Ryanair Unionization
 

Now that ALPA is reportedly ready to help Ryanair form a union, I'm curious if anyone has seen anything up here on PPRUNE? I don't see anyone talking about it yet.

Jetwhine

I doubt that Ryanair wants any help in starting a union!

The pilots might like some help but it looks like most of them can't be bothered :ugh:

Ryanair
 

I didn't word that very well, did I?

I meant that the pilots and the union seem to be talking. If ever there was company management that will fight unionization to the death, I'm sure Ryanair would be at the top of the list.

That's why I thought this was such an interesting topic when I heard abou it yesterday.

Jetwhine

Are you talking about Ryan International Airlines of the USA or Ryanair Ltd of Ireland? I cannot see what on earth ALPA would have anything to do with an Irish airline.

Ryanair
 

I did indeed mean Ryanair the Irish carrier. But it's the BALPA that is reportedly helping them organize. My mistake.

Jetwhine

Best of luck to all the airline pilots associations with their efforts to unionise ryanair. And it will take an enormous amount of effort. Unfortunately there still exists a disappointing level of short sightedness and lack of cohones within a critical threshold of the pilot body.

I believe it is essential that ryanair pilots develop the organisational tools to threaten strike with credibility or if necessary, implement it.

To this people say:

'But ryanair as a company financially strong enough to absorb any length of strike action'

In fact O' Leary has said this himself quite publicly on a number of occasions. He has actually dared his pilots to go on strike! But as we all know well by now, the only time we can be sure he isn't telling a lie is when his mouth is closed. O' Leary says this continually for a reason: It is because he IS concerned about the potentially devasting effects of a strike.

Ryanair is like a shark in the sea: it has to keep moving forward to breathe. Low cost product and high rate of expansion mean that continuous operations are essential to ensure profit. Costs of simply keeping 100+ aircraft sitting on the tarmac for a few weeks are actually quite staggering.

But as Michael would say this is all a 'pipedream'. He might even believe it when he considers how successful his efforts have been to create a divided pilot body where many look only as far as medium term security for themselves or their familes.

But the extent of condecending abuse that many ryanair pilots idly accept from ryanair management, not only impacts themselves and their families. It also deprives the remaining majority within the company of well deserved conditions and respect.

Not only that but the apathy of ryanair pilots constituting the 'critical threshold' are affecting terms and conditions across many airlines. Managements all around europe are successfully re-negoting lower pilot salaries stating that it is vital in order to maintain competitiveness against strong performers like ryanair where the cost base is so low.

I'm aware that there are logistical problems to sustaining a union (or unions) within ryanair: i.e. the high rate of FO resignation for greener pastures - movement of pilots around bases to interrupt cohesion - contract pilots - effective communication in the presence of a highly ruthless management ... etc

All I can say is that I am hopeful and that I implore you to consider the responsibility you may wish to take for 'the career of the airline pilot'.

The Ryanair - IALPA CHICKENS banner at the top of the Pprune home page is duly noted. I was about to make a contribution to Pprune to register my username. I've changed my mind.

The Darkside approaches
 

CarbHeatIn I completely I agree with you. Danny and co I am disappointed you allowed it. I thought this was a forum for Professional Pilots to air their views(onesided and all as they often are), to be greeted on the home page by that banner headline from a company hell-bent on destroying this profession is more than I can accept. This is my last post.
Slan agus beannacht libh go leir! (goodbye and God bless you all)
Saint Patrick

There is only one word to describe Ryan Air's shameless mocking of pilots and our profession in that banner....


DISGUSTING.

And the same applies to whoever at pprune allowed it to be put on here. Sold, for the price of 350 quid.

Typical abuse of democracy by Ryanair. An example of the amorality linked to an unhealthy extreme of capitalism.

Of course PPrune disappoint, but ironically, the whole thing strengthens resolve.

On a day when our profession is brought into the spotlight in a positive light for a change it is simply disgusting that the owners of this website will accept money to display a banner like this on the homepage. Sky news are plugging this site all day and will more than likely have many new non aviation observers checking in on it for the first time.
To be met with a banner like that regardless of your opinion on unions is nothing short of a complete mockery by this company of all in our profession. And the biggest mockers of all are the owners of this website who allow something like this to be displayed. It makes me sick. :mad::mad::mad::mad:

What angers me the most is that in no way is this banner advertising which might benefit their business.
What do Ryan Air gain from putting it on here apart from gloating about their "victory".

This banner can only be interpreted as a calculated and planned effort to insult and mock.

Why oh why are their pilots so spineless that they allow these kinds of things to happen. A simple strike is all it would need to :mad: them over good and proper.

As for pprune allowing this banner to be posted, shame on you.

Agreed. Scumair has reached lower than low!

it may well be expected from Ryanair but what the hell is pprune doing having that kind of propoganda on its website, it is not advertising but a pure and simple piss take.

sort it out pprune

I am a Ryanair pilot and I regularly have to endure vicious anti-pilot association propaganda from the people who call themselves managers in Ryanair (including on the internal ops website Crewdock). I am appalled to see PPrune allowing itself to be used as a public platform for the same poison by misuse of its banner adverts.

The banner for me is the final straw. If their own pilots are too spineless to stand up to them, someone else is going to have to.

Wonderboy's comments of

"Not only that but the apathy of ryanair pilots constituting the 'critical threshold' are affecting terms and conditions across many airlines. Managements all around europe are successfully re-negoting lower pilot salaries stating that it is vital in order to maintain competitiveness against strong performers like ryanair where the cost base is so low. "

are very worrying indeed. I seroiously believe that if they continue their seemingly un-stoppable march to a) be the biggest airline in Europe and b) to devalue and errode the terms and conditions of their pilots it can only mean bad news for all of us. The 40, maybe 30 grand jet captain will become the norm. As someone who has only just recently entered this profession I did not get into this game to earn 40 grand a year as my top career earnings.

So how can we bring this disgusting company down?

I can think of many ways, unfortunaltely most of them would see me end up in jail for many years.

This latest anti pilot diatribe from fr management is a sure and certain indication that the truth posted here on pprune about ryanairs' management,hurts them to the bone.One thing you learn working in ryanair is to look immediatly beyond the obvious.What they do and say often indicates more about their state of mind etc,that what they are actually saying.Knowing the egomaniac sociopath who tops the organisation,this is most definitely a knee jerk reaction to a thorn in his side that he cannot control.what i would say is,CONTINUE to post the truth.

OOOH!!!doesn't the truth hurt mick!!!take it the camel has been retired due to ineffectuality.HOOOORAH!

Whilst the Ryanair ad is an insult, it is also allowing you to post your views about it as it is one of the many ads that allow this site to exist. Why not galvanise your colleagues and use this blatant example of Ryanairs' disgusting bully boy tactics to get some sort of consensus and finally organise yourselves into a cohesive force and show your gutter management that you have finally had enough?

At least you can counter the vile and reprehensible advertising that Ryanair on here for free. You are not being charged to make your point of view known to all and sundry who visit here. So, use this against Ryanair by showing everyone how low Ryanair will stoop. Show everyone who supports this disgusting company by buying cheap tickets that they are doing so on the backs of dedicated workers. Show everyone that they are supporting a management of pariahs and bullies.

Just writing and complaining on here isn't going to do anything. Use this as a prime example of their vile management practices. No wonder many of you are being walked over so often as you obviously seem to fail to be able to grasp the fact that this could be used in your favour. :ugh:

Ryanair
 

badboy raggamuffin makes a very important point, as does mumbo jumbo.

The real problem with the Ryanair pilots is that they are affecting the rest of the industry. I won't say they don't care, but perhaps we should say they don't care enough ... to the rest of us.

Pilots getting screwed on money and schedules is never going to affect how passengers thing of Ryanair though. The only leverage anyone will have is when they make a link to these issues and the safety of the airline.

When passengers feel threatened, they'll listen.

But since we obviously have at least one Ryanair pilot here, let me ask ... why don't the other pilots seem to care much about their working conditions ... at least enough to take any action?

You're flying Boeings, so you must have a defined level of experience. Does everyone want to fly from Ireland so badly that they will put up with anything to be based there?

Their main base isn't even in Ireland and as long as you can pay for a type rating and meet a minumum standard you're in, so ryanair pilots don't necessarily have a defined level of experience simply because they fly Boeings.

Ryanair
 

OK, paying for their own type to get hired is not new. Southwest has been doing that for 30 years and they have no end of great candidates ready to work for a great airline.

But anyone with a PPL and a multi can buy a type rating. The Ryanair site says they should have 500 in a Boeing to get hired in the right seat. Obviously should doesn't mean they must. And they hire captains off the street?

Is there no senority list at Ryanair?

I'll tell you one thing though that I bet is a strong draw to get people to stay ... being home every night. I talk to a lot of pilots to whom the thrill of hotels and overnights have worn off long ago. But I also bet those pilots are older. Has anyone ever seen a demographic breakdown of Ryanair pilots?

I can see it. We'll treat you like hell during your workday, but you'll be back at home base every night whether it's ...

• London-Stansted
• Dublin
• Shannon
• Cork
• Glasgow-Prestwick
• East Midlands
• Liverpool
• Bristol
• Luton
• Belfast City
• Barcelona-Girona
• Madrid
• Valencia
• Alicante
• Marseille
• Brussels-Charleroi
• Stockholm-Skavsta
• Frankfurt-Hahn
• Bremen
• Dusseldorf-Weeze
• Milan-Bergamo
• Pisa-Florence
• Rome-Ciampino

This might be harder to walk away from than we think.

Communism
 

It's the way RYR management is built up on.Communism.
It's built on fear.Pilots are afraid to stand up for them self.From day one you've been told to stay low and just do as the company tells you to.
If not you will be targeted in diff ways.
Many just think one day ahead and does not realize that they will not give you what they promise.They've done it so many times and will for sure do it again.It's unbeliveable.

Yet another thread full of rubbish. Posted mostly by people who don't know what they are talking about!
Ryanair is a company that makes lots of money. they fly new aircraft. Pilots get home every night. They train to a very high standard, and recruitment standards are high. Other than cadets, pilot pay is well above industry average, and employed pilots fly around 750 hours a year.
There are plenty Pilots out there would give a lot to be part of it.
I agree it is not perfect, but what is?

Nice man, Mr O'Leary
 

Just a gripe, really, but the banner ad running at the top of this website about "IALPA Chickens Out" is not something that we should have to look at.
I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing MOL would stop crowing about how successful he is at pilot bashing.

Mind you, the thought occurs that if MOL is paying Danny each time someone clicks on it.....
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/notic...cken_out_again

Well it's so childish and hard to imagine the mentality of the 'managers' in charge in this airline who would lower themselves to the level witnessed in the banner advert.

Allegedly intelligent individuals who make a lot of money through their ability, yet ridicule people less well off than themselves. Bullies by any other name who know no better and care even less.

Childish if it wasn't so important. Children playing with big boys' toys.

They deserve a legal 'clip 'round the ear 'ole'.

Silly men the lot of them.

SITW :*

Ryanair
 

Probably sounds silly, but has it occured to anyone that the reason the Ryanair folks are not unionized is that they are perfectly happy with the way they are being treated?

Maybe it's just me, but most people here in the states seem to have a very high tolerance for just about anything dished out by their employers, except controllers, especially when they let them fly big new jets.

No, the pilots aren't happy about it. However, not alot will be done about it because there's three types of guys at ryanair:

Pilots who..

1. ..have been there a while (longer than 3 years) and have had enough of the way they're treated. Some may have enough know-how to do something about it, but they need the support of the others..

2. ..are using ryanair as a stepping stone to a larger carrier. They have joined low houred and figured 'i may aswell pay for my tr and get jar25 experience straight away'. These guys have joined for the short term they don't mind what goes on in the company because as bad as it may get they'll only be there for a couple more years.

3. ..have joined because it is a good lifestyle. They've got a family now and want to be home every night. There's a long list of bases to choose from (they're not to know they wont actually get to that base of choice, but even that's not too big of an issue). These pilots would love the 5/4 roster, but nearly all are on 5/3. Now there's a great bargaining chip for MoL.

Pilots 1 would like it changed, but not on their own. Some of the Dublin pilots tried it, with almost zero support, and it didn't work- and how ryanair love to wipe that all over the press, warning off any other attempts ("it cost x amount of euros and they lost")
Pilots 2 don't really mind either way, would be nice if it changed, but not worth getting on the wrong side of managament over
Pilots 3 are quite happy, they'll stay out of it because they've got families to worry about

Now that may be generalising but I think it's pretty accurate. Also I hold nothing against any of these pilots, they all they're (very valid) reasons.

B.Bear

ps .. I also find it utterly disgusting that you (pprune) have allowed ryanair to advertise their propaganda. They're trying to scare they're own pilots into not taking action to get what they deserve. Disgusting.

My initial reaction to the banner was initially one of disgust (at Ryanair) then disappointment (at Danny et al). Then I gave it some thought.

1. There is a certain irony in O'Leary paying toward a site that is used, at least in part, to organise his crew into a union. That appeals to me, perhaps I'm warped.

2. Perhaps there's more to this than meets the eye? Maybe the banner was allowed in the hope that it would galvanise Ryanair crew into doing something about it? If this is the case I'd say the short term irritation is far outweighed by the long term benefits.

3. I've been around PPRuNe for a while now and though I don't know Danny personally I very much doubt he and his helper monkeys ;) allowed the ad to run purely for the few measly quid they would have been paid for it. I'm sure 'someone' would have weighed up the potential damage to the site from any backlash. If money were the main concern I'd say letting the ad run would be a huge risk.

On reflection I'm inclined to think there's more to it than simply accepting revenue from an advertiser although the ultra-cynical part of me is whispering "But what if they let the ad run knowing it would generate debate and more hits on the site?". Damn my overactive imagination :confused:

I think its brilliant. You've been clearly notified by the management of the airline what they think of your ability to think and work together toward an organized negotiation. They are right or they are wrong. If they are right you should just be quiet because you aren't going to do anything anyway and nobody wants to listen to a bunch of whining. If they are wrong then they have just made the mistake of poking you with a smelly stick in your own clubhouse and perhaps you will stand up and do something about it.

If I were both dissatisfied AND insulted I would thank the website for facilitating my enlightenment.

I can't believe people think that nothing's being done about it. If you don't know the legal history behind it all then please don't comment.

Is that what I said?

It is certainly true I am merely an observer regarding the airline but I am a professional aviator, can I stay? I can read... and as I read it, it appears that there is indeed a shortage of active union supporters, yes or no?

Glad you're mad. Good luck.

Yes that it what you said:

A bunch of whining what?

Sorry for the confusion, "You" meant to refer to everyone at the airline and the rest should pretty much read clearly.

Eh... I still remember my first day in FR in early 2003...There were 12 of us up in East mids to attend this "company" induction course. They accomodate us in this room and after about 20 min this guy named chief crew scheduling (and most of FR people know who I`m referring to), showed up and first thing he said was " Well guys right now FR pilot body consist in about 500 pilot and that means that I have 500 problems, so what I see in this room is just 12 more problems". The speech was suddenly interrupted by the noise of a chair and this guy in his 50s stood up and walked out. We were all frozen apart from the FR boy who carried on with out giving a toss.
About 30 min later the brain wash was over, so few of us went outside for bit of deserved fresh air, and the "old" guy was still there smoking one cigarette after the other, me and another 2 guys went over and asked what was the problem. He smiled and replied" What is the problem??, can`t you guys see the problem, well I can, and you will as well... just takes some years..." Turned out the guy was a Delta captain who was made redundant after 9/11,( and yes few of them came here).
The guy then left in the afternoon and went back to US, never heard of him again.
Now, few years later, every time I see what is going on in this company I remember of him and I`d like to tell him that I can see the problem now... Just hope he gave up smoking and he is happy,reteried and taking the piss of us blind, idiots.
Btw just in case you read this one:you forgot to tell us how to fix the problem!! Maybe just throw the chair and walk out???

Great story, thanks for sharing that one. The smoking thing sounded strangely un-American for airline pilots but there are a few out there (compared to the multitudes elsewhere). (On a side note, the U.S. tobacco companies have been completely thrashed in their U.S. business, its really the rest of the world that now gives them their $$$. Sue their asses. But i digress...)

The answer is simple and difficult.
Organize. Many must become one.
Think like a business comprised of a mob, not a mob just giving the business. It is a business you are in, it is a business mind you should have. (...and not the communist mindset that N4641P appears to swing. Though he may have a very valid gripe about corrupt organizations.)

Ryanair
 

In answer to what can be done, the answer is simple. Anything ... that is safe of course. Right now, you can easily see that if you are a Ryanair pilot, the efforts you're making aren't working.

That's OK. Just try something else.

But the biggest roadblock for the Ryanair pilots isn't Mr. O'Leary, I think. It's the rest of the pilot group.

Plenty of them are perfectly content to sit back and let some other poor goof do the work, take the heat, be suspended, so long as they don't have to do the work themselves. But they'll be there with their paws out when the extra Euros or the days off come around.

That's not simply pilots though, that's part of every one in the world these days. That's a much bigger issue.

But I too digress.

How about a show of hands for the number of Ryanair pilots you guys from that company think you could actually muster to cause a ruckous - a safe one obviously. Would it be 10, 30, 50?

You don't need the entire pilot group, at first. Really.

What you need to get going is a handful of people with some courage and a plan. With a good tactical plan, you can create some awareness.

The goal shouldn't be to piss off Mr. O'Leary as much as to get some press that makes the passengers think twice.

A few really can lead the many, if they plan right.

Big sickie. What'll he do, fire the lot of you? Doubt it. Base by base. 1 each week. Catch the eye of the press for sure. Make the share holders wake up. 1day's pay for much gain, perhaps?

Please stop thinking about it out loud. We've heard it all before, for many years. Still waiting for someone to light the blue touch paper. Is it a case of everyone is afraid of geting their fingures burnt? No pain no gain.

Ryanair
 

Rat5 is right on the money.

No one else can do the work. Some of us can help you plan the tactics, but someone in the pilot group needs the testosterone organs to get it going.

Maybe a better question is what about that percentage of the group that BongleBear said have had enough. That's all the folks you need to get going. I've done it and it isn't that hard.