Astraeus pilots fly for nothing
 

Is it true that Astreaus actually charges some of its junior FO's to fly their aircraft??:=

Morning old chap

Technically, these boys and girls are paying for line training, getting those 100/300/500 hours on type, whether it is worth anything? The verdict is still open; however, some do get hired by astreaus or other players following the conclusion.

That is outrageous.

I hate to mention minimum wage regulations, but this is a scandal.

Are any of the management 'employed' on the same basis as a result of the 'experience they are receiving?'

They are not employees, but pilots paying for 'training' services. As I understand it.

Okay, but are they operating or 'training' on public transport flights?

... dont you think it would be a bit expensive to only have training on non-revenue flights ? i think you will find that most airlines train new recruits, whether self funded or not, on commercial flights ... there is no other way around this. the difference with Astraeus is that, as mentioned earlier, the trainees are not employees.

The 'difference' is not that simple.

Correct, they are not employees. They are pilots paying to operate commercially which in my opinion is even worse than self funding type ratings and yet another nail in the coffin of this industry's so-caled professionialism.

It's disgusting.

Because of less than satisfactory experience with pilots who,d gained some hours on type on "pay for line training schemes" all pilots joining my airline with less than 500 hours on type have to have a full type rating course irrespective of holding a rating.This makes paying for line experience a waste of time.VBR Stampe

Personally I think this practice of pilots paying for hours on airliners engaged in commercial operations should be stopped by legal means. It is blatantly NOT "line training", they are sitting in the right hand seat as an acting first officer and should be getting paid at least minimum wage. Also it means that an airline involved in this type of exploitation will not have a decent level of experience in the RHS due to constant turnover of F/O's.

Another consideration is that you have a potential situation where you have a first officer who is not up to standard but sits there because of their wallet and it creates an unfair market balance as the airline has reduced their crew wage bill considerably compared to their competitors.

Also worth noting that one of the airlines in Europe who operate this "scheme" have had a fatal accident with a large loss in life in the last 12 months.

Rant over, I think I've said this numerous times on here and the wannabes thread before.

That doesn't make it right. Will paying for line training be an accepted practice in twenty years time? You only have to look at Ryanair to see where that has led, the way the management perceive the crew. O'Leary knows there'll always be someone prepared to undercut their 'colleagues'.


Would you have said paying for a type rating was wrong twenty years ago? I suspect you would.

Why not? They are undermining the rest of us just as those who first paid for their type ratings did.

How would you feel if you lost your job to someone who was paying to fly? Because that's what's happening here. The next step is someone who passes the line training and buys another block of hours. Twenty more years down the road will that be acceptable?

Just plain wrong
 

If the people paying for the line training are good enough to succeed the type rating course why on earth are they paying for line training as well. Oh how naive(sic) of me, its to get a foothold upon the airline pilot job ladder. Whats wrong with a bit of working your way up the industry from GA to Corporate to Regional to Long Haul (and perhaps back !!!) Why not just buy your way to the airline jet jockey job with a fat 20k odd cheque to Bond or Astraeus. I remember the good intentions of Astraeus when it first started offering type ratings and the potential for a job with a semi-sponsored scheme about 5 years ago. Thats disappeared and instead we see money-no-object idjits gate-crashing a profession for little or no reward. Who is taking who for a ride ???

I imagine that the Astraeus "trainees" working at LHR going to Freetown this summer will be earning less than the cleaners:}:}:}

Jenson

If its true what do balpa have to say about these practices which if true are morally and professionally wrong.I guess you have to work for BA for balpa to get involved:ugh:

Can anybody explain to me why this bs practise is accepted by the IFALPA? To me it seems that they have never done anything to stop it, that`s why I say that they accept it. :yuk: They`re good at looking after their union mates and all (yes I`m a member), but what about the future members and their right for employment on an equal basis? :ugh: This really bugs me, since a lot of good pilots who have worked their way through instructor jobs to GA companies, even corporate, are getting bypassed by inexperienced pilots straight out of flight school and a fresh TR just because they have paid their way to the airlines. Disgusting. :yuk::=

'LHR going to Freetown'. Freetown .... the poor buggers :}

I fully understand your opinion, and whilst now that I have a proper flying job it would be easy to jump on the bandwagon and say ban the desperados who go to these lengths, let's remember that they have got themselves that way by being between a financial rock and a hard place: having thrown good money (and a lot of it) after CPL/IR training without the possibility of financial return on their investment. The problem stemmed from the decision to start training in the first place, not from the decision to pay for a rating or for line training. Too many pilots must be being trained if there is a surfeit of qualified people having to pay to get more experience to get themselves noticed. It's easy to blame them but let's try and remember the desperation which forced them into this in the first place.

Whilst I did not myself have the choice of paying for ratings or line training, if I could have found the funds it would have been a fairly good investment and most probably got me that return on my initial investment (which was beginning to look a total loss at the time) because it would have helped me into a jet salary. Although I was forced to do it the "hard way" by flying a photographer, there weren't many GA jobs around, and I was lucky to get one, especially in my area of the country. This type of work does not pay well, and the two hour each-way drive from home to work cost more than I was earning, so, in a way, I was paying for my hours. Even now, I am so low paid as a turbo prop FO there is little profit after travelling and living expenses, my salary is half that of an Easyjet FO. In a way I am STILL paying for experience, why is that more acceptable?

Without hours and experience few get jobs (although some are lucky), more often than not those hours and experience are required to include turbine and multi crew time. Quite often jet time is the preference.

What's the answer? I've not a clue.

It would help if wanabes were better educated as to the true facts facing them at the end of their initial training. It would also help if it were possible to plan a career strategy and go step by step up the rungs of your flying career, but so much of it depends on luck and being in the right place at the right time, as there are simply not enough jobs to go around at any level of the ladder. Let's not forget that the instructing route generally involves paying for a rating, it just costs less, but then the pay is very low too.

Whilst I can see that having to pay for line training is a poor thing to be asked by an airline, I can see why the trainee does it: to them it is simple logic.

"What have Balpa got say" the answer is Astraeus is an airline that negotiates with the IPA says it all really.VBR Stampe

Unfortunately for wannabes BALPA and IFALPA and the other national pilots bodies across the world have bigger fish to fry. Our T&C's (and yours one day) are under constant attack so efforts tend to get focussed on the more important issues facing members. Things like pensions, pay rises, increases in rostered hours, days off, breaks, layover times downroute, quality of hotels, meals etc etc. Remember also that many of the unions survive by using volunteers from the pilot body and there are only so many hours that they can give whilst balancing work and home life. If you want greater representation then perhaps the best way is to get wannabes to join unions in the first place and lead by example with setting up sub committees to focus on issues specific to that portion of the membership. You could then take the various arguments to the likes of the CAA eg: impact on flight safety with pay for your own type rating f/o's on the flight deck.

hope the pilots have enough money to pay for malaria tablets at 30 quid a go.:hmm:

And lets not forget the biggest of them all . . .
 

What's the big surprise???

Good old Eagle Jet that is doing the exact same thing for ages . . .
What a rip off . .

I'm happy at least to see they have knocked their prices by more them 50% . . it means hopefully that the pay to work enterprise of their isn’t doing very good.
slowly but surely businesses like them will disappear off the face of the earth . .

The original qustion was "Is it true that Astraeus do this?" I know they used to, when they were tied up with Bond. I was under the impression that their relationship had broken up.

If so, do Astraeus still charge for line training or not? Perhaps someone can answer this specifically.

Thanks

Max

I'm really glad to see some intelligent debate on this for once (usually im flamed for being "anti-wanabee" :rolleyes:).

BALPA should do something because it does have a impact on new hire T+C's but in my experience they seem fairly disinterested or ineffective with even small airlines so I doubt we will see any action from them.

Paying for a TR is different in many respects because it is all training and the TRTO (whether its a dedicated facility or part of an airline) is offering a service. As long as there are freelance pilots, we will need TRTOs.

However, the question should be asked whether offering a 757/747 rating to a 150hr pilot is ethical? What exactly are the chances of said pilot finding employment? From my experience, not so good. Hence these hour building programmes springing up (lets be honest, its really not line training).

I think they are getting around employment laws by calling it line training when its blatantly not.

Astraeus has been doing this for at least the past three years. I fly with an ex-Astraeus skipper who stated it felt a bit odd with guy sitting next to him as the f/o who was both a colleague and a customer.

I think it is wrong. However, what do people think about the CTC scheme which places F/Os at the hands of EasyJet and others who are not paid for the first 6 months. This has the same effect on T&Cs but for some reason, people seem to think this is an OK state of affairs.

I don't think the CTC scheme is quite as bad as some of these other schemes for several reasons:

1) CTC cadets don't pay to sit in the RHS to gain experience.
2) An allowance of £1000 as well as duty pay and sector pay are paid to the trainee.
3) They are almost certain to be offered a permanent contract at the end of the 6 months (especially Easyjet), hence companies aren't (in the main) using this as a way to get cheap employees for 6 months before letting them go.
4) The type rating is paid for by the airline, so not only is the trainee not paying for line training, but they get a free type rating.

However, maybe I'm biased as I'm an ex-ctc cadet ;)

It is a very sad situation but a few years ago pilots were offering for pay for their type ratings, nowadays I receive numerous applications whereas they seem to have accepted that a type rating (only) will not secure them a job and they are asking to buy hours on type.

Whist Astraeus might have been one of the forerunners in selling hours just have a look at the prices that eaglejet.net are charging, it's scandalous.

Who knows where it will end, first pilots paid for 100 hours, now 300 or 500 hours, what next?

I believe said operator has ONE F/O going through line training under this arrangement at present.

I would question the motive of the thread starter.

Paying for Line Training
 

In an answer to someones question...'Are Astraeus still doing this.'

Yes they are, I know of a few people who have went down this route after completing their 757-200 TR with Bond. From what I believe, if Astraeus were recruiting on this fleet, a cadet straight out of Bond Aviation who may have been approached by the airline via the TR provider would be informed that if they wished to be considered for the position they would have to purchase the line training package prior to any offer :eek: This is the story that circulated round my FTO when a number of guys straight out of their IR training signed up to the Bond/Astraeus program.

As said before, Eaglejet have been doing this for years....and from what I believe don't do a great job of it either. Recent stories from the wanabee forum involved people embarking on training with Eaglejet and Royal Air Maroc. Little good was said about the way it had been arranged. However I have little sympathy for anyone who signs up for these sort of deals and gets treated badly. More fool them!

There is also a company based in the UK called Sigmar which offers the TR/Line Training package on the A320. Their partner airline is no other than My Travel! Similar scenario to Astraeus, but with 350 hours.

I'm sure there are others, however they may not be as common

Hi Heffer,I have no motif as you suggest.I was just having a drink the other night down route and the conversation came up in a roundabout way talking about rock groups.Iron maiden came up which somehow led to Astreus!!.Judging the reaction so far i think my question has struck a nerve amongst pilots.I'm sure that the travelling public would also raise an eyebrow or two.
Cheers,kingsurf.

Industrial, professional and moral issues aside, how about the safety issues?

Most of those FOs who are paying to fly must surely need money to live, and unless they have managed to get a very nice source of funds from their relatives or banks, they would need to take on a second job to live on? What would that do for fatigue, concentration, etc?

Astraeus are only trying to make an extra pound..:suspect:

Got to finance managements wives working as secretaries somehow.

Shags

Whatever you think of this kind of scheme, it has been a tremendous way for low experience pilots to get straight onto a jet,
If you have the money and ability then why not ?As we all know its a cut throat world out there and you need to get ahead of the opposition somehow...

The passengers are getting 2 qualified crew as both have type ratings. the argument abour low houred pilots is rubbish because this is no different to what virtually every airline does in the uk. BA, Thomsonfly,Ryaniar, Easy, Jet2, First Choice, thomas cook etc etc, all do line training on their 737/757/320 fleets for low houred pilots. Are they also shortchanging their passengers then?So the ONLY difference is that the person in the seat is paying instead of getting paid.

This is a useful facility, I disagree that people should have to pay for all line training, but what do you do if you were taken on by an airline , did your TR but before you finished your line training the airlines ceased operation? Its not ideal having to pay for line training but in certain cases it can be beneficial to getting work again.

St.Paul, 2 qualified crew? Meaning 4 pilots? I think you mean 2 type rated pilots, of which one has been qualified as commander due to his or her level of experience. For the F/O.... if the only difference is that he or she is getting paid or giving the airline money, well that`s 2 different worlds. :yuk:

Yes, airlines put their new-hires on line training, of course, how else will they get the experience? But this all happens AFTER they have gone through the airline`s selection process, passed the airline`s TR and are out on line with the airline`s training Captains. What could the difference be....? :rolleyes::mad:

Fade to grey, there are always at least 2 sides to every story. Have the money and ability is one way of putting things. Another way could be not being able to get hired by the smaller companies first. Or even as an FI. Or even worse - getting fired by either small companies or flight schools (as FI) because you`re just not competent enough to hack it. Next step smells like a SF TR to me. And that`s what makes me very sceptical to all operators who have this policy.

They may have the money but not necessarily the skill, they have paid to sit there.

But that actually IS line training with a view to keeping the cadet as a long term employee who will become an experienced pilot. What Astreaus and others are doing is not line training, its hour building! After the cadet has his 100, 300 or 500 hours its time for the next wannabe to take his place.

Well that's a BIG difference. :hmm:

pro·fes·sion·al

1. a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career
3. Performed by persons receiving pay
4. Having or showing great skill; expert


Its the difference between a professional pilot and an amature.

Trouble is I've bumped into loads of guys who had trouble getting all their hours at AEU as the next guy came up behind them expecting to get his 100 hours.

Saying that, chaps have been bowling up at my airline having done their time at AEU on the 757 so in that respect it has got them to a point where they actually get a chance of a job.

Course I don't really agree with paid hour building but you don't spend all that money training to just mingle with the other supermarket manager lookalikes at the BALPA conference.

I also don't like the attitude of these hour building outfits as you're expected to be humble, grateful and a pain if you complain or expect your actual hours.

Astraeus/Bond, Sigmar, Eaglejet...whoever! People are still going through these schemes and jumping the line to the RHS. I should know; having been through the process with a lo-co for nearly 8 months, only to be turned round to and told I wasn't getting the job because I didn't have the TR and the time on type. I was later to learn that people who had paid for their TR/line training had become sucessful.

So there you go, it's obviously working for some people. Many would say 'fair play - if you have the money, do it.' These guys must have had a bit of ability to get through everything, even if they paid for it! I don't agree with it, but who cares what I think! Certainly not the person who paid for his 100, 200 or 350 hours in the RHS of his Boeing or Airbus and got a job out of it as a result! :(

CK, that wasn't the company you and I were talking about over christmas was it?

If it was.....I'm furious for you:mad::mad::mad:

What is wrong with us pilots that we allow this sort of thing to become acceptable? It's no good blaming the inexperienced people for this. All the SFO's Skippers and management pilots who sit back whislt their companies "employ" people on this basis and do nothing should hang their heads in shame.

If it doesn't pay to do it then don't do it. However, I think the maths must work out in favour of the pilot because there is a queue of wannabes who want to do it.

It seems implausible to me that intelligent pilots cannot work out the cost-benefit case. Pilots choose an expensive - but highly rewarding (in terms of job satisfaction and remuneration) - career and it costs a lot to get to a point where the money rolls in. Some choose to mitigate the expense by getting the taxpayer to fund their training but for many the incovenience of 18 years military service means they have to fund their first steps up the airstairs.

Pilots are not unique in this regard. Most HGV drivers fund their own training as do a substantial proportion of bus/coach drivers, builders, plumbers, joiners, divers etc - whilst the cost of training is lower so are the ultimate rewards. How many careers are there where the wannabe doesn't do some of the funding.

No investment, no reward......that's life!

Please let me know where I can find someone that will pay me to :

Deliver goods to my house
Take my kids school on the next school visit
Fix the heating of my house
Do a loft conversion for me
Build me a wooden shed
Dive down to clean the hull of my boat

I am always willing to give a helping hand to young profesionals starting out. I am also not limited to the profesions above and I am specially willing to help tax accountans, lawyers, hoteliers, cooks, taxi drivers, mechanics, cleaners, gardeners and many others.

Consider though the option of getting a type rating without any line flying.
At least by actually flying the aircraft the standard of training has to be up to scratch for Astraeus to put the F/O's out on the line. There could be a view that some scrape through sim training and get signed up just because the TRE know's they are not going to the host airline ? :\

Say again s l o w l y

Whilst I and many other agree with your sentiments, trying to get your company to change its recruitment procedures is like hitting your head against a brick wall - have you ever tried? I am not a Ashtraysrus pilot but my company has a scheme where new F/Os are bonded for X years and the money is docked out of their gross salary over the bond period. I have pointed out to the powers that be that this does not serve as a bond since crews pay in the long term if they stay or go! Have things changed - no and the people behind this are the Beancounters and not Flight Ops management. That probably goes across the board!

These are tactics that will be hard to shift for many companies! It is not as simple as us older farts making noises to management.