm also in the enviable position of having a couple of options. I can go fly an A320 with a promised 6 month time to upgrade, or I can go on an ATR as DEC. Pay is better on the ATR, lifestyle would be about the same. I also have no idea how honest the A320 people are when they promise the upgrade.

So, what would you do?

Better connections?
 

ExMedevac. Maybe the first thing you might do is examine the truth of your claimed reasons for being passed over.

There seems to be common connection between those saying "take the command".......They are all very experienced pilots. I also say take the command!!!!
Sorry Pete77, your only 28 hahahaha.

Don't be in too much of a rush for widebody, unless you like 12 hours of staring into the darkness. You will be always ubcurrent and your flying skill deterioates. i had 10,000hrs when I start ULH and I find it hard to be proficiant to the level I was used as captain on 737 and bus jets and turbo props.

Some you young guys (20 some things).......listen to the advice from the many hours amongst these guys who have replied

Good luck

In general the advice to go for the left seat is good, however I would evaluate carefully the potential future of both companys involved.

Is the 767 operator well financed and established with solid growth potential ?
if not, the upgrade is the only choice, if it is, a foot in the door could be well worthwhile.

The same principle applies to the E 190 operator, and, can you move up to larger aircraft within this company (assuming this is your long term goal)

While Command time is invaluable, rarely will it allow you to move to a new company and stay in that left seat.

Some of the previous posters (rightfully) endorse upgrading as soon as possible as they did in their Companys, however they were able to stay within that same company and move up to larger aircraft

Worth considering..

Top of the ladder
 

The question about whether to upgrade or transition is a difficult one. Having been in a similar situation and having taken the command. The company i worked for had no further options for me I was top of the ladder.I flew the biggest aircraft they had. Many here talk about their careers with progression through the fleets as a captain, this may not be an option if the company he takes the command with doesn't have that sort of fleet. While the captain time is invaluable he may find himself with a couple thousand hours command time and still having to go back to the right seat with another company to "progress". This would put him a few years behind had he just gone anyways. Especially in the US where direct entry captains are very rare. Food for thought?

Can you give us a hint on where you fly the E190? Even a country? What about the Cargo 767? It might help a bit on what we think you could do. It sounds like Aero Republica in Colombia, and you could be flying for Tampa Cargo or one of the LAN Cargos.

Old Fella

I am reasonably certain of that truth and it has been confirmed to me by a couple of the instructors. If there is no one else and there is a dire need, I will be looked at, otherwise, no. In the part of the world I'm in, this is as commonplace as hello. They both said I would have a better shot somewhere else. The decision to leave has been made, the only question is where to.

Lo bueno es que vas a salir de tu compañia. Ya veras el cambio que hace solamente volar en otro lugar.

Como va todo por alla?

I'm on the 767, I recommend staying for your command, especially as the 76 is for a cargo airline.

However we all have different motivations and lifestyles, just for me, I wish I stayed small.

I'm also in a situation where I have to decide about my future, I could stay on the CRJ as F/O for the next years (I've already 6 years experience on the CRJ) or I could go as CAPT on the DO328 (for a small regional airline) or a CJ (for a small executive company flying most of the times for the owner)

What would you do?
I like the CRJ, but I don't want to fly another 6 years as a F/O on this airplane!

BD190, ask yourself why did you even applied for the 767 job in the first place?

You're probably like me, fed up with 4 sector, min rest, max duty days, and want to expand your horizon.

I don't know why everybody is so hung up about 4 stripes. I agree with Dani and Pete77: it's all about lifestyle. You only live once, so you might as well enjoy it!

I left a regional low cost jet company (with outlook on a command) but where I was absolutely miserable, to fly long haul cargo and my life has improved by 100%! :)

Regarding job security: who knows... Waiting a year for a command (especially in today's uncertain economic times!) is a mighty long time! Building on that command and having a sensible amount of experience will take another year. In aviation two years are an eternity!

Regarding the "once a captain, always a captain" statement, that all depends IMHO. Sure, you can keep your command and become a direct entry captain for some regional or low cost company, but remember that most companies that take on DEC's are usually not the best companies where you want to stay until retirement. As a captain you'll be stuck in regional or low cost companies for your entire career, unless the E190 company you work for now expands into the long haul/wide body market and you have the appropriate seniority to stay in the LHS. I met plenty of burned out captains in their 40's and 50's in my last outfit who were stuck in the LHS because they did not want to take a pay cut and move to a RHS for a decent outfit.

"Captain on the E190 will lead to captain........who knows!" From captain E190 to captain on, say. captain on a wide body? Hahaha, forget it! You will have to join the seniority list of that wide body outfit as an FO, just like everybody else, so if that's your goal you might as well make that move as quickly as possible.

Remember, these quickie command companies usually have a major price tag attached: lack of lifestyle and lack of human terms and conditions!

Carpe diem!

I agree with Tank2, it totally depends on your end goal. If you want to be a Commander in a decent company flying widebody then you're going to have to down grade to F/O (or even S/O) again anyway so why postpone it?
If however you're happy to be flying short haul and jumping around companies who take DECs then take the quick command.
IMHO the command on the E190 would be a far better experience but will it give you the lifestyle and type of flying you want?